So my group is very indecisive on campaigns (as some of you may have seen from my abundance of posts here on character concepts). We may be playing a game using a 10 point buy...now, I have no experience with 10 point buys, so I'm at a loss. I can use any Pathfinder source book, but I am restricted to Core Races plus Orc, Goblin, Dhampir, Fetchling, Oread, Ifrit, Samsaran Sylph, and Undine. Any ideas what would be good on a 10 point buy?
Barbarian and anything with heavy armour (ditch dex) spring to mind. Spell DCs aren't likely to be very good wit a 10-point build (not if you want things like hit points and saving throws), so avoid arcane casters. War Priest or Inquisitor with a level dip for heavy armour and feats would be potent, too.
Alternatively, consider classes that skip prerequisites. Ranger and Slayer are excellent in that regard.
Barbarian (+4's from rage- go 'mediocre' and get up to 'decent'; it can even dump wis a bit since rage gives will boost and the standard build takes superstition). Druid (animal companion with actual stats- later wildshape for stat boosts). Summoner (again- pet class). And...I am kind of stuck after that.
Overall, orc and goblin are looking PRETTY good as far as choices go. Their racial +4 (despite the penalties) seems good.
I was thinking about going with a Slayer, so I could also eschew a decent Intelligence score while still getting a bunch of skill points, but an Untouchable Bloodrager also comes to mind. Doing a point buy with a human (for a level 4 start), I ended with a stat spread of 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8, which isn't horrible in the grand scheme of things (I once played a Paladin with Str 15, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 13...so not terrible comparatively lol)
Another thing I was thinking of was an Arcanist with low Charisma...it removes the possibility of certain exploits, but I'd still be essentially a wizard with a sorcerer's toolbox
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Any pet class is good in low stat games: like druids, summoners, clerics, hunters, sylvan sorcerer. If your good you may be able to pull off a necromancer but you have to survive till you get animate dead. If you have a body guard then you can focus on casting and they can do the grunt work.
10 point buy is 14 14 12 10 10 8. Not completely terrible stats really. You can even do a human monk. 14s in Wis and Str, 12 in Dex, 10 Con/Int, 8 Cha. The racial +2 where ever you want. Wis or Str to bump a strength, or Dex or Con to shore up a weakness. You just have to lower your expectations. Really a Monk is probably a better choice at 10 point buy. With 3 good saves you don't have to worry about your lowish score hurting you there.
Since everyone is starting out low, your power level will be just fine compared to the rest of the group. 10 point buy just means you will be playing on Hard Mode. It guarantees that you have one significant weakness or aren't very good at anything, by design. so it's ok if you're not that strong to start.
I'll second the suggestion to look into pet classes. Since Hunters are already nearly all about the pet, a hunter with a horrible point buy is just slightly moreso, and their animal focuses will be a larger buff relative to your low stats. If you really want to make your pet into a combat monster, start off with three levels of Hunter and then switch to Mad Dog or Mounted Fury Barbarian and get set up to let your pet rage when you do & take Amplified Rage.
This would work almost as well with a 10 point buy as it does with the 25 point buy our group uses, because the base stats aren't really as important as the benefits of double-powered rage.
Why did your GM decide on 10 point?
GM decided on a 10-Point buy to "try something new"...even though we've already done a 10-Point buy before and we proved to be too weak as PCs to really do anything. But then again, that was with a different GM, so it'll be different to see how he takes this.
As for pet classes, GMs in our group have this weird fetish for attacking the companions first...I was a ranger once and my tiger was targeted visibly until it died in our second encounter...and that GM made it obscenely difficult to get a new companion as well. With that in mind, I'd like to steer clear of companions, because if it died...well...it wouldn't be good.
At this point I'm kinda leaning toward an arcanist, but I'm not sure how to start building it.
Summoner still looks good since you have much more expendable summons that you can send out after the eidolon gets nixed. And heck, it is guaranteed to come back the next day.
Primal companion hunter with a wolf might also be good. Wolves are common enough that you have to say 'COME ON' if you can't find a new one (I am guessing that was the problem with the tiger), and with primal, you can use evos to grab claws and pounce for minutes/level (read: battles/level, since most last less than 1 minute). And if the GM kills it off, you can then apply the evos to yourself for a decent boost.
Arcanist with occultist archetype is always a good choice.
You should play a summoner, they're the least affected by low point buys and are a strong tier 1-2 class due to their versatility and strength.
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10 point buy along with zeroing out party helpers, AND making it super hard to replace them? Honestly, this DM sounds like thay have odd ideas on making it fun to be a PC.
I'm gonna parrot the others in suggesting a Summoner. Eidolons come back when killed, they get more gear, and when in doubt you can just build it as a skill monkey and rely on your Summon Monster spells. As a bonus, the low point buy means summons are even stronger than normal by comparison to typical 15 or 20 point buy parties.
A humanoid Eidolon with a heavy wooden shield (and claws on it's feet) has decent AC if you drop a Mage Armor on it, and really great AC if you get the natural armor evolution. Slap on some bonus Con or Strength and you've got a front liner that will outperform anything else with TWF.
Actually, this is the only major concern. Double check with your fellow players to make sure the Eidolon won't step on their toes; at 10 point buy, melee classes are weaker than most kinds of Eidolons and Animal Companions, and an optimized skill Eidolon can make an entire "rogue" quadrant of PC classes redundant.
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I'm going to say what everyone else here is thinking: Why bother?
Your DM is gimping you from the start, which in turn is forcing you to focus more on a "build" than a character, just so you can mechanically play the game.
Yeah sure you can mitigate it by focusing on SAD classes and builds that work around this limitation, but once again I ask, why bother?
I can understand low magic games where treasure is rare and players are forced to rely mostly on PC ability rather than what Item they can pull out of their bag of holding.
I can understand games where certain classes are restricted or banned for the sake of campaign flavor.
But a 10 point buy. That just sucks, plain and simple.
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Actually, if I knew the GM likes to target animal companions, I'd consider using one to make a tank.
Human Hunter 1
str 16 (+2 racial) dex 12, con 12, int 10, wis 13 cha 8
feats: eye for talent (+2 dex), spirit's gift
animal companion: boar
feats: Improved natural armor
Get the boar some leather barding (you may have to take craft: armor to convince the GM that you made it for him). It's base AC is 22 (+2 armor, +7 natural, +2 dex, +1 size). It has 13 HP and DR 5/adamantine from spirit's gift (earth). While it doesn't do a lot of damage (so it doesn't step on the PCs), it is nearly indestructible, especially at 1st level, and any attack aimed at it is one that isn't aimed at the PCs.
10 point buy is fine.
We used to play 10 point by default a lot.
I like it, of course I prefer batman over superman too.
For a ten point character a few options stick out.
#1 Dual talent Human gets +2 to any two stats.
This matters a lot more in a low point buy.
Go with an Armored Hulk Barbarian.
S 14(16) D 12 C 14(16) I 10 W 10 Ch 8
very respective.
Alternatively a Daring Champion Cavalier
S 10 D 15(17) C 12 I8 w10 ch 13
First level you get weapon finesse (class), Weapon focus: longswrod (level1) , and slashing grace: longsword (hummie)
If you want to have fun, and be different, go with whip instead, and fight with a shortsword the first few levels.
its a toss up which ones more fun, daring champion (because you get all the Cavlier goodies as well) or Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler.
But stats and feats are going to be very similar.
You can also EASILY go with a Ranger or Slayer as previous mentioned.
Going magus with the new swashbucklery arcana, and slashing grace is also feasible.
Elf Magus
S 10 D 15(17) C 10(8) I 15(17) w 8 ch 8
Kensai might be attractive.
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10 point buy is not that bad.
It's just not as strong as you are used to. In stead of playing super heros, you are playing mortals. it can be fun if you are willing to play allong.
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I'm going to say what everyone else here is thinking: Why bother?
Your DM is gimping you from the start, which in turn is forcing you to focus more on a "build" than a character, just so you can mechanically play the game.
Yeah sure you can mitigate it by focusing on SAD classes and builds that work around this limitation, but once again I ask, why bother?
I can understand low magic games where treasure is rare and players are forced to rely mostly on PC ability rather than what Item they can pull out of their bag of holding.
I can understand games where certain classes are restricted or banned for the sake of campaign flavor.
But a 10 point buy. That just sucks, plain and simple.
10 pt buy exists as part of the core rules, specifically listed as low fantasy… which puts it squarely in game of thrones/conan territory.
How many "Build" threads are on here focusing on needing at least 20 (and in some cases 25 pt) buys…. are they focusing on characters instead of the builds?
If you removed "build" theory crafting this place would be full of thespians…. and crickets.
Meh, I agree with Kane, it sucks. 15 is hard enough to play any MAD class, 10 is just cruel.
You want advice? Check Meetup.com, it's where I find new groups.
Also, your GM is not only pulling a dick move by throwing this 10-point stuff at you; he has a history of it by making finding a new animal companion a PitA.
"If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the new companion typically lives. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished."
You pray 24 hours, animal shows up, bam, you're done. Yeah, you need to find an animal reasonably local to your area, so you choose from the local fauna. The point is, it's not hard.
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Meh, I agree with Kane, it sucks. 15 is hard enough to play any MAD class, 10 is just cruel.
You want advice? Check Meetup.com, it's where I find new groups.
15 point is the standard AP point buy,.
20 is the PFS point buy.IF you are experienced, and play with optimizing min-maxers to begin with, this will make very little impact , with the exception of a few classes and choices.
Maybe the DM doesn't want to see 20 int, dex or str at 1st level. It gets a little ho hum when its all that every shows up at the table.
Are really good players going to be totally canceled out by missing a +1 here or there to one thing or another??
GM decided on a 10-Point buy to "try something new"...even though we've already done a 10-Point buy before and we proved to be too weak as PCs to really do anything. But then again, that was with a different GM, so it'll be different to see how he takes this.
As for pet classes, GMs in our group have this weird fetish for attacking the companions first...I was a ranger once and my tiger was targeted visibly until it died in our second encounter...and that GM made it obscenely difficult to get a new companion as well. With that in mind, I'd like to steer clear of companions, because if it died...well...it wouldn't be good.
At this point I'm kinda leaning toward an arcanist, but I'm not sure how to start building it.Kind of a jerk move by the DM but okay.
Arcanist with the Occultist archetype gives decent disposable pets and magic. At level 4 you've got 7 7 10 21 7 14 for stats, summon 2 (with minutes per level duration) as a standard action a bunch of times per day, and enough invisibility spells per day to avoid getting hit despite being squishy as heck.
You travel with almost nothing in the way of gear, you have a well-trained riding dog whose three tricks are "carry my food", "run away on command" and "come back on command" and you maybe wear a haramaki and a mithral buckler since they don't cause spell failure and are really lightweight.
You focus on buffs, your summons, and hiding.
seriously, with 10 build points you HAD to have a character with a 20 stat?
to the point of making a character that wouldn't physically adventure for fear of germs and catching a cold?|
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You play a 10 point buy game to play something different from a 15 or 20 point buy game. It will be fun for perhaps different reasons, but it'll still be fun if you go into it with the intention to have fun.
I like wild child brawler. You get 4 skill ranks a level and don't need an intelligence score to qualify for feats, which means you basically just need strength and constitution, along with ranks in Handle Animal for your animal companion who doesn't get affected whatsoever by the point buy.
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Why would you judge people for their choices?
Jerk/Dick move on the DM's Part IS Judging.
WAY too much rage over a single campaign choice such as a ten point buy.
The ONLY people who get mad about something like that are people who see the game as "unplayable" without max primary stats.
IT's silly to be upset about it, and it's sillier to go out of one's way to create character with a maxed stat
You play a 10 point buy game to play something different from a 15 or 20 point buy game. It will be fun for perhaps different reasons, but it'll still be fun if you go into it with the intention to have fun.
I like wild child brawler. You get 4 skill ranks a level and don't need an intelligence score to qualify for feats, which means you basically just need strength and constitution, along with ranks in Handle Animal for your animal companion who doesn't get affected whatsoever by the point buy.
I struggle to identify with that archetype at all. It's inexplicable, but… meh.
How would a wild child have much of any AC without a decent dex BTW?
Dwarf Ranger makes a good ten pointer too.
They get con and wis.
S 15 D10 C 13(15) I 10 W 10(12) Ch 10(8)
Take the sword and board combat style and can get shield master by level 6?
Sweet, TWF dwarf axe and light shield…good fun, decent AC.
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You play a 10 point buy game to play something different from a 15 or 20 point buy game. It will be fun for perhaps different reasons, but it'll still be fun if you go into it with the intention to have fun.
I like wild child brawler. You get 4 skill ranks a level and don't need an intelligence score to qualify for feats, which means you basically just need strength and constitution, along with ranks in Handle Animal for your animal companion who doesn't get affected whatsoever by the point buy.
I struggle to identify with that archetype at all. It's inexplicable, but… meh.
How would a wild child have much of any AC without a decent dex BTW?
AC would probably not be high, but that's not usually a big deal. Between the brawler and his animal companion you should be taking stuff out and hopefully getting your companion to take the brunt of the hits.
AC would probably not be high, but that's not usually a big deal. Between the brawler and his animal companion you should be taking stuff out and hopefully getting your companion to take the brunt of the hits.You play a 10 point buy game to play something different from a 15 or 20 point buy game. It will be fun for perhaps different reasons, but it'll still be fun if you go into it with the intention to have fun.
I like wild child brawler. You get 4 skill ranks a level and don't need an intelligence score to qualify for feats, which means you basically just need strength and constitution, along with ranks in Handle Animal for your animal companion who doesn't get affected whatsoever by the point buy.
I struggle to identify with that archetype at all. It's inexplicable, but… meh.
How would a wild child have much of any AC without a decent dex BTW?
focusing on high offense eh?
Better have a cleric chum
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focusing on high offense eh?
Better have a cleric chum
This setting rewards offence as the best defence. Brawlers are also great at making it work with access to feats on demand along with Pummelling Charge. The animal companion means that half the hits are going towards fluffy, and there is no better defence than not being hit at all.
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I would reiterate (not to make it a broken record), pet classes will shine, just be careful not to step on everyone else's toes. Druid (focus on summon/spells), Summoner, Hunter, etc.
Edit: The Summoner, as mentioned, would be the easiest way to avoid any GM shenanigans about not letting you have your pet back. It never "dies" and when it does get sent away you become scary in a different way.
Going for something like Slashing Grace with a class that doesn't have to worry about a whole lot of gear would make you decent.
At first I was a little horrified by the sound of this, but the more I consider such a game the more it sounds like it would be particularly appealing. Very gritty.
Going with the Occultist Arcanist (also would be strong) you could do 7, 14, 13, 16, 10, 7. With a human or elf you would still be pretty effective (maybe consider pumping your FCB into HP). Of course your going to be avoiding the exploits that use Cha like the plague (but most don't fit very well with what you would be trying to do anyways).
Those are my thoughts. Good luck with whatever you do!
This setting rewards offence as the best defence. Brawlers are also great at making it work with access to feats on demand along with Pummelling Charge. The animal companion means that half the hits are going towards fluffy, and there is no better defence than not being hit at all.focusing on high offense eh?
Better have a cleric chum
Yea… I hear ya… sounds like a pucker factor play to me, the lower your AC the more offense you give THEM tho too.
I usually try to have AC at low level when it actually matters, just my preference I guess.
WOAH this blew up!
Can't get to everything, but I'll try to hit some points.
My DM and another one of our players prefer other gaming systems to that of PF and 3.5...they much prefer more sandboxy games like Fate which I detest. Because of that, the DM feels that a low point buy is preferable...I get the feeling he does the low point buy because he wants the players who enjoy PF to give up and let him move to a different system, but alas...I enjoy PF too much to change.
I think I've about settled on an Arcanist with the Occultist archetype, simply because it sounds so cool with the summons and everything
Just make sure you have some decent CON going in if he focuses on the pets. I get the feeling he'll start aiming to kill you sooner or later.
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Occultist arcanist would be very easy to do with a 10 point buy. You can get away with a 16 Int no problem, and since your biggest tool is summoning, you have no worries about your saving throw DCs.
I would suggest a spread like:
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 8
Going with Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning at level 1 means that all of your summoned spells (which last 10 rounds at first level) probably have a strength score as high as the fighter. Look at the dog, which with Augment Summoning has a 17 strength and bites at +4 for (1d4+4). Eagles with three attacks at +3 for (1d4+2). You can shred first level, and to be honest, a 5 point buy could do the same.
Mentioned in the OP, BBT. :)
I can use any Pathfinder source book, but I am restricted to Core Races plus Orc, Goblin, Dhampir, Fetchling, Oread, Ifrit, Samsaran Sylph, and Undine.
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Anything with a pet is always a great choice in a 10 point-buy game. As is anything that only needs one or two stats and can ignore the rest (so, full casters like wizard).
But I'll note that a Weapon Finesse using Investigator (Empiricist) is also very viable, especially if you take the first level in Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade).
Go Str 7 Dex 16 (+2 from Human) Con 13 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 7 and pick up the Student of Philosophy Trait and the Fencing Grace Feat ASAP. You'll be effective in combat and, especially by 10 point-buy standards, a skill god (since almost all your skills are Int-based). Sounds fun to me. :)
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I second Inquisitor, in this case specifically a Kasatha Inquisitor who uses Weapon Finesse and Slashing Grace worshiping a god who has either a katana or bastard sword as their weapon with the mount inquisition.
Slashing Grace doesn't let you actually finesse those weapons, so you need a level of Swashbuckler to make this work.
Ghost sorcerer. Charisma does everything!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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While it's perfectly viable and fun to play a game with 10 point buy, I'm concerned that the issues here(from just your brief descriptions) go a bit deeper than character builds. It sounds like you and your GM want different things out of your games, and that is an issue than no amount of good build can fix. A GM who dislikes the system they are running can make the entire play experience miserable and call it an object lesson in how "bad" the system they dislike is.
Your GM likes FATE and you don't? Try to identify the characteristics of FATE that your GM likes and emphasize those in your Pathfinder play. FATE has a much more narrative and simple mechanic, as well as less stat-intensive encounters so it's likely that one of those aspects appeals to your GM. See if you could work up some house rules to add things your GM likes from FATE into your games.
I just think that if you don't meet him partway on this he'll keep making things unnecessarily difficult for you.
I am not trying to be flippant, but whatever the best classes were with 20 PB, they still are in 10 PB. You just do less things well. Wizards have plenty of utility spells that are game pwning, clerics do as well.
Pet classes totally get a bump up though. Get that spinasaurus!
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. . .
My DM and another one of our players prefer other gaming systems to that of PF and 3.5...they much prefer more sandboxy games like Fate which I detest. Because of that, the DM feels that a low point buy is preferable...I get the feeling he does the low point buy because he wants the players who enjoy PF to give up and let him move to a different system, but alas...I enjoy PF too much to change. . . .
. . . I'm concerned that the issues here(from just your brief descriptions) go a bit deeper than character builds. It sounds like you and your GM want different things out of your games, and that is an issue than no amount of good build can fix. A GM who dislikes the system they are running can make the entire play experience miserable and call it an object lesson in how "bad" the system they dislike is.
. . .
I just think that if you don't meet him partway on this he'll keep making things unnecessarily difficult for you.
THIS.
I like the narrative approach, but when we tried to play the FATE version of the Harry Dresden game, things did not go well, which has kind of turned me off to the FATE stuff. If I just wanted to play magical tea party, that's what I'd do. The fact that members of your group are being passive aggressive in this just tells me that there is another problem.
That said, if you expect the dm to kill your animal companion because... reasons... I'd almost say dip venomous... I mean verminous hunter. Let him kill your pet, and then you can swap out fast healing 1, +2 strength, or +4 perception as necessary. Then when he tries to give you back your animal companion I'd say "NOOO! I STILL MOURN FOR FLUFFY THE WONDER WORM!"
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Any class with a pet.
Sylvan sorcerers (dip heavens oracle for cheese), animal domain clerics/inquisitors, lunar oracles, druids. Mad dog barbarian, beast rider cavalier, sable company marine ranger riding a flying hippogriff.
Witches, shamans (dump everything into your casting stat amd abuse that slumber hex).