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Me friend Staff Magus tenth level, have Staff Weapon (Su) ability.
He make magic staff.
Yes, can pick (see FAQ/Errata) use caster level twenty for +5 craft DC.
Make staff with one first-level spell cost ten charges. Cost 400 gp x 1 spell level x 20 caster level / 10 charges per casting = 800 gp.
Ta da!
Well I'll be...
1. While the rules say that caster level can be lower than the caster's actual level, nowhere does it say it can be set higher than the caster's actual level. Your friend's staff magus is only 10th.
2. Your math is off. The formula for staves is 400gp x spell level x caster level. 400 x 1 x 20 = 8000, not 800.
3. Prereq for the Craft Staff feat is Caster Level 11th.
8000 gp. You don't divide by the charges the staff has...
Still, 8000 for a +5 weapon that can cast a 1st level spell ain't bad.
EDIT: Ninja'd on the price, but the 20th level caster thing is still legit. The only prerequisite for magic items that cannot be ignored by upping the craft DC is the item creation fest (and relevant spell if it's a completion/trigger item like a potion or such...)
Craft Staff requires level 11 to begin with, so him friend no make magic staff after all.
Umm... yeah... well there's that too. um.
8000 gp. You don't divide by the charges the staff has...
Read better. "Divide the cost of the spell by the number of charges it consumes to determine its final price."
Craft Staff requires level 11 to begin with, so him friend no make magic staff after all.
He multi-classed, have trait.
The 800 gp price is correct, you do divide the cost of the staff by the number of charges consumed by the spell. However, Magical Knack doesn't raise CL above hit dice, so that doesn't work. Still... not that big a deal to have a +5 staff at 11th level. You blew a feat on it, after all. It's a nice trick, but not broken. It might be a problem if your DM is allowing you to just buy the custom staff at low levels, though.
It's a nice trick, but not broken.
Apparently nice trick for test reading comprehension broken. Golarian need LSAT question?
nope.
you dont divide with charges for staves.
their pricing already assumes charges as seen in my quote from craft rules above.
Correct, all staffs always have 10 charges. However, each spell on the staff may consume more than one charge per invocation, as per the rules:
"If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at less than the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell drains additional charges from the staff. Divide the cost of the spell by the number of charges it consumes to determine its final price."
It's a nice trick, but not broken.Apparently nice trick for test reading comprehension broken. Golarian need LSAT question?
1. While the rules say that caster level can be lower than the caster's actual level, nowhere does it say it can be set higher than the caster's actual level. Your friend's staff magus is only 10th.
Dot
1. While the rules say that caster level can be lower than the caster's actual level, nowhere does it say it can be set higher than the caster's actual level. Your friend's staff magus is only 10th.
It actually does say that CL can be set higher. As per "Lipto the Shiv" above, all prerequisites other than the feat itself can be ignored for +5 to the Spellcraft DC. CL is just another prerequisite. Unless you are aware of another specific rule that overrides this? If there is one, I would be interested to know about it.
all prerequisites other than the feat itself can be ignored for +5 to the Spellcraft DC.
False for staves. "In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites."
But caster level choice neither requirement nor prerequisite.
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Oh no a magus with a +5 weapon!
isn't there a drow feat that allows a staff user to treat a magical staff with charges as equal to +1 for every 2 charges in it?
I'm with the majority here in that I simply wouldn't allow the magus to make a CL 20 staff. That said, it's technically RAW. It's the same reason that a level 5 expert with a +30 modifier to his skill can make a +5 weapon without even having a caster level.
I'd justify it in that the character would have to at least initially cast the spell at level 20 into the staff during construction, which would require an archmage on hand or a lot of level 20 scrolls. All of a sudden, you aren't talking 800 gp anymore.
The difference here is that a 'weapon staff' is of fine construction, while a 'spell staff' needs that caster level for the spells. You can have a 'weapon staff' at CL 20 that houses spells at cl 5. It's not a dichotomy, and the crafting rules are pretty clear that you do have to be able to cast the spell at the appropriate level into a spell-staff/wand/whatever. Casting spells at level 1 into a staff and expecting a level 20 result just doesn't roll.
==Aelryinth
The caster level thing isn't about requirements; most staves only have the usual CL 8 requirement, and you're already past that if you're crafting staves. That doesn't mean that you can set the resulting item to any caster level you like, though. You can set it to your caster level or lower. Where does it say that you can set the caster level higher?
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If you are creating a staff from the book then it would be set at the book price. If you are deviating from the CL in the book then you are creating a custom staff which will affect the price, but also requires GM approval.
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The OP seems to be making a custom staff. As for price, caster level is basically immaterial to the price of most staves since the wielder uses her own caster level for its spells. It only matters for dispel magic and abilities like this.
Regardless, I would not allow making an item with a caster level higher than the crafter. (Crafting an item with a higher listed CL is different; the item is still craftable, just at a lower caster level, usually to no effect.)
The OP seems to be making a custom staff. As for price, caster level is basically immaterial to the price of most staves since the wielder uses her own caster level for its spells. It only matters for dispel magic and abilities like this.
Regardless, I would not allow making an item with a caster level higher than the crafter. (Crafting an item with a higher listed CL is different; the item is still craftable, just at a lower caster level, usually to no effect.)
I see what you mean now, and I agree. That is not even possible from my reading of the rules.
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the +5 to dc to get by a request you don't have just mean you can craft the staff without being level 20 caster. it does not mean you make a staff that has a level 20 caster as it's creator caster level.
for example that staff spells when cast will not be cast at 20th caster level it will be cas tat the creator's caster level.
which also mean your pricing is wrong. you do not X20 the price for a caster level you did not infact USE.
(however, you might find a loophole by hireing a level 20 caster cast the spell for the staff while cafting it ...then again that will only mean the SPELL is cast at 20th level. no that the staff craetor is a 20th level caster..)
I use a +5 DC pr level on the caster level prereq. If it is a item that simulates spellcasting.
But i think this looks fine. A +8 quarter staff is not gonna break the game any more than a+6 scimetar with dex and level to damage.
I feel like we have glossed over the idea that he is creating no such thing, that he simply treats a staff like this as a staff with an enhancement bonus of 1/4 it's CL. It's just a staff with ones charge of magic missile to anyone else.
I personally agree that I wouldn't allow a char to create magic items that require a higher CL than they have achieved, but that's simply to slow down creation and incentivize that type of RP.
I reviewed the issue and have come to the following conclusion:
No you can't set CL to 20th by adding +5 to the crafting DC. The FAQ sidebar is clear on this. In this case CL 20 is NOT a requirement to craft a staff with a level 1 spell on it.
Yes you can craft a staff for very little money by making the spell it holds cost more charges to use; 10 charges to activate a level 1 spell DOES reduce the cost of that spell by a factor of ten.
Oh and even with the feat you will have to wait till you are either 11th level or at least 9th level caster with a couple levels in something else using the feat.
NOTE:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
So... you can't use the +5 crafting DC at all with staves which are spell trigger items. I am leaving this separate because I am sure this is an error in print and that it was probably was supposed to mean that you just need to be able to cast the spell in question.
--=+=--
So you could make the cheapest staff you can manage at 11th level which is a staff of cantrip (10 charges per single casting of that one cantrip) made at level 8 CL; the minimum. For (400x0.5x8)/10=160gp that would function as a +2 staff using these abilities.
edit - nevermind this is magus fun I get it now.
Fun trick - not sure how useful it is in the long run.
Not sure about setting a caster level higher than the item crafter's caster level, but the rest of it does work.
An NPC staff magus with a worthless staff (0 level spell, which takes ten charges to activate) would certainly confuse players. Especially if it was the only clue in a crime!
So many ideas.
Dot
Boring: you can take ten on the crafting check, so a +15 would guarantee passing.
I've yet to see anything that says you can arbitrarily raise the Caster Level of an item to whatever point you choose though. It is distinctly and definitively different from a prerequisite because you never have to meet an item's CL. So can somebody source that? And at the same time, explain why I shouldn't be looking into making a CL30 item instead?
Caster items are made at your caster level or the caster level of the core item.
You can not cast above your own caster level so for items such as wands and scrolls that is out.
As for items such as +3 weapons, you get to create that exact item. Any deviation is a custom item requiring GM approval.
If you were to create some random new item that is not in any book such as a napkin of teleportation and the GM decides the caster level is 17 then the item is created at CL 17. If the CL 17 is a crafting requirement then you must also add +5 to the DC to create the item.
Don't staves require multiple spells?
Don't staves require multiple spells?
It is not a "requirement", but that is the idea behind them. You can legally make a staff with only 1 4th level spell for the same price as a 4th level wand, and it will always use your caster level, and always be useful*.
*assuming it has charges left.
Caster level isn't actually a prerequisite, it's just how the DC is set. Of course,that means you have to make a DC 25 spellcraft check or fail
Heh. Item create DC is 5 + caster level. Fail DC by 5 or more make cursed item.
By FAQ/Errata can pick caster level. "He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC)"
Pick caster level huge. Fail DC. Useful for beguiling gift.
I am putting Mordo back in his cage. More fun here.
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Chance of failure has no bearing on the ability to take 10.
Boring: you can take ten on the crafting check, so a +15 would guarantee passing.
I've yet to see anything that says you can arbitrarily raise the Caster Level of an item to whatever point you choose though. It is distinctly and definitively different from a prerequisite because you never have to meet an item's CL. So can somebody source that? And at the same time, explain why I shouldn't be looking into making a CL30 item instead?
Can you cite that? I was under the impression chance of failure and chance of making a cursed item meant you couldn't take 10 on crafting magic.
It would drastically change some things in my game.
Crafting and Take 10: Can I take 10 on the Spellcraft check to craft a magic item?
Yes.
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1) Yes, dividing the price by 10 is right if the spell use ten charges;
2) Yes, you can craft a item that don't fall under this rule
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
with whatever chaster level you wish, as long as the CL is sufficient to cast the spell used;
3) No, you can't make a staff at CL 20 unless you are a character with a CL of 20 as the staff is a spell trigger item and a you need a spell memorized at CL 20 to make it. Same reason for which you can't make a wand with a CL of 20 at level 5.
You can make items above your CL when making wondrous items, rings, weapons and armors, some rod and so on, not when making "potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items".
4) By definition a staff hold more than 1 spell.
A staff is a long shaft that stores several spells.
If a "staff" don't store at least 2 spells it isn't a staff.
So, do you suppose "unchained" will contain new & improved item creation rules? They are sorely needed, as the existing system is far too easily exploitable. Sure, it would work far better with a few minor changes (like making the special prerequisite of 3CL per +1 of a weapon to be a hard limit, or eliminating blood money and false focus exploits, etc) but what's really needed is a new system that isn't backwards-compatible. Which is, as I understand it, the undelying premise of "unchained" - it's "unchained" from the pre-existing DD3.5 legacy.
This said, I had overlooked this detail:
The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
This appears to exclude all potions, wands, staves and scrolls from the +5 DC to ignore prerequisites rule. Am I really reading this right? If so, then I suspect that rather a lot of people are overlooking this detail when making their crafting plans. It doesn't specify *which* prerequisites you can't ignore, so it must be *all* prerequisites.
So, do you suppose "unchained" will contain new & improved item creation rules? They are sorely needed, as the existing system is far too easily exploitable. Sure, it would work far better with a few minor changes (like making the special prerequisite of 3CL per +1 of a weapon to be a hard limit, or eliminating blood money and false focus exploits, etc) but what's really needed is a new system that isn't backwards-compatible. Which is, as I understand it, the undelying premise of "unchained" - it's "unchained" from the pre-existing DD3.5 legacy.
This said, I had overlooked this detail:
The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.This appears to exclude all potions, wands, staves and scrolls from the +5 DC to ignore prerequisites rule. Am I really reading this right? If so, then I suspect that rather a lot of people are overlooking this detail when making their crafting plans. It doesn't specify *which* prerequisites you can't ignore, so it must be *all* prerequisites.
You need the feat. You must have the spell available, which will also automatically include it being cast at the proper level, so I don't think any prereqs can really be skipped. Unlike wondrous magic items there are not likely to be any racial requirements for the spell.
Did I leave anything out?
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Caster level isn't actually a prerequisite, it's just how the DC is set. Of course,that means you have to make a DC 25 spellcraft check or failHeh. Item create DC is 5 + caster level. Fail DC by 5 or more make cursed item.
By FAQ/Errata can pick caster level. "He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC)"
Pick caster level huge. Fail DC. Useful for beguiling gift.
That example is taking extreme liberties with the rules.
1) Dividing the price by charges per use is basically restricted to Staves. In all other cases, you'd simply create items with fewer charges.
2) The only normal items with charges are wands and staves. The rest tend to be unique magic items (like the gems on a Helm of Brilliance).
3) Dividing the price by uses/day is restricted to permanent magical items, not spell completion items. The price difference is a part of the base cost. The logic behind this is simple...a potion is a charged item, usable 1/day. Since it only has 1 charge and is only usable once a day, it's price should really be 1/5th of what the players are being charged, right? YEt that's what you went right ahead and did...divided the cost of a wand by 5, while keeping full charges.
So, you'd apply rule #1 to that Cantrip device, and instantly see that it's equivalent to a wand, and should use the wand rules. The uses/day rule only applies to permanent items, so is not applied.
So, you'd pay for the wand the same as any other. If you want a wand that anyone can use, like a potion, you'll have to double the price.
4) The economics are completely bogus. The actual value of that cantrip maker is 375 gp, like any other 0 level device. If it's a permanent device usable 1/day, it's 2000 gp (base 2000 x .5 cantrip x 1st level x 1/5th). Since it's just a wand in another form, you can't make it with 'partial charges', i.e. use 5 charges an activation, so really a 10 charge wand. You pay for all 50.
Secondly, it is introduced as a cost without a benefit. In other words, the people who 'must' pay for it suddenly aren't rewarded for it.
If you 'must' pay for it without a benefit, then you Don't Pay for it. that's economics. Even if that benefit is 'retain market share', you must get a benefit to shell out the money. Since none of that happens, nobody is going to pay.
That cantrip has value to the average craftsman only at one point...when his skill modifier is low by 1. If the cantrip can push it that 1 pt, then the craftsman can suddenly make something masterwork and reap extra rewards.
But there is no difference in the game pricewise between a DC 12 rope and a DC 15. It's just rope.
Now, if you were making armor, those have scaling DC's, and +1 allows you to make a better suit of armor. If that widget was only 7 gp, that might well be worth the investment of going from making plate to full plate (heck, it'd be a 'raw material cost', if you like). Alas, it's far more expensive then that.
If he's at +9, and the cantrip pushes him to +10, he can then make masterwork. It'll cut into his profits, but the extra funds might even be enough to compensate. Unfortunately, guidance doesn't last long enough to affect 8 hours of crafting work like it has to.
The main value to the cantrip is contested skill checks, such as bluff vs Sense Motive and the like. For these, every random bonus is useful, and the +1 MIGHT give you the edge. But only someone who has money to burn would pay this level of price for an uncertain and minor benefit.
4) The duration of the bonus is 1 minute or until you roll. Craft checks are for 8 hours of work. The cantrip will have NO BENEFIT to any crafter.
5) What would actually happen is that the druids would come into town, and their market might be the courtier engaging in contested skill checks. Nobody else is going to look twice at their offering, because they won't get any economic gain from shelling out the money. Nor will anyone buying their wares see any benefit, so they'll 'make do' with the cheaper stuff that is just as good in all ways. Which is also economics.
The rare corner case where someone is at +9 and the widget pushes him to +10 might be a case, too, if you can find a way to make it last 8 hours for a crafter.
If the widget DOES make an item going from DC 15 to 16 more viable, then guess what? The cost of the wand will be reflected directly in the price of the item, plus a profit level. In other words, the shopkeeper would charge 3x the amount of money spent on cantrip charges as a 'raw material' to recover his costs, and that's what everyone would pay for the item that isn't really any better, it just looks like it.
It would be a fool's play on all sides, and unless charm magic or coercion was employed, have little to no effect on the local economy.
========
So, in summary, that's not a 7 gp item unless you ignore all the magic item creation rules; there must be a benefit if people are willing to put up with the cost; it must last long enough to be useful; and that cost must be definable and logical in order to be shouldered. In most cases, nobody is going to bother to buy the widget, as there's no benefit for doing so in game terms. The only 'leap' in quality is masterwork, which is less a leap in quality then a whole new level. DC 30 plate mail is exactly as valuable as DC 17 in the game.
as for the shelf space example...that's simply a case of underselling glossed up in pretty language. Underselling your competition has been used since trade existed. The competitors had to cut prices and match you to keep their market. Standard fare. It's just a bidding war.
Can you tell I've an economics and finance masters degree?
===Aelryinth
and the 1/day permanent item is 200 gp. Mistyped and added a 0. Oops.
==Aelryinth
I was talking about the 7 gp sample item from the 'magic item that breaks an economy', not the OP's staff, shroud.
===Aelryinth