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I disagree. You are under no obligation to tell others what class you are. It's often very fun to keep them in the dark.
You have an obligation to tell people what role you are. That way people know what to expect of you when problems come up. Depending on your character, this may or may not involve what class you are. (I have one character where telling you his class is misleading - it's better that I just tell you his role and a couple abilities and leave it there. Otherwise you might expect him to do damage.)
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My characters that arent what they seem reveal themselves to the PLAYERS fairly quickly. I also make it clear what their roles are.
My undine disguised as a human has the undine watersinger racial archetype, and I always begin by asking the GM to roll my disguise check.
My "cleric" casts arcane spells that people can clearly identify, and she tells people upfront that "the Inheritor thought it best to give her purely offensive powers to better smite evil demonic obscenities" and that most divine spell trigger/completion items are not capable of handling her supreme holiness and might short out (until she levels a few more times, anyways).
My "alchemist" is a healer just like he says he is. He just keeps dropping his healing bombs "accidentally" and his healing infusions are topical rubs he invented.
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This is always an interesting subject to me.
My Gunslinger/Inquisitor (Jayne Munny) has always been referred to as either a "Lawman" until level 6, when he became a Lawman of Abadar. I'd also describe his well adorned companion, his musket, named Vera.
I've often done this sort of thing (obscuring the Class by describing the vocation). Lady Natalia is a "paladin of Aroden" (actually a Battle Oracle, but she does abide by a Paladin's code... usually). My -1, a rogue named Silbeg, has always introduced himself as an Orator and an Adventurer. All three of these have reasonably well defined physical descriptions (at least in my head).
I try to come up with personality for each of them. I am not always successful until I've played them for a while. Magnus (Natalia's brother and Paladin of Aro... I mean Abadar) has always been very straight-forward, and a little confused. He'd rather be a worshiper of Aroden, who he knows is still around, because his sister gains her power from him... he just must not be worthy. So, he does his best to become worthy.
I learned a couple weekends back at Gamehole Con that Dierdre, my halfling druid that rides a giant scorpion named Lord Snappy has not real clue of what punctuation but it doesn't matter 'cause she's so cute and adorable and eventually you have to breath at which time your sentance can end....
One my shorter introductions is Faustus Aurelius Voralius... Inquisitor of Asmodeus and Auditor. He tells the group that he will be handling the social interactions (in a brusk way), and that he has been trained to be charming (or something like that) if he needs to be. (He's got the Conversion Inquisition, which counters his 7 CHA).
And now I am working on two new characters.
1) Lucius Vizzini -- Ratfolk Thassalonian Sin Wizard (Lust) -- just think of this 3' tall rat wearing a silk shirt unbuttoned to his naval, a great big hat with a peacock feather, gold chains, and a sword cane. Eventually he'll even get his Pimp Dragon, Riddywhipple.
2) Black Jak Sparrow -- Tengu Pirate (Gunslinger/Swashbuckler) -- rather than the stereotypical "Caw!"s, he'll be full of swagger and "Yar".
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To me it comes down to the most important rule. Don't be a jerk. If other players are interested, I'll offer to show them my build after the game (so as not to disrupt), but refusing or being secretive generally detracts from the fun of others and so I avoid doing so. Its like your telling the player you don't trust them enough to share, or maybe you are cheating and don't want them to catch it. That's the sort of thoughts refusing to divulge what should be trivial information invokes. If you just answer nonchalantly and don't' make a big deal of it, nobody else will either.
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I disagree. You are under no obligation to tell others what class you are. It's often very fun to keep them in the dark.You have an obligation to tell people what role you are. That way people know what to expect of you when problems come up. Depending on your character, this may or may not involve what class you are. (I have one character where telling you his class is misleading - it's better that I just tell you his role and a couple abilities and leave it there. Otherwise you might expect him to do damage.)
Role, yes. They don't need to know that my swordsman is actually an 11th-level sorcerer built for melee tanking with a scimitar.
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Quoting this since it got lost on the last page.
I consider it the GM's right to know, who will be informed in secret if I'm playing one of my weird characters. But my fellow players can just wonder...And if they accept "I want you to wonder" that's great. If they don't, telling them to prevent table strife is worth more than any mystery you might engender. (Which will probably be drowned out by the frustration of the other player.)
I have a 10th level kitsune who has only revealed herself in two scenarios. I know where you are coming from, and I know the problems it can cause.
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Role, yes. They don't need to know that my swordsman is actually an 11th-level sorcerer built for melee tanking with a scimitar.
But why not? Really, why? I don't need to know the details of other player's character sheets, but I also don't feel like it's a secret?
I could make a number of assumptions about your reasoning, but I would prefer to hear your side first.
Additionally, I am not necessarily against you. I have tried to describe my character's abilities using in-game language. I.e. my ranger is a "hunter and tracker with a big wolf at his side". Some players have said "So you're a ranger." To which I just reply "yes" rather than worry about the fact that I could be a druid, hunter, animal domain cleric, summoner, etc.
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Just played my first session with my new "Dwarf". He's actually an Oread with:
1) the Dwarf-Blooded feat (which gives you the Slow and Steady + Stonecunning Racial Traits),
2) the Adopted (by Dwarves) Social Trait to pick up a Dwarf Race Trait,
3) the Glory of Old Regional Trait to give him bonuses vs. Spells, SLAs, and Poison,
4) openly worships Torag and wears an Iron Holy Symbol,
5) wearing Dwarven Stoneplate, and
6) wielding a Dwarven Waraxe and Dwarven Boulder Helmet thanks to a Convention Boon.
Given all that, and the fact that Oreads are physically just as short and heavy as Dwarves, I described him as a Dwarf, and never once made reference to him being an Oread.
The GM knew ahead of time what I was really playing because I'd already gone over the concept with him while I was making the character.
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And visually, in character, unless you're actively hiding (via Disguise) any other person could easily (DC 5, take 10) identify you as "not a dwarf."
It can come across to other players as being a jerk, (even if it's harmless,) to say "There's a big secret about my character, but you don't get to know!" When you could just say "He's an Oread that looks like a Dwarf."
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Indeed.
Or, when an enemy Spellcaster tries to cast Dominate Person.
But, really, where does in-character perception cross that line?
I'd say he crossed it a while ago.
Should be treated as an opposed perception vs disguise, no? If an enemy cant tell what you are and tries to use an invalid spell on you, then she is just out of luck. I dont really see any lines being crossed.
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And visually, in character, unless you're actively hiding (via Disguise) any other person could easily (DC 5, take 10) identify you as "not a dwarf."
It can come across to other players as being a jerk, (even if it's harmless,) to say "There's a big secret about my character, but you don't get to know!" When you could just say "He's an Oread that looks like a Dwarf."
"It's a skin condition. No, Remove Disease won't help. Why do you have to be so mean?"
Some players might be offended, some will likely be completely oblivious to it, and others might think it's pretty cool. This is the same general breakdown of any other table activity, including a complete lack of roleplaying or table interaction besides combat.
I would expect that the player share this information with the GM, but that the GM keep the OOC/IC metagame barrier in place for his monsters and enemies.
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And visually, in character, unless you're actively hiding (via Disguise) any other person could easily (DC 5, take 10) identify you as "not a dwarf."
But, really, is Disguise necessary?
He looks, dresses, acts, and believes he's a Dwarf. Born of Dwarves and raised by Dwarves.
Other than his creature type, in-character, he's a Dwarf.
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Oh, disguise makes for fun things.....
Had a Kitsune and myself, a Sylph, try to figure out what we were during the scenario.... When she figured out what I was, I was a tad upset that she found out before I could find out what she was....
Then again, it's kind of easy when my Disguise DC is 13 and she also has Knowledge[Planes].....
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I disagree. You are under no obligation to tell others what class you are. It's often very fun to keep them in the dark.You have an obligation to tell people what role you are. That way people know what to expect of you when problems come up. Depending on your character, this may or may not involve what class you are. (I have one character where telling you his class is misleading - it's better that I just tell you his role and a couple abilities and leave it there. Otherwise you might expect him to do damage.)
Totally agreeing with with James here, I hate it when people put stereotypes on what classes you are playing and assumes you are the role.
player A: Yo! what is your class?
Player B: um.. well, Arron is a cleric of...////// get cut off by the rude player A.
Player A: ah! yes, a healer! here's my wand. me big human fighter, you heal me.
Player B: but.. but.. but I worship Gorum and have higher chance to hit, and do more damage than you.
Player B: (stopped listening already)
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Or in another real world situation:
My PC: (in my character's voice): XXX what do you do? as we just left the mission breifing.
Player A: I am a human occultist.
My PC: wow? what is an occulist, that sounds cool! (this character have not played with a occult playtest classes yet before)
Player A: (get irritated) yells back: i already told you my class, what do you want more?
Me: um well, there's like 200 ways to build an occultist. which one are you.
Player A:(very impatiently) I have a stick, and i hit stuff.
ME: Finally, thank you. for telling me what your character does rather than just tell me his class.
Player A: grumble....grumble...
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Quoting this since it got lost on the last page.
I consider it the GM's right to know, who will be informed in secret if I'm playing one of my weird characters. But my fellow players can just wonder...And if they accept "I want you to wonder" that's great. If they don't, telling them to prevent table strife is worth more than any mystery you might engender. (Which will probably be drowned out by the frustration of the other player.)
I have a 10th level kitsune who has only revealed herself in two scenarios. I know where you are coming from, and I know the problems it can cause.
I personally love mysteries, to me the greatest joy is when the table can't figure out what class/classes I am while being the/one of the most competent party member.
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I personally love mysteries, to me the greatest joy is when the table can't figure out what class/classes I am while being the/one of the most competent party member.
I personally take no joy in the mystery when half the table is hellbent in and out of character on figuring out what the secret is. I prefer to avoid that drama by just telling them.
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And visually, in character, unless you're actively hiding (via Disguise) any other person could easily (DC 5, take 10) identify you as "not a dwarf."But, really, is Disguise necessary?
He looks, dresses, acts, and believes he's a Dwarf. Born of Dwarves and raised by Dwarves.
Other than his creature type, in-character, he's a Dwarf.
Unfortunately, yes, at least in pfs play. If you are an oread, then anyone looking at you can make a knowledge planes check to know that is what you are. Unless you are wearing a disguise, you are clearly not a dwarf. To call yourself one thing while being another violates the reskinning rule of pfs. If it helps, think of it this way. Oreads can easily be half dwarf, some dwarves may have earth elemental blood in their family tree. But to have enough elemental blood that you have the oread race traits means you look different. If you looked like a dwarf, then your elemental blood must be thin enough that you would instead just have the dwarf traits.
Again, I like describing my characters by role too, but if someone asks my class ooc, I tell them. If nobody has a problem with you not giving your class then fine, it ends there. But reiterating Derek's question which went unanswered. What's the benefit to you for keeping it a secret? Why is it so important not to let other players know. For the times when dodging the question causes table strife, why not just say it and move on?
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Because when I tell players that my drunk is actually a monk, there is an expectation around the table that my character does at least some damage, no matter how much I emphasize that he is action denial & buffing. It's the same problem as telling certain players that you're a battle cleric. All they hear is "healer." It happens often enough that I would rather tell you my role than my class for these "nontraditional" builds.
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True fact: opponents in scenarios can certainly be taken in by your character's appearance and actions to actual in-game effect, even if they're not necessarily hidden from the party.
When an NPC ranger who hates divine spellcasters saw my positive energy channeling wizard wearing voluminous clerical robes covered in holy symbols of Sarenrae she certainly didn't hesitate to pincushion him with arrows. On the other end of the spectrum, my 7 STR full-WIS "caster" druid carried a longspear for a number of levels. Since he was armored and carrying a reach weapon many enemies avoided him to skirt provoking, despite his near total inability to hit or damage anything.
Heck, there's even fake armor in the equipment guide specifically designed to make your wizard look like a fighter-- from a distance...
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Because when I tell players that my drunk is actually a monk, there is an expectation around the table that my character does at least some damage, no matter how much I emphasize that he is action denial & buffing. It's the same problem as telling certain players that you're a battle cleric. All they hear is "healer." It happens often enough that I would rather tell you my role than my class for these "nontraditional" builds.
...and you think that making sure that there is no possibility of the wrong expectation is worth causing problems at a table?
I answer other players when asked a direct question about my character because I don't want to insult the integrity of everyone I play with by assuming they aren't intelligent enough to understand. I don't want to be treated like an ignorant child and so don't treat others that way. If someone's actually interested in my build, cool! I'm happy to tell them all about it after the game or during a break. Again, most people I play with don't have any problem with not knowing what my class is, but it's rude to refuse to answer a direct question that is so harmless as what class(es) your character is.
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True fact: opponents in scenarios can certainly be taken in by your character's appearance and actions to actual in-game effect, even if they're not necessarily hidden from the party.
When an NPC ranger who hates divine spellcasters saw my positive energy channeling wizard wearing voluminous clerical robes covered in holy symbols of Sarenrae she certainly didn't hesitate to pincushion him with arrows. On the other end of the spectrum, my 7 STR full-WIS "caster" druid carried a longspear for a number of levels. Since he was armored and carrying a reach weapon many enemies avoided him to skirt provoking, despite his near total inability to hit or damage anything.
Heck, there's even fake armor in the equipment guide specifically designed to make your wizard look like a fighter-- from a distance...
I love doing stuff like this. I have a dragon disciple, ooh look at me all unarmored spellcaster, so vulnerable. Oh no, you charged me, I CLAW YOUR FACE OFF WITH MY CLAWS.
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My Oread has the Dwarf-blooded feat, so he's not descended from humans like most Oreads are.
Physically, he's as short, and stocky, as a Dwarf.
He's wielding Dwarven weapons.
And, perhaps most importantly in this case, he's wearing Dwarven Stoneplate (topped off with a Dwarven Boulder Helmet).
About the only part of his body that's exposed is his beard.
How in the world would anyone be able to tell he's not a Dwarf?
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My Oread has the Dwarf-blooded feat, so he's not descended from humans like most Oreads are.
Physically, he's as short, and stocky, as a Dwarf.
He's wielding Dwarven weapons.
And, perhaps most importantly in this case, he's wearing Dwarven Stoneplate (topped off with a Dwarven Boulder Helmet).
About the only part of his body that's exposed is his beard.
How in the world would anyone be able to tell he's not a Dwarf?
Well rules wise you still need a disguise check, though I'd certainly give you plenty of bonuses on it, there should still be a perception check to notice.
...but that's not really the point. The point is it's fine for you to fool everyone's characters to think you are whatever. Not so much to lie to the people you are playing with.
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rules wise you still need a disguise check
And that's where verisimilitude breaks for me.
He's not actively disguising himself.
Why would he even think to? He's a Dwarf.
...but that's not really the point. The point is it's fine for you to fool everyone's characters to think you are whatever. Not so much to lie to the people you are playing with.
No lies have ever been told, either in- or out-of-character. Some miscommunication must be afoot.
I don't play in society, but I suppose I can understand that if a group of people is gathering together only infrequently and with little time to spare, they might feel inclined to skip introductions and flavor and get straight to the meat of the matter. Not saying I agree with that style, but I can understand it.
In our games, I tend to lead each player up to his/her character introduction, and then allow them to describe the character for themselves so that these details are at least offered to all. I don't expect everybody to memorize. But I also am one of those old school GMs who remembers everything about your character and can remind you of things even you have forgotten (such as "your, uh... paralyzing fear of water").
But this is also where my love of small painted things comes in. I tend to work with each player beforehand to get a good idea of what their character looks like, carries, and wears. Then I customize minis to suit. A well-painted and equipped mini on the table can be good shorthand for a character's description (though on the flip side, should also not be the final say in what is going on with/happened to that character).
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On this point-- so far, I guess I've been lucky in PFS... most of the tables I'm at, characters have personalities, quirks, habits, abilities, not-necessarily-standard-elements-of-build, etc., and are not simply race-and-class and that's it. I'd probably quit playing PFS if I continuously ran into tables full of people playing their characters as 1-dimensional, strings-of-numbers-and-abilities, lacking-personality, tactical-wargame-style combat units (and nothing more). Most of the folks I play with these days in PFS, and all of the folks I play with in home games are quite capable of (and usually do) separate character knowledge from player knowledge.
On the other hand, on the idea of concealing things from your fellow players-- in a home game, depends on the campaign and situation. Sometimes it's entirely appropriate (but not always) and sometimes it can be lots of fun (but not always-- when your deceit specifically works to the detriment of your fellow players' enjoyment of the game, then NO, it is not okay even in a home game).
In PFS-- I find it offensive and annoying to conceal things from your fellow players (and again, talking about players here, not characters-- IMO it's okay if there are things about your character that are not and may never be character-knowledge for the rest of the party). When it's pick-up games, frequently with different casts of players from night to night and time-limited scenarios, we (your fellow players) DO have a need to know what you're bringing to the table and what you can do for the party. I don't have time in a four-hour session to have to deal with someone who cannot be relied on, trusted, or really included in the game by the rest of us because we have no idea what he or she can and/or will do in the game.
I have rethought my opinion slightly from the past-- I personally don't have much of a problem if you emphasize role and capabilities rather than character-class when explaining your character to the rest of the group-- but you'd better be accurate about what role you're able (and are going) to fill in the upcoming session, and what you can do. But, if your insistence on keeping secrets keeps working to the detriment of the rest of the table, don't be surprised if you start becoming a 'persona non grata' and not welcome at a lot of tables.
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rules wise you still need a disguise checkAnd that's where verisimilitude breaks for me.
He's not actively disguising himself.
Why would he even think to? He's a Dwarf.
...but that's not really the point. The point is it's fine for you to fool everyone's characters to think you are whatever. Not so much to lie to the people you are playing with.No lies have ever been told, either in- or out-of-character. Some miscommunication must be afoot.
In character-- yeah, he's a dwarf. No lies told by the character, as the character understands the situation (although sooner or later, he will probably start realizing he's something a little bit different from most dwarves-- he's been touched by other-planar energies-- in character, a defense can still easily be made for the character insisting truthfully that he is still a dwarf, albeit not a "pure-blooded" dwarf...).
Out of character-- if you're telling your fellow players (as out-of-game knowledge) that he's a dwarf when your character's mechanical-game-effect race is Oread, you are lying to them. This is not at all ambiguous, there really isn't any double-speak defense for your position that would change that fact.
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No lies told by the character, as the character understands the situation (although sooner or later, he will probably start realizing he's something a little bit different from most dwarves-- he's been touched by other-planar energies-- in character, a defense can still easily be made for the character insisting truthfully that he is still a dwarf, albeit not a "pure-blooded" dwarf...).
He passes it off as being "blessed by Torag".
Out of character-- if you're telling your fellow players (as out-of-game knowledge) that he's a dwarf when your character's mechanical-game-effect race is Oread, you are lying to them. This is not at all ambiguous, there really isn't any double-speak defense for your position that would change that fact.
In the one game I've played him, as I stated up thread, "I described him as a Dwarf". That is not me lying. By any stretch of the word.
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rules wise you still need a disguise checkAnd that's where verisimilitude breaks for me.
He's not actively disguising himself.
Why would he even think to? He's a Dwarf.
...but that's not really the point. The point is it's fine for you to fool everyone's characters to think you are whatever. Not so much to lie to the people you are playing with.No lies have ever been told, either in- or out-of-character. Some miscommunication must be afoot.
If you say he looks exactly like a dwarf, then you don't understand the race you chose. Oreads do not look exactly like dwarves, any character who can make a dc10 knowledge the plains check can tell that you are in fact an oread and not a dwarf. So, if you don't disguise yourself, most people who you meet will be able to tell that you are plane touched.
If we go to page 144 of the advanced race guide it tells us that oreads are "a minor offshoot of the human race," it doesn't even allow for them to be anything but planetouched humans, which is lame, but that's pathfinder's version of plane touched characters.|
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Totally agreeing with with James here, I hate it when people put stereotypes on what classes you are playing and assumes you are the role.player A: Yo! what is your class?
Player B: um.. well, Arron is a cleric of...////// get cut off by the rude player A.
Player A: ah! yes, a healer! here's my wand. me big human fighter, you heal me.
Player B: but.. but.. but I worship Gorum and have higher chance to hit, and do more damage than you.
Player B: (stopped listening already)------------------------------------------
Or in another real world situation:
My PC: (in my character's voice): XXX what do you do? as we just left the mission breifing.
Player A: I am a human occultist.
My PC: wow? what is an occulist, that sounds cool! (this character have not played with a occult playtest classes yet before)
Player A: (get irritated) yells back: i already told you my class, what do you want more?
Me: um well, there's like 200 ways to build an occultist. which one are you.Player A:(very impatiently) I have a stick, and i hit stuff.
ME: Finally, thank you. for telling me what your character does rather than just tell me his class.
Player A: grumble....grumble...
I have pissed of a player, or two, by asking their PC's hair/eye color.
I share this pain.
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If we go to page 144 of the advanced race guide it tells us that oreads are "a minor offshoot of the human race," it doesn't even allow for them to be anything but planetouched humans, which is lame, but that's pathfinder's version of plane touched characters.
Unless, of course, you were Dwarf-blooded.
Which he is.
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If you say he looks exactly like a dwarf
This must be where ppl are getting hung up.
I never said this, and I feel people are reading other's responses and assuming they are quoting me directly.
The English language is rather finicky.
"Describing him as a dwarf", and saying "he looks exactly like a dwarf", are two different things.
During character introductions, those that are paying attention, and who are curious enough to ask, will realize the difference.
If you're not, and you adventure with him for a few sessions believing he's "just a dwarf", but then at some point figure out the truth, it's an "Aha!" moment. It's that type of realization that becomes memorable. A moment when the world you know changes.
In roleplaying games I've found that those moments are becoming fewer and fewer in between. Everyone now falls into "Class X" or "Race Y", with no deviation.
Isn't that what this thread was written to address?
I believe the point has been driven home, after this.
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Meant to edit my last post, but I'll instead just post it by itself.
He's actually an Oread with:
1) the Dwarf-Blooded feat (which gives you the Slow and Steady + Stonecunning Racial Traits),
2) the Adopted (by Dwarves) Social Trait to pick up a Dwarf Race Trait,
3) the Glory of Old Regional Trait to give him bonuses vs. Spells, SLAs, and Poison,
4) openly worships Torag and wears an Iron Holy Symbol,
5) wearing Dwarven Stoneplate, and
6) wielding a Dwarven Waraxe and Dwarven Boulder Helmet thanks to a Convention Boon.
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@TriOmegaZero
I really cannot imagine scenario where player caused dire calamity, disfunction and major trouble or death for entire party or player due to his roleplay of a character. Should this terrible situation appear, I am sure GM who knows out of game what character really is, can solve the issue quietly and nicely.
Should the player ask another player out of game what his character really is, player can lie. Rules of the game do not cover people's social behaviour.
That on side, don't get me wrong. I already learned myself that it's easier to simply say what your character really is. It causes less confusion. One player got insulted once over me when I didn't wish to tell him the spell's name, but he was a special case.
Adam