10 Point Buy...wooo


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Dark Archive

boring7 wrote:
Mergy wrote:

Occultist arcanist would be very easy to do with a 10 point buy. You can get away with a 16 Int no problem, and since your biggest tool is summoning, you have no worries about your saving throw DCs.

I would suggest a spread like:

Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 8

Going with Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning at level 1 means that all of your summoned spells (which last 10 rounds at first level) probably have a strength score as high as the fighter. Look at the dog, which with Augment Summoning has a 17 strength and bites at +4 for (1d4+4). Eagles with three attacks at +3 for (1d4+2). You can shred first level, and to be honest, a 5 point buy could do the same.

Arcanist specials often use charisma, soaking it may not completely cripple the character but it takes away or greatly hinders a lot of useful options for later levels.

To free up points for charisma, you could probably drop strength and wisdom more, you likely won't be making will saves in the first place and you don't carry lots of stuff. Actually, at a 14 dex you can be in medium load and not lose much anyway, the party martial will be a slow-move tincan. After human's +2 int you could have 7 14 12 17 8 12, and do everything Mergy said with conjuration.

Of course, if you are right about the DM, it doesn't matter. Things will drag on and down and ugly with the GM continuing to "punish" you for your BadWrongFun until someone gives up. You could "win" by making him give up first and quit running the campaign, but the game still ENDS at that point.

I know that some arcanist exploits use charisma, but I count a large number that are not affected by charisma at all. You can build a great arcanist while completely ignoring the stat, so long as you avoid things like the blast exploits. The metamagic, familiar, teleportation, and item creation exploits are all fine with no charisma to speak of.


I thought the teleport and some of the "be more awesome for a duration" abilities were level and charisma-based. Might not need a really high bonus for those but you don't want a negative if you can avoid it.

School Understanding springs to mind.


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I would suggest Commoner for this campaign. That seems to be what the GM wants.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would definately go summoner, even if he always targets the 'pet' first, there's little to no harm there. If the eidolon goes down, you can get him back the following day without issue, and in the mean time, throw down summons, and use your spells. In a 10pt buy game with a relatively hostile gm, a summoner is a godsend.


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For a summoner, consider that with a low point buy, the party's skills will be lacking, especially at low level. So you may want to make your Eidolon skill focused, and use your summoned monsters for combat. It's hard for your DM to go after an Eidolon that's not there most of the time.


Some people suggest this is not a dick move. Then, we proceed to be given examples of viable builds.

Here's why it's a lousy GM move. If it weren't, nobody would be pointing out specific builds that don't suck with 10-point buy. They'd be saying, "That is sufficient for any class or archetype."

Maybe I skimmed too fast, but I haven't seem that statement come up.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

10 Point buy is sufficient for any class or archetype.

However, some classes and/or archetypes are just about as cool with 10 points as they are with 20. If you only use one ability score 10 points gives you all you would want. If you have abilities that are based on multiple attributes, a 10 point buy is considerably weaker than a 20 point buy version of the same character.

Neither is more 'fun' then the other, however it generally is more fun for the player characters to all be relatively balanced. As a result, everyone in the group should try to either take SAD characters or to take equally MAD characters.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

My one experience with low point buy was awful, because it applied only to the PCs. The NPCs were "rolled" randomly, and always had better stats than we did. We just got clobbered all the time, and then were told about all the loot that we had missed out on...

I am not concerned with low point buy if everything in the world matches it. If the whole adventure is balanced towards low point buy, the point buy does not matter. What really concerns me here is that the GM has stated he does not like Pathfinder.

GMs should not GM for game systems they don't like, because then they are endlessly "fixing" them. If you're playing under a GM who doesn't like the game, pretty soon no one will.

Either play a system that the GM likes, or step up and GM the kind of game you want to play.

Hmm


10 point buy is just too low, though as you wouldnt be anything, unless you took points out.

A human fighter could work fine, though, as they would most likely have
16 strength
16 dexterity (14+2 racial)
13 constitution
8 intelligence
8 wisdom
7 charisma
and have pretty good adventures.

The only problem is that he would have problems higher up, and he could not be a good spellcaster either.

Dark Archive

thegreenteagamer wrote:

Some people suggest this is not a dick move. Then, we proceed to be given examples of viable builds.

Here's why it's a lousy GM move. If it weren't, nobody would be pointing out specific builds that don't suck with 10-point buy. They'd be saying, "That is sufficient for any class or archetype."

Maybe I skimmed too fast, but I haven't seem that statement come up.

That's blowing it out of proportion. A ten point buy is definitely more than enough to make a powerful character, so long as you do so intelligently. I would look at such a game as an optimization challenge. Naturally it's okay if people don't want to play that way, but this is not the worst thing to ever happen by any stretch of the imagination.

For a little perspective, the CRB assumes a 15 point buy, and the Elite Array is what most NPCs get. That's a stat spread of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. To compare, the stat spread I gave that arcanist was 15, 14, 12, 10, 8, 8.

So the differences are two –1 penalties to two tertiary stats. Not a big deal.

Naturally a monk, paladin, or warpriest are going to have some difficulties with this low of a point buy, but they are still possible as well. People freak out about not having that 20 in a stat, and usually forget that the NPCs they're fighting probably have a caster stat of between 15 and 17.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Eh, I played all the way through an AP with a friend who rolled a 7 point buy paladin - 14 12 10 10 10 10. He was fine. You can play a viable character of any class with 10 point buy.

The bigger issue is the GM's attitude towards the game. Also, it's not cool to choose a point buy that will make you players feel like they're not viable, even if the truth is different. The point of playing is to have fun, after all.

You certainly can have a fun, viable game with 10 point buy. You shouldn't force your players to play that way if they don't want to, though.

Dark Archive

ryric wrote:

Eh, I played all the way through an AP with a friend who rolled a 7 point buy paladin - 14 12 10 10 10 10. He was fine. You can play a viable character of any class with 10 point buy.

The bigger issue is the GM's attitude towards the game. Also, it's not cool to choose a point buy that will make you players feel like they're not viable, even if the truth is different. The point of playing is to have fun, after all.

You certainly can have a fun, viable game with 10 point buy. You shouldn't force your players to play that way if they don't want to, though.

I would agree with that. I suppose I tend to enjoy lower point buy games simply because I feel like they are a challenge in character building. I would probably enjoy a 10 point buy more than a 25 point buy.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Rather than 10 point buy, why not just use the Elite Array of 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8?

This way, NPCs of equal level will be on par with your PCs.

Silver Crusade

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Here's a highly effective 1 point build character:

Effective 1 point Human Evangelist Cleric build, specialized in Summoning & with a pet:

This build does not care about attributes, except for having enough WIS to cast spells. It's a Cleric (Evangelist) specialized in summoning, with an Animal Companion. Lots of deities can work for this, although deity's alignment should be LG, CG, LE, or CE for effective use of Sacred Summons. Probably put additional attribute points into CON, so you don't die. All FCB to HP, always.

STR10 DEX10 CON10 INT10 WIS11+2 CHA10
Domain: Animal or Animal (Feather) : for the Animal Companion & for personal Flight.
Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration) (1st), Augment Summons (H), Improved Summons (3rd), Boon Companion (5th), Sacred Summons (7th)

None of this character's primary abilities depend on attributes. Effective combat actions:

Inspire Courage like a Bard (especially beneficial for low point build martials)
Summon multiple Monsters
Cast a divine buff/healing spell
Order pet to do something

Since your GM has a hate on for Animal Companions, perhaps build yours as a defensive bodyguard, with feats like Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, and In Harm's Way. This gives your your very own Meat Shield (TM). Such an unobtrusive pet is a lot less likely to tweak off your GM. Alternately, eliminate the pet and do something different with your Domain and 1 feat: it won't make that much difference.

Your augmented superior sacred summons will get the benefits of Inspire Courage, which is huge.

Put your 4th level and 8th level attribute bonuses to WIS and you'll not need to magically boost WIS until you reach 11th level and want to cast 6th level spells. At that point a +2 WIS headband will carry you to 9th level spells.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Thing is, in a point buy this low, the martial to caster power gap, is exacerbated.

Suddenly, you hit a point, where anyone who is not a caster, is so overshadowed, that they are pushed down to uselessness.

Silver Crusade

10 point combat-effective Fighter:

Basic combat-effective 10 point human fighter:

Human Fighter
STR14+2 DEX10 CON14 INT10 WIS10 CHA10
Feats: Toughness (H), Power Attack (1st)

Weapon: Bardiche, longsword, dagger, sling

At 1st level, Bardiche power attacks will be +3 to hit for 1d10 + 7 damage. Starts with 16 HP. That's enough to win most low level fights.

If your party also includes the above Evangelist Cleric, and the cleric buffs the fighter, combat numbers get quite respectable. E.g. At 5th level the buffs Inspire Courage plus minute-per-level spells Bless, Bull's Strength, Magic Weapon, and Weapon of Awe can give this 5th level fighter a Power Attack at +12 to hit for 1d10+21 HP damage. It gets even better if the party's 5th level wizard also casts Enlarge Person and Haste on the Fighter.

That doesn't sound useless. That said, I totally agree with BlackBloodTroll that a 10 point buy strongly favors casters over martials.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That is early levels.

Any time later, and boom, your Fighter is meaningless.

Silver Crusade

True enough. From the sounds of the original post, though, it's unlikely this game is destined to reach high levels. The OP didn't specifically say, but it sounds that way. A GM who asks for 10 point PCs is unlikely to start them much above level 1, and is unlikely to keep playing above about 10th level.

Even at high levels, this 10 point fighter is just down a little STR on a comparable 20 point Fighter: perhaps a +2 to hit and +3 damage difference. We know that high level martials get most of their damage through static bonuses, and STR is only 4 points lower. Thus, instead of being +22 to hit for 2d8+27 damage, this fighter might be +20 to hit for 2d8+24 damage. That's about a 10% difference.

Is the 10 point buy fighter really that less effective, at high levels, compared to a 20 point fighter? I'd argue that, compared to a high level caster, both are equally useless. Until the caster is grappled, at which point having either fighter nearby is equally desirable ...

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I just have a hard time dealing with being less powerful than the Elite Array Warrior, or Aristocrat.

I mean, even the Gamemastery Street Beggar is more powerful.

This means you are the heroes, but some random Hobo is better than you.

Silver Crusade

With only a 10 point build the PCs will not be individually powerful. If they want to be effective they will have to do it through teamwork and smart play. I played for several years in a low-point-value no-magic-shop game, and we did just fine. Tactics, team synergy, and smart planning become especially important, because the PCs can't win through on sheer power alone. Perhaps that's what the GM wishes to encourage?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Focus on Diplomacy.

Convince the Hobo to fight for you.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just have a hard time dealing with being less powerful than the Elite Array Warrior, or Aristocrat.

I mean, even the Gamemastery Street Beggar is more powerful.

This means you are the heroes, but some random Hobo is better than you.

(1) You are assuming the GM isn't adjusting everyone down

(2) Maybe the entire campaign centers around the concept of pure average joes rising above all to achieve great things
(3) *Sometimes* the only difference between a hobo and a hero is opportunity and drive


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just have a hard time dealing with being less powerful than the Elite Array Warrior, or Aristocrat.

I mean, even the Gamemastery Street Beggar is more powerful.

This means you are the heroes, but some random Hobo is better than you.

Do not look now, but no matter who you are, some random hobo somewhere is better at something than you are.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Not everybody wants to play "average joes".

In fact, most people, are "average joes", and these games are an escape from that.

If all NPCs are "powered down", then what's the point?


I have run entire campaigns with a 10 point buy, BBT. Yes, well above tenth level.

They players enjoyed their characters.

The characters had no performance issues at all. Even above tenth level.

They just had to use their heads and not rely on numerical and mechanical advantages.

"The Point" is to have fun. We did.

If it is not your cup of tea, then fine. Feel free to play and run games on the Easy setting. My players enjoy a challenge.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You don't need 10 point buy, for a challenging adventure.

If the DM doesn't know how to create that, then that's bad DMing.

Just because someone doesn't like a 10 point buy, doesn't mean they don't like a challenge, or hoping for an "easy win".

That's poppycock.

You don't get put yourself on a pedestal by playing a 10 point buy game.

It doesn't make you a better gamer, roleplayer, or team member.

Also, the OP, has shown his distaste as well.

Along with the DM's reasoning of making them not want to play Pathfinder.

I doubt he will "power down" any NPCs, or encounters.


10 point begs to be played with an NPC class for the full effect :D

You could acutally have quite a fun campagin focusing on character development with so little to worry about mechaincally. Long as the GM knows what he's doing its fine. GM can even go nuts with magic items to suppliment everyone since your so weak, which could be fun too.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It feels too Scooby Doo to me.

Bumbling teenagers, with no real skills, defeating enemies, through sheer luck, and their enemy's incompetence.

Maybe, I want to play Conan, and not Rincewind, without the favour of the Lady.

Is that bad?


Yes.

Weak = better. GoodRightFun!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I want to be part of the Seven Samurai, not one of the villagers they train.

Many others want to, as well.


I'm sure there are legitimate reasons for doing 10 point buy but it is a red flag.

It did make me think though. It may be fun to play a variant 10 point buy where you start at 10 point buy but then you get 1 stat point per level instead of the usual every fourth. It'd possibly encourage starting with more modest max stats but leading to even more superhuman stats at higher levels.


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I never said that they did not want to. I said that my players do not want to.

I said if it is not your cup of tea, then play the game on easy mode. You were the one harping on the "uselessness" of PC's with a ten point buy (and by extension, disparaging a playstyle that you obviously have next to no experience with). You read way more into my post than was actually there (as usual).

I have run games for PC's with 10 pt buy. You, obviously, have not. PC's with a 10 pt buy are neither "worthless" or "useless", as you said they were. They function just fine. I have hundreds of personal hours of active playtime experience running games for such characters. You, obviously, have little to none. Literally, I have run two entire campaigns with 5 PC's each. The first to 18th level and the second to 14th and those PC's handled themselves just fine. They were not "Scooby Dooish" (More disparaging of others playstyles, huh? That's called hypocrisy, by the way, when you accuse others of something and then do it yourself.)

I, straight up, told BBT to play the way he preferred. That is a far, far cry from accusing anyone of "badwrongfun". By all means play the way you prefer, but you might just consider whether you have any real experience on the topic at hand before you start calling things "worthless" and "useless" when what you actually mean is "not as powerful as I LIKE to play, but I have next to no experience at this power level so I really have no idea".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Dwarf Cleric. The best combination for just about anyone.


I agree with just about everything BBT said, and thoroughly, I say, thoroughly, enjoyed the visual of convincing a random hobo to fight for my character. I will probably one day design a summoner who's eidolon is bipedal and I will call him Jim the Hobo. My entire contingent of material components for summoning JtH will be bottles of hooch!


Gevaudan wrote:

I am not trying to be flippant, but whatever the best classes were with 20 PB, they still are in 10 PB. You just do less things well. Wizards have plenty of utility spells that are game pwning, clerics do as well.

Pet classes totally get a bump up though. Get that spinasaurus!

a DM that wants a 10 point build campaign is very very unlikely to let you have access to exotic animals as companions, especially dinos.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just have a hard time dealing with being less powerful than the Elite Array Warrior, or Aristocrat.

I mean, even the Gamemastery Street Beggar is more powerful.

This means you are the heroes, but some random Hobo is better than you.

who says those stat arrays or npcs even exist in the 10 pt world?

in a 10 pt campaign you're very unlikely to meet an enemy fighter and much more likely to meet a warrior.

PCs are already special by virtue of having PC classes,and regular commoners are 0 pt builds. Everything remains relative.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Not everybody wants to play "average joes".

In fact, most people, are "average joes", and these games are an escape from that.

If all NPCs are "powered down", then what's the point?

because a dragon is still a dragon


Pendagast wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just have a hard time dealing with being less powerful than the Elite Array Warrior, or Aristocrat.

I mean, even the Gamemastery Street Beggar is more powerful.

This means you are the heroes, but some random Hobo is better than you.

who says those stat arrays or npcs even exist in the 10 pt world?

in a 10 pt campaign you're very unlikely to meet an enemy fighter and much more likely to meet a warrior.

PCs are already special by virtue of having PC classes,and regular commoners are 0 pt builds. Everything remains relative.

Why go through all the trouble of adjusting everything down to meet an arbitrarily adjusted down point buy? It's much simpler to leave everything alone and leave a decent point buy.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Thing is, in a point buy this low, the martial to caster power gap, is exacerbated.

Suddenly, you hit a point, where anyone who is not a caster, is so overshadowed, that they are pushed down to uselessness.

everyone argues this anyway.

at high levels, fighters still hit just about anything that they want to, and a few more damage points aren't going to catch them up to casters…BUT casters with lower casting stats have easier to make DCs for saves, so characters with good saves are more likely to actually make those saves.

for those who want to make wizards with 21 int and 7 in every other stat, they need fighter support even more, lest the wind blow and knock them over and they can't get up.

the superiority of god-wizards has always been supremely overstated on these boards and I have never seen this disparity in 10 pt campaigns.

Sure, wizards make a big bang above 12th level, but Ive seen players on their 3rd PC by that point because the other robbed iterations died.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just have a hard time dealing with being less powerful than the Elite Array Warrior, or Aristocrat.

I mean, even the Gamemastery Street Beggar is more powerful.

This means you are the heroes, but some random Hobo is better than you.

who says those stat arrays or npcs even exist in the 10 pt world?

in a 10 pt campaign you're very unlikely to meet an enemy fighter and much more likely to meet a warrior.

PCs are already special by virtue of having PC classes,and regular commoners are 0 pt builds. Everything remains relative.

Why go through all the trouble of adjusting everything down to meet an arbitrarily adjusted down point buy? It's much simpler to leave everything alone and leave a decent point buy.

no one "made up" the ten point buy…. its been part of the game since before a large percentage of posters on this board have been playing it.

Warriors and adepts are normally the bread and butter NPCs… not oracles and barbarians lurking behind every bush and in every bar.


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Hmm wrote:

My one experience with low point buy was awful, because it applied only to the PCs. The NPCs were "rolled" randomly, and always had better stats than we did. We just got clobbered all the time, and then were told about all the loot that we had missed out on...

I am not concerned with low point buy if everything in the world matches it. If the whole adventure is balanced towards low point buy, the point buy does not matter. What really concerns me here is that the GM has stated he does not like Pathfinder.

GMs should not GM for game systems they don't like, because then they are endlessly "fixing" them. If you're playing under a GM who doesn't like the game, pretty soon no one will.

Either play a system that the GM likes, or step up and GM the kind of game you want to play.

Hmm

the MAIN purpose for low point buy is to make the monsters more monstrous.

Ex. an ogre has an 19 str…. big deal when even half orc barbarian thats ever been in your party has that or better at 1st level.

You find a belt of giant str…no matter to just sell that, it's worthless, the barbarian can rage 18 rounds and day and is 1 point stronger…

The fantastic are more so with a 10 point buy.

IF you DO meet an 18 str PC, chances are he's raided points from his other stats and meets the stereo type, the balanced heroes will be more Bruce Wayne and Less BANE.


Your fetish for utter averageness is weird in a game like pathfinder. Ogre's are a bit intimidating early on, but they don't need to be the most stunning thing in the game. It's possible to easily balance a game on any level, no need to stifle choices and limit players, which is what a 10 pt. buy does.

Dark Archive

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Limitations sometimes make for really fun characters. I absolutely do not understand the huge level of outrage at the idea of a 10 point buy. Naturally you're going to have a less powerful character than if you had higher stats, but people are acting like it's unplayable.

It is a different thing if the GM is legitimately trying to discourage his players from enjoying Pathfinder, but I can absolutely imagine a game where I enjoy playing an average joe with middling or worse stats who eventually becomes mighty through force of will, and yes, luck. This is a dice game after all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:
Hmm wrote:

My one experience with low point buy was awful, because it applied only to the PCs. The NPCs were "rolled" randomly, and always had better stats than we did. We just got clobbered all the time, and then were told about all the loot that we had missed out on...

I am not concerned with low point buy if everything in the world matches it. If the whole adventure is balanced towards low point buy, the point buy does not matter. What really concerns me here is that the GM has stated he does not like Pathfinder.

GMs should not GM for game systems they don't like, because then they are endlessly "fixing" them. If you're playing under a GM who doesn't like the game, pretty soon no one will.

Either play a system that the GM likes, or step up and GM the kind of game you want to play.

Hmm

the MAIN purpose for low point buy is to make the monsters more monstrous.

Ex. an ogre has an 19 str…. big deal when even half orc barbarian thats ever been in your party has that or better at 1st level.

You find a belt of giant str…no matter to just sell that, it's worthless, the barbarian can rage 18 rounds and day and is 1 point stronger…

The fantastic are more so with a 10 point buy.

IF you DO meet an 18 str PC, chances are he's raided points from his other stats and meets the stereo type, the balanced heroes will be more Bruce Wayne and Less BANE.

Pendagast --

I agree with you that 10 point buy can be interesting to play. But it can be disheartening to have PCs that are beaten time and again, or that have to be rescued continually by NPCs. I think that PCs should be special. When EVERYONE you meet is better than you, and it's not a comedy game, it can be really bad for player morale.

But my main point was actually the concern over the GM not liking the system he was going to run. I think that is the true red flag here, not the point buy.

Hmm

Liberty's Edge

The 10 point buy is in the Core Rulebook. It is suitable for Pathfinder.

Options, choices, stifling. Not everyone wants to spend all day on the prd or spend their money on rules. Some do.

Some folks want to be Zorro, or Rand Al'thor, etc. as soon as possible. Some want to play a grittier game. Maybe it's EASIER to see themselves in the heroes this way.

I just skimmed the Song off Ice and Fire book today. Talk about low powered. NO spell magic. Very very little healing. All social encounters and combat.

Some folks just don't want that extreme either.


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Pendagast wrote:
the MAIN purpose for low point buy is to make the monsters more monstrous.

So... instead of adjusting the CR of several encounters, adjust the party down?

Pendagast wrote:
IF you DO meet an 18 str PC, chances are he's raided points from his other stats and meets the stereo type, the balanced heroes will be more Bruce Wayne and Less BANE.

Bruce Wayne isn't a balanced character. He has... like, what, an effective five doctoral degrees and trained to be a ninja, which would speak to seriously above average stats to be able to cross train in several different fields and excel in them all. He also gets to ignore wealth by level. I cannot imagine that really working with a 10 point buy, ever.

Hmm wrote:
. . . it can be disheartening to have PCs that are beaten time and again, or that have to be rescued continually by NPCs. I think that PCs should be special. When EVERYONE you meet is better than you, and it's not a comedy game, it can be really bad for player morale. . . .

It's funny you should say this. It reminds me of a 2nd edition game where I played a caster and the GM had a hate on for casters. No matter what I did, I failed. I came in with a straight 10s human fighter, and he was allowed to do everything the caster should have been able to do in spades.

GM bias will kill enjoyment like nothing else.


Hmm wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
Hmm wrote:

My one experience with low point buy was awful, because it applied only to the PCs. The NPCs were "rolled" randomly, and always had better stats than we did. We just got clobbered all the time, and then were told about all the loot that we had missed out on...

I am not concerned with low point buy if everything in the world matches it. If the whole adventure is balanced towards low point buy, the point buy does not matter. What really concerns me here is that the GM has stated he does not like Pathfinder.

GMs should not GM for game systems they don't like, because then they are endlessly "fixing" them. If you're playing under a GM who doesn't like the game, pretty soon no one will.

Either play a system that the GM likes, or step up and GM the kind of game you want to play.

Hmm

the MAIN purpose for low point buy is to make the monsters more monstrous.

Ex. an ogre has an 19 str…. big deal when even half orc barbarian thats ever been in your party has that or better at 1st level.

You find a belt of giant str…no matter to just sell that, it's worthless, the barbarian can rage 18 rounds and day and is 1 point stronger…

The fantastic are more so with a 10 point buy.

IF you DO meet an 18 str PC, chances are he's raided points from his other stats and meets the stereo type, the balanced heroes will be more Bruce Wayne and Less BANE.

Pendagast --

I agree with you that 10 point buy can be interesting to play. But it can be disheartening to have PCs that are beaten time and again, or that have to be rescued continually by NPCs. I think that PCs should be special. When EVERYONE you meet is better than you, and it's not a comedy game, it can be really bad for player morale.

But my main point was actually the concern over the GM not liking the system he was going to run. I think that is the true red flag here, not the point buy.

Hmm

Where are you getting "everyone you meet is better than you" from?

10 pt buy =/= PCs suck NPCs rock.

what if I told you, you can have a 25 pt buy?
Yippie!
Except now, nothing you do or have is special in anyway.
Magic is everywhere, the cook int he tavern is a half dragon ettin than can bend your barbarian into a pretzel.
Anything you do is scried upon by a cabal of wizards that have nothing better to do than scry on you and then send one of their 15th level barbarian sherifs deputies to beat on you every time you jay walk.

Yea… welcome to dark sun! Incredibly high stats and you're still a peon!

how does the value of a point buy define how your play experience will be?


If you want to be powerful and help the party succeed in what might be a very challenging campaign then Summoner would be great, especially if you can get somebody to play a Cleric. Making that Cleric an Evangelist with the Animal domain might help a bit. I think a Druid could be nice too since you'd have a pet and potentially some summons to do the fighting and you'd get some great mobility and immunity from the elemental wildshapes.

If you'd rather just fit in and go along with whatever the DM has in mind that's cool too, but you could find yourself on an unpleasant railroad ride. Watch out for the dreaded DMPC, especially if it controls healing or other magic for the party.


I actually had that play experience TWICE.

Once, literally almost what I described above… masterly powerful overlords who knew exactly everything about us because "magic" and super high level "retried" adventurers that had an interest in every bar brawl we were ever involved in.

Game lasted a few sessions.

in 1994 I was convinced by people I normally table top with, to join their LARP group because they had a whole in the adverting party and needed a certain set of skills.

I made a character that was essentially a thunder cat, the race was particularly powerful for multiple reasons, with the draw back that it ate twice as much as a human (so it cost a lot more to feed it) money is pretty scarce in the game.

The character race had claws and two weapon fighting (called florentine) as racial abilities so it's weapons couldn't be damaged, dropped or destroyed (something that happened A LOT in the game… advertures OFTEN found themselves penniless and weaponless)

So I acquiesced to join and help, even though I did not like dressing up like Rum Tum Tugger from "cats"

My character was an assassin (called a night blade)

I killed my first towns person on my second weekend of play…it was actually quite an accident as I thought I had knocked him out.

Before I could get back to town, our group was arrested by no less than 12 towns guard (3 to 1 out numbered) who were all easily twice our level.
Some how, everyone knew we had killed someone, yet no one was there to witness it, and the dead person had somehow conveyed to the constabulary that our party had used illegal black magic spells (which we had) but there were no living survivors to tell anyone that.

We also scored ZERO loot fromt he encounter and my character ACTUALLY starved to death because I couldn't pay the character maintenance.

When I complained out of character to the game marshals, I was basically told there were "magical" reasons for what had happened that was for our characters to figure out and discover and oh by the way… the peasants had their treasure scotched tapped to the under neath of furniture…. I was told if he had searched we would had found potions scrolls and money… of course scotched up under crap…

Obviously I didn't continue to play that game.

not long after, they canceled the ability to use my character race and class that I had chosen in that game… due to it being "too powerful"

Was it better that a human warrior?
Sure.
Did it matter?

Not in THAT campaign.


Devilkiller wrote:

If you want to be powerful and help the party succeed in what might be a very challenging campaign then Summoner would be great, especially if you can get somebody to play a Cleric. Making that Cleric an Evangelist with the Animal domain might help a bit. I think a Druid could be nice too since you'd have a pet and potentially some summons to do the fighting and you'd get some great mobility and immunity from the elemental wildshapes.

If you'd rather just fit in and go along with whatever the DM has in mind that's cool too, but you could find yourself on an unpleasant railroad ride. Watch out for the dreaded DMPC, especially if it controls healing or other magic for the party.

Im missing something… whats especially advantageous about an evangelist in this situation?

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