10 Point Buy...wooo


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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:


Where are you getting "everyone you meet is better than you" from?

Pendagast --

I was not talking about 10 pt buy in general, but my experience specifically with it in a campaign where we were all low point buy and all the NPCs we met were "randomly" rolled so that they wound up with four or more stats in the 15-20 rage. It was awful. We were outclassed by everyone we met.

I had expressed my hope that if the point buy is 10, that the NPCs are similarly scaled, so that party members can shine. That's all. I was just sharing a bad memory of a being under a less than ideal GM.

My apologies if this was unclear.

I am leaving this thread now, since my main concern was not so much about the point buy, but the GM's dislike of the system he was running.
Hmm


Honestly, a 10 point buy is sufficient for any class or archetype, so play what you want. The only builds that really suffer from low point buy are builds that require feats with ability score pre-reqs (Combat Expertise, I'm looking at you).

Really, all a low point buy means is your numbers are going to be a bit lower (AC, hit, damage, saves, etc.) Mechanically it's no different from the monsters' numbers being a bit higher (-1 AC is exactly the same as +1 hit). Bear in mind that monsters are going to be a bit more powerful compared to the PCs, but that's obviously what the GM is going for, so just roll with it.


Rundown of class viability with 10 point buy:

Barbarian: Workable with stat dumping.
Bard: Caster/bardsong only. Combat Bards are too MAD to be worthwhile.
Cleric: Caster only. Combat Clerics are too MAD.
Druid: Can do either combat monster or caster.
Fighter: Works only with massive stat dumping. You now fail all Will saves.
Monk: No
Paladin: You are a fighter who cannot dump Cha.
Ranger: If you make it to 4th level you can finally hide behind your pet.
Rogue: You can either have combat utility or non combat utility. If you go for combat your non Dex skills will suck, if you have decent mental stats you suck in combat.
Sorcerer: Works just fine
Wizard: Works just fine
Alchemist: Works just fine
Cavalier: See Fighter
Gunslinger: You are a fighter who cannot dump Wis. At least you can make Will saves.
Inquisitor: Caster only. Combat Inquisitors are too MAD.
Magus: You are a scimitar wielding dervish
Oracle: Caster only. Combat Oracles are too MAD.
Summoner: Works just fine
Witch: Works just fine.
Arcanist: Works just fine.
Bloodrager: You are a Barbarian who had to put his points for Con into Cha.
Brawler: See Fighter
Hunter: You are a decent caster with a pet to hide behind.
Investigator: You are a Rogue who needs mental stats. At least you have extracts to help.
Shaman: Works just fine.
Skald: You are a Bard. Deal with it.
Slayer: Works with massive stat dumping.
Swashbuckler: You are a fighter who can't dump Cha.
Warpriest: Can do either combat or caster.


I actually just rolled up a cohort using the 3d6 method which appears to have under 10 point buy. After some racial adjustments the final scores look like Str7 Dex13 Con15 Int9 Wis7 Cha15. This might still make a serviceable Bard though I worry a little about whether such a character will be able to survive the rigors of a game with Mythic PCs. Having a cohort at all is some very powerful frosting on my already Mythic cake, but I'm still hoping the DM will let me use 4d6 instead.

@Pendagast - Besides helping to provide the healing often needed by PCs in oppressive campaigns the Evangelist could preach Inspire Courage to the pets and summons to give them an edge in combat. With Animal Domain and Boon Companion it could also provide a nice melee pet.

@thorin001 - Without some heavy investment it seems like the Fighter fails all Will saves anyhow

Sovereign Court

thorin001 wrote:

Bard: Caster/bardsong only. Combat Bards are too MAD to be worthwhile.

I think that a combat bard would be fine.

Halfling bard.
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

Pick up Finesse & Fencing Grace ASAP and your melee will be decent. If you focus on buff spells the DCs don't matter. (My PFS bard only has a Cha of 14.) If you pick up the armor expert trait, you can eventually pick up a mithril breastplate; with that and a shield your AC will be very solid.

I'm with some others on here - I just don't think that a 10pt buy is all THAT big of a nerf.

Will you be able to play the EXACT same builds that you're used to? No. But as long as the GM takes that into account - it doesn't matter. If he doesn't take it into account? He's a bad GM and you would have had issues with him anyway. :P

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

This discussion is reminding me of a multi-campaign idea/arc that I thought up a while back.

The initial idea is that the campaign world is dominated by eldritch Things, who have a thriving civilization and use the humanoids as slave races. One of the Things is experimenting with augmenting some minions and the results of these experiments are the PCs- 10 point buy PCs, but also the only people in the world with PC character classes. All other beings are either monsters or PC race characters with the 3 point NPC array and NPC classes. The general campaign arc would be to liberate the world for the humanoid races.

The multi-campaign idea would be that the next campaign would have the players playing reincarnations of their previous characters, using the same base stat array but with 5 more points to spend. The legendary heroes are reborn to face a new threat sort of thing. Each successive campaign would add 5 more points to the array until the 25 point campaign which would be the capstone and probably also mythic. Using only small modifications to the stat array means they would likely be similar classes each time, but that would not be required.

Never got this one past the concept stage but it still seems fun with the right group.


In the unlikely even that the OP is still paying attention within a pointless debate on what constitutes fun

... and given that I am partial to arcane casters, ... here are two fire themed character

Ifrit Blood Arcanist (Elemental: Fire)
Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Wis: 8
Int: 16
Cha: 12

and the obvious

Goblin Fire Bomber
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Wis: 10
Int: 16
Cha: 8


2 people marked this as a favorite.

How about a Dragon Disciple? Stat boosts are nice in a regular game, but are absolute life savers in low point buy.

Dark Archive

thorin001 wrote:

Rundown of class viability with 10 point buy:

Barbarian: Workable with stat dumping.
Bard: Caster/bardsong only. Combat Bards are too MAD to be worthwhile.
Cleric: Caster only. Combat Clerics are too MAD.
Druid: Can do either combat monster or caster.
Fighter: Works only with massive stat dumping. You now fail all Will saves.
Monk: No
Paladin: You are a fighter who cannot dump Cha.
Ranger: If you make it to 4th level you can finally hide behind your pet.
Rogue: You can either have combat utility or non combat utility. If you go for combat your non Dex skills will suck, if you have decent mental stats you suck in combat.
Sorcerer: Works just fine
Wizard: Works just fine
Alchemist: Works just fine
Cavalier: See Fighter
Gunslinger: You are a fighter who cannot dump Wis. At least you can make Will saves.
Inquisitor: Caster only. Combat Inquisitors are too MAD.
Magus: You are a scimitar wielding dervish
Oracle: Caster only. Combat Oracles are too MAD.
Summoner: Works just fine
Witch: Works just fine.
Arcanist: Works just fine.
Bloodrager: You are a Barbarian who had to put his points for Con into Cha.
Brawler: See Fighter
Hunter: You are a decent caster with a pet to hide behind.
Investigator: You are a Rogue who needs mental stats. At least you have extracts to help.
Shaman: Works just fine.
Skald: You are a Bard. Deal with it.
Slayer: Works with massive stat dumping.
Swashbuckler: You are a fighter who can't dump Cha.
Warpriest: Can do either combat or caster.

Let's debunk a few of these!

Combat Inquisitor: Str 17, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8
First feats: Improved Initiative, Toughness

Bloodrager: Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12
First feats: Iron Will, Power Attack

Combat Bard: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 13
First feats: Arcane Strike, Lingering Performance

MAD does not mean unplayable. It just means you can't afford an 18.

Grand Lodge

So let's look at the facts:

1) You're in a 10-point buy. Every MAD class is out.

2) Your GM is always looking to destroy companions.

Synthesist Summoner. Dump everything but CHA (keep CON at 10 for level up) and make your GM cry. 2nd level go Lore Oracle so you can add CHA to AC and eventually qualify for that feat that lets Divine casters add their CHA to all saves.

Pretty much everything but your to-hit/damage is going to be covered by CHA, and that won't be too shabby thanks to your merged form. The GM can focus on attacking the "companion" still, but that means having to go toe-to-toe with you, and you can buff yourself out the wazoo and litter the battlefield with critters at the same time.

Sadly, this will suck for the other party members, but if it comes down to that or dying every other session, I say this might make him reconsider 10-point buy. All it does is lock players into boxes without actually making things more challenging.

Shadow Lodge

Hmm wrote:

GMs should not GM for game systems they don't like, because then they are endlessly "fixing" them. If you're playing under a GM who doesn't like the game, pretty soon no one will.

Either play a system that the GM likes, or step up and GM the kind of game you want to play.

Hmm

Possibly the most important point made. If your GM does not like Pathfinder why is your GM running a Pathfinder game?

That said, low point games tend to favor humans as you extra feat and +2 on your choice of stat becomes all the more important in character design. Half-elves and Half-orcs are really good in a low point game as well, for similar reasons. Other races can function just fine but become even more dependent on lining their stat bonuses and class choices up. You wind up with stereotypical elven wizards and ifrit sorcerers; but that's not really a bad thing. Just something to remember.

Also picking a dump stat becomes important. Since you can't be reasonably competent at most stat and awesome in one or two stats, you have to accept being crap at something in order to play any MAD class. That's life.

I'm going to agree with all the players recommending a summoner too. Eidelon as a skill monkey and summoned creatures to fight for you. Skill focus - Conjuration and Augmented Summoning as starting feats.

Liberty's Edge

thorin001 wrote:
Rundown of class viability with 10 point buy:

Uh...no. The characters you list as 'too MAD' are almost universally pretty viable with a little stat dumping. And both Investigator and Inquisitor have ways to make some stats completely unnecessary.

A Conversion Inquisitor specialized in melee can go:

Str 16 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 7, and grab Heavy Armor Proficiency, and be good to go, and still solid at social skills to boot. He can do even better as an Oread.

An Empiricist Investigator with Student of Philosophy using Weapon Finesse (and eventually Fencing Grace) can go:

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 7 Cha 7

And suffer no skill penalties from the Cha or Wis starting at 2nd level. His Will Save will be +0 at 1st level, but it'll advance quick enough, since that's a Good Save for an Investigator.

And so on and so forth. Gunslingers and Swashbucklers may need to keep a mental stat up, but they can ditch Str to do it pretty readily.

Ditto Rangers or Combat Cleric, or a dozen other builds. You're mostly right on a few things, but only a few.


I'd boycott my GM, lol


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Actually, a Swashbuckler can dump Cha. Regardless of charisma, you get at least one panache point, so you need to get up to 14 or more (probably too expensive) to get that second point. So go ahead, dump charisma, and take Extra Panache as your first feat.

Similar notes apply for the Gunslinger and Wis.

For the synthesist summoner, you do NOT want a Con of 10 -- that is an immediate loss of your level in hit points if your eidolon suit is lost, which has an ever increasing chance of killing you. You need a Con of at least 12 and a higher Cha -- all other stats can be dumped to 10 or less.


David knott 242 wrote:
For the synthesist summoner, you do NOT want a Con of 10 -- that is an immediate loss of your level in hit points if your eidolon suit is lost, which has an ever increasing chance of killing you. You need a Con of at least 12 and a higher Cha -- all other stats can be dumped to 10 or less.

Yes and no. You're only going to lose the eidolon if you get knocked unconscious or hit with a successful banishment-type magical effect*. Let's say you drop from a +1 to a -1 con mod (base constitution for an eidolon is 13). At level 10 that's 20 hit points and will take you from -1 HP to -21 and dead. Compare that to the raging barbarian who goes from a +3 to a +1 con mod. He will likewise only do that in combat if knocked unconscious or Calm Emotion'd. Which at level 10 can take him from -1 hp to -21 and dead. In both cases if you fall unconscious from damage you basically explode.

The exploding barbarian has been around so long people don't even think about it, it's just part of how the barbarian works. Same applies to this theoretical synthesist summoner. And a summoner can heal itself once it "redlines" its hit point total. A barbarian's options are more limited in that regard.

I mean, it's not like you are one of those fancy book-learning casters, or studious thinkers that spends his time being cautious. You can be as dumb and crazyenergetic and thrill-seeking as any melee class.

*trying to cover all the bases without getting bogged down in the subject.


Dwarf zen archer monk. I could be wrong but by lvl 3 they get wisdom to attacks and AC, full bab with flurry, great saves across the board. As a ranged character you can avoid combat but can still punch a foo if it calls for it. And without armor costs you can get a head start on magic items to counter some of that low point buy.

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