So a lot of nice things trigger off charge. Rhino charge allows you to ready a charge (standard action).
Would it then be legal to:
1. Charge someone (maybe getting a full round attack thanks to pounce)
2. Next round, move away, either taking an attack of opportunity or tumbling
3. Ready a charge condition : "anyone acts"
4. Charge the same target again, full attack
5. Repeat next round.
Prototype00
You'd have to consult the GM. Readied actions can be ridiculous to adjudicate at times. "Anyone attacks" could triggered by your allies attacking. Our personal game requires a more specific trigger to try and keep things more sane.
AFAIK it is legal, though you would have to set more specific trigger.
Though I'm not sure what would happen if you set trigger "A does anything" and A charges you. Then you 2 would simultaneously charge each other - which is a bit strange.
AFAIK it is legal, though you would have to set more specific trigger.
Though I'm not sure what would happen if you set trigger "A does anything" and A charges you. Then you 2 would simultaneously charge each other - which is a bit strange.
Your readied action would happen before their charge, your charge would go through, possibly ruining their charge by blocking the direction they were planning on going.
Why couldn't you ready "When the next person in the initiative order acts." Then you go right before the next person acts, which is still effectively your initiative? Or does that break the rules:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character.
The rules as I read them don't seem to specify "When next person in Initiative Order acts" (and it could be an ally, for sure), as a non valid triggering condition.
prototype00
Yeah, there is really no such thing as "a non-valid trigger" as long as it's not metagamed.
You could set the trigger to be "when my character feels it would be a good idea" and it's perfectly legal. Of course, your GM could disagree.
So you take a Move action to move away, and ready (as a standard action) a charge (as allowed by the Rhino Charge feat). Then when your readied action triggers, you charge (and you can also move up to your speed as allowed by the feat) right up into your targets grill.
prototype00
Why couldn't you ready "When the next person in the initiative order acts." Then you go right before the next person acts, which is still effectively your initiative? Or does that break the rules:
...prototype00
In my game a ready action have to be ready For somthing that the PC Can see and not a abstraction in the game mechanic.
I was not Aware that one needed a special ability to ready a standard action charge. I have always allowed that.
A charge is normally a full round action, as per the core rules. You can only charge as a Standard action if there is No Way for you to take a full round action. As a GM, of course you can make all the rule changes you like, but RAW, you are implementing the rules incorrectly.
As to readying the action, it could be "I know that Rastlov went right after me previously. This time, when I see him acting, I'll put my own plan into action to co-ordinate our efforts". There you go, no abstraction required.
Even the most Iron Fisted DMs should have no problem with that logic.
prototype00
You get extra attacks (like for rake on a charge) also, Horn of the Criosphinx and Janni Rush for double Strength bonus (x2.5 with Dragon Ferocity) and double Unarmed Strike damage both trigger on a charge.
prototype00
A charge is normally a full round action, as per the core rules. You can only charge as a Standard action if there is No Way for you to take a full round action. As a GM, of course you can make all the rule changes you like, but RAW, you are implementing the rules incorrectly.
As to readying the action, it could be "I know that Rastlov went right after me previously. This time, when I see him acting, I'll put my own plan into action to co-ordinate our efforts". There you go, no abstraction required.
Even the most Iron Fisted DMs should have no problem with that logic.
prototype00
But Rastlov going before or after you is meta knowledge and it would not go in my game. No one take turns in Real battle.
And i still Think the Can only take a standard action criteria is fulfilled in a ready action.
Don't forget Rhino Hide armor for the extra 2d6 damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But Rastlov going before or after you is meta knowledge and it would not go in my game. No one take turns in Real battle.
And i still Think the Can only take a standard action criteria is fulfilled in a ready action.
Fair enough, Cap. Darling, we shall disagree as equals.Please enjoy your game then, as I will be sure to endeavour to enjoy mine.
Don't forget Rhino Hide armor for the extra 2d6 damage.
Did not enter my considerations as I have Monk/Druid on the brain currently, but I'm sure it is useful for a lot of builds.
prototype00
The trigger must be perceivable by the character. Since all combatants are in combat, then they are constantly fighting, not 'taking turns' which is a metagame construct.
That said, it should be relatively simple to think of something a creature can perceive.
'Ready Action' itself is a metagame aspect, so your argument is nonsensical.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can only charge as a standard action when you are limited to a standard action. When I say limited I mean "external forces". You choosing to take a standard action is not what is meant.
You can only charge as a standard action when you are limited to a standard action. When I say limited I mean "external forces". You choosing to take a standard action is not what is meant.
The feat, Rhino Charge, is a special exception.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.
Normal: Charging is a full-round action and allows you to move twice your speed.
You can only charge as a standard action when you are limited to a standard action. When I say limited I mean "external forces". You choosing to take a standard action is not what is meant.The feat, Rhino Charge, is a special exception.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.
Normal: Charging is a full-round action and allows you to move twice your speed.
Maybe Wraithstrike is replying to Cap. Darling and not myself?
prototype00
Now, I cant' find the quote. In any event I thought someone was saying this can be done as part of the normal rules, not via a feat, so maybe I misread something.
Now, I cant' find the quote. In any event I thought someone was saying this can be done as part of the normal rules, not via a feat, so maybe I misread something.
No Porto is rigth it was me.
I was saying that that is how i play it. And i realize that others do it differently.I dont see the outside force in the rule. And i like the dynamic of a figth where setting up a thing like counter charge is possible. You and Porto is most likely rigth, and with the rhino charge you most certainly are, but i will just close my eyes to that, in my home game, for now.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I use this with Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Merciless Rush, and Squash Flat.
I charge, attack with a shield slam, bull rush, deal damage, make attack with armor spikes, trip, then move back as far as I need(usually I don't), and then ready an action to charge after, they stand up from being prone.
I use this with Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Merciless Rush, and Squash Flat.
I charge, attack with a shield slam, bull rush, deal damage, make attack with armor spikes, trip, then move back as far as I need(usually I don't), and then ready an action to charge after, they stand up from being prone.
This would work fine in my game.
"Stay Down if you dont want another one, maggot!"
Now, I cant' find the quote. In any event I thought someone was saying this can be done as part of the normal rules, not via a feat, so maybe I misread something.No Porto is rigth it was me.
I was saying that that is how i play it. And i realize that others do it differently.
I dont see the outside force in the rule. And i like the dynamic of a figth where setting up a thing like counter charge is possible. You and Porto is most likely rigth, and with the rhino charge you most certainly are, but i will just close my eyes to that, in my home game, for now.
The real issue is that I dont think PF intended for you to ready a charge to use pounce to get a full round action. If it was just a "one attack" charge I would just ignore the rule.
The confusion isn't helped by the fact that in 3.5 you definately could ready a charge, while in PF you definately cannot...
...all without the rules visibly changing...?
It's like the 'attack action' fiasco all over again!
I don't remember that rule from 3.5, nor do I see it in the SRD. I also don't see it in the PHB.
Aren't readied actions only doable if you haven't done anything else that round?
Aren't readied actions only doable if you haven't done anything else that round?
No, you can ready any standard, move, or swift action on your turn as long as you haven't consumed your Standard action (or used your swift/immediate action).
For example, a Teleporation specialist Wizard could move then ready an action to use his Shift ability to teleport out of the way of a charge if a charge lane opens up on him.
You can even use your move action to draw a weapon, and then ready an action to move to intercept an enemy if he charges.
The benefit of the two above scenarios is you've broken the charge of an enemy, denying him the attacks, though a GM might rule you could still take the attack in the second scenario.
The real issue is that I dont think PF intended for you to ready a charge to use pounce to get a full round action. If it was just a "one attack" charge I would just ignore the rule.Now, I cant' find the quote. In any event I thought someone was saying this can be done as part of the normal rules, not via a feat, so maybe I misread something.No Porto is rigth it was me.
I was saying that that is how i play it. And i realize that others do it differently.
I dont see the outside force in the rule. And i like the dynamic of a figth where setting up a thing like counter charge is possible. You and Porto is most likely rigth, and with the rhino charge you most certainly are, but i will just close my eyes to that, in my home game, for now.
Would you allow zombies with pounce to make full attacks?
Would you allow zombies with pounce to make full attacks?The real issue is that I dont think PF intended for you to ready a charge to use pounce to get a full round action. If it was just a "one attack" charge I would just ignore the rule.Now, I cant' find the quote. In any event I thought someone was saying this can be done as part of the normal rules, not via a feat, so maybe I misread something.No Porto is rigth it was me.
I was saying that that is how i play it. And i realize that others do it differently.
I dont see the outside force in the rule. And i like the dynamic of a figth where setting up a thing like counter charge is possible. You and Porto is most likely rigth, and with the rhino charge you most certainly are, but i will just close my eyes to that, in my home game, for now.
Nope, not unless it was written into their statblock. Then I would just assume the author intended for them to get a pass even if he forgot to write a specific rules exception.
edit: I tend to have my PC's and NPC's follow the same rules barring exceptions such as the one listed above. Another example is blink dog sorcerers even though they don't have "hands" or an equivalent.
From the SRD:
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Everything here seems to be in order (at least in a legalistic sense). If you don't want to drop in initiative count, I would ready the charge for "when I'm 10 or more feet away from the target", and then start moving away with the move action after readying.
|
I don't remember that rule from 3.5, nor do I see it in the SRD. I also don't see it in the PHB.The confusion isn't helped by the fact that in 3.5 you definately could ready a charge, while in PF you definately cannot...
...all without the rules visibly changing...?
It's like the 'attack action' fiasco all over again!
This is because the same form of words (can only partial charge if you are limited to a standard action) could be interpreted either way. You are limited to a standard action when you ready. Neither rulesset tells you whether choosing to ready, and thus be limited to a standard action, allows or disallows the rule for partial charge.
So we know that PF disallows it through dev comment/FAQ, and we know that 3.5 allows it because of FAQ, Sage Advice, official examples which use a readied partial charge in the example, etc.
In fact, a partial charge was one of the main uses for the ready action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you don't want to drop in initiative count, I would ready the charge for "when I'm 10 or more feet away from the target", and then start moving away with the move action after readying.
This you certainly cannot do, as you can't take an action after the ready. "Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied"
@bbt: I've been wanting to build a spiked armor bull rush/overrun warrior for some time now and that sounds way better than anything I came up with. Any other build recommendations? I would lean s Ranger/Slayer for easy early access to Shield Slam/Mastery, but would likely want to pick up a lot of the prerequs anyway. Brawler seems tempting on the Fighter end but I'm always loathe to give up armor training.
@bbt: I've been wanting to build a spiked armor bull rush/overrun warrior for some time now and that sounds way better than anything I came up with. Any other build recommendations? I would lean s Ranger/Slayer for easy early access to Shield Slam/Mastery, but would likely want to pick up a lot of the prerequs anyway. Brawler seems tempting on the Fighter end but I'm always loathe to give up armor training.
I love BBT's build idea too, so I'm adapting it as an NPC. Try going with the Shield Champion Brawler. At 5th level, you can ricochet a thrown shield off enemies to return it to you and if you have multiple attacks (like from Brawler's Flurry or high BAB), you can make all attacks via ricochet (hit one guy, bounce it off him and hit another, bounce it off him and returns to you).
With Shield Slam and Squash Flat, you can then throw your shield, hit multiple people and trip them all by ricocheting your shield of them.
Very 'evil' Captain Andoran-ish.
This you certainly cannot do, as you can't take an action after the ready. "Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied"
I was going to say "But that's still before your next turn", though it says next action, not next turn. So you are correct - good catch, btw - albeit it's not a difficult hurdle to surmount. (Move 10' away beforehand and say, "I'll ready an action to charge as soon as I'm 10' away from my opponent... Which I am now.")
Would you allow zombies with pounce to make full attacks?The real issue is that I dont think PF intended for you to ready a charge to use pounce to get a full round action. If it was just a "one attack" charge I would just ignore the rule.Now, I cant' find the quote. In any event I thought someone was saying this can be done as part of the normal rules, not via a feat, so maybe I misread something.No Porto is rigth it was me.
I was saying that that is how i play it. And i realize that others do it differently.
I dont see the outside force in the rule. And i like the dynamic of a figth where setting up a thing like counter charge is possible. You and Porto is most likely rigth, and with the rhino charge you most certainly are, but i will just close my eyes to that, in my home game, for now.
Yes.
I'm specifically looking for a more in-your-face build, not a ranged thrower. As a side note, the religious prerequs on those feats really bugs me, but I doubt a hand-waive there will be an issue.
@bbt: I've been wanting to build a spiked armor bull rush/overrun warrior for some time now and that sounds way better than anything I came up with. Any other build recommendations? I would lean s Ranger/Slayer for easy early access to Shield Slam/Mastery, but would likely want to pick up a lot of the prerequs anyway. Brawler seems tempting on the Fighter end but I'm always loathe to give up armor training.I love BBT's build idea too, so I'm adapting it as an NPC. Try going with the Shield Champion Brawler. At 5th level, you can ricochet a thrown shield off enemies to return it to you and if you have multiple attacks (like from Brawler's Flurry or high BAB), you can make all attacks via ricochet (hit one guy, bounce it off him and hit another, bounce it off him and returns to you).
With Shield Slam and Squash Flat, you can then throw your shield, hit multiple people and trip them all by ricocheting your shield of them.
Very 'evil' Captain Andoran-ish.
I recently did a build for a replacement pc starting at level 9. With it I went fighter (brawler) 3/ brawler (mutagenic mauler) 6.
As traits I recommend shield trained (gorum) and shield bearer (human/ulfen).As the brawler can only TWF with full attacks you loose access to all feats with TWF as prereq for single attacks. So it could be good to
take it sometime.
Edit: According to printed sources spiked shield + bashing stacks for 2d6 damage BTW. Only a random comment from a paizo guy disputes it but that was never backed up by anything printed. But the scarred wanderer NPC uses this combo. It's in the NpcCodex.
The shield trained trait May be counterproductive if one uses power attack.
|
|
@bbt: I've been wanting to build a spiked armor bull rush/overrun warrior for some time now and that sounds way better than anything I came up with. Any other build recommendations? I would lean s Ranger/Slayer for easy early access to Shield Slam/Mastery, but would likely want to pick up a lot of the prerequs anyway. Brawler seems tempting on the Fighter end but I'm always loathe to give up armor training.
Mine is a Brawler, with a two level Ranger dip.
Also, this is a Hobgoblin, but that's not integral to the build.
Question: is rhino charge an extraordinary ability? Or only class abilities get pegged like that?
It is a feat as mentioned by the OP and linked to a bit further down.