I actually recently was bored enough to roll 4d6 drop the lowest here on the forums (didn't end up posting-- thread was a necro and I didn't notice until I had spent aeons sitting there fiddling with dice) and ended up with a character with 11 17 17 18 17 15. 64 point buy.
There's no point to rolling if the GM would make me re-roll-- that argument feels a lot like the "Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it" argument, but I think it's pretty valid. Can the GM roll a stat line so bad that even he wouldn't let himself re-roll it?
I can think of a few Paladin, Monk or Magus builds that could take this stat line and be double absurd.
I personally love rolling. It's in the spirit of a lot of games I play in-- and it makes a lot of games, like Warhammer, a lot more fun when you roll a character who is amazingly good. If everyone in the group is okay with being the b%$~@, then that's fine. But all it takes is one person who wanted to be the star rolling a b!#++ stat line to ruin the entire game.
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When I first started in 3.0, we used 4d6 drop the lowest. Those who got low stats felt constantly overshadowed by those with higher stats. If 4 out of 6 people are unhappy then something is wrong.
We decided instead to go with an Array. Each of 6 players would roll 4d6, and drop the lowest. That was the array, arrange as desired and add racials.
Now I just use my odd array: 17, 15, 13, 11, 10, 9. Players are on equal footing and racial choices are meaningful (an elf and dwarf with stats arranged in the same order will be quite different).
We decided instead to go with an Array. Each of 6 players would roll 4d6, and drop the lowest. That was the array, arrange as desired and add racials.
That's what our group does. The RotRL crew I'm currently GMing for are all rocking 17, 16, 15, 14, 11, 11.
Have any here considered the following method? Bobchuck explained it back in May in a similar forum. With this method all characters end up with the same point buy total, but dice play a role in how the points are concentrated and distributed. Basically - before using the point buy method, use 1d4+6 to deterimine the minumum score for each ability. More high rolls = greater distribution of stats. Lower rolls = freedom to emphasize one stat at the expense of others.
Here is the method...
I like the method that my last GM and I came up with. It's basically "point buy rolling".
He likes the idea of rolling stats (in order), because it can lead to neat stat arrangement and wacky fun. I hated the idea of rolling stats, because you are far more likely to get horribly screwed than you are to get something super awesome, and having one person with super awesome stats while you have crap stats is not fun.
So we, through multiple iterations, eventually settled on a compromise that we both liked.
1) Roll 2d4+6, in order. These are your "starting" stats, and you cannot subtract from them (except through race, which isn't applied yet).
For example: 13, 11, 9, 12, 10, 11.2) Go through point buy normally, but using your starting stats as the minimum value.
For Example: say 15 point buy. The base stats are good for any melee guy, though the Int suggests a class that could use skills more than a Fighter. Lets go with Barbarian, raise Dex to 12, Con to 14; checking the totals, that's 2+5+2+0+1=10, plus at least 3 for the 13 str. Unfortunately, there's only 2 points left, which need to go into strength, so the final character looks like 14, 12, 14, 12, 10, 11 - functional for a barbarian, but not min-maxed, with a little chaos thrown in.3) apply race, levels, class, etc etc.
Have any here considered the following method? Bobchuck explained it back in May in a similar forum. With this method all characters end up with the same point buy total, but dice play a role in how the points are concentrated and distributed. Basically - before using the point buy method, use 1d4+6 to deterimine the minumum score for each ability. More high rolls = greater distribution of stats. Lower rolls = freedom to emphasize one stat at the expense of others.
Here is the method...
I like the method that my last GM and I came up with. It's basically "point buy rolling".
He likes the idea of rolling stats (in order), because it can lead to neat stat arrangement and wacky fun. I hated the idea of rolling stats, because you are far more likely to get horribly screwed than you are to get something super awesome, and having one person with super awesome stats while you have crap stats is not fun.
So we, through multiple iterations, eventually settled on a compromise that we both liked.
1) Roll 2d4+6, in order. These are your "starting" stats, and you cannot subtract from them (except through race, which isn't applied yet).
For example: 13, 11, 9, 12, 10, 11.2) Go through point buy normally, but using your starting stats as the minimum value.
For Example: say 15 point buy. The base stats are good for any melee guy, though the Int suggests a class that could use skills more than a Fighter. Lets go with Barbarian, raise Dex to 12, Con to 14; checking the totals, that's 2+5+2+0+1=10, plus at least 3 for the 13 str. Unfortunately, there's only 2 points left, which need to go into strength, so the final character looks like 14, 12, 14, 12, 10, 11 - functional for a barbarian, but not min-maxed, with a little chaos thrown in.3) apply race, levels, class, etc etc.
Did BobChuck have a solution for what happens if your starting min stats were beyond the point buy limits for the campaign?
Did BobChuck have a solution for what happens if your starting min stats were beyond the point buy limits for the campaign?Have any here considered the following method?
I didn't see another post. But I would just have the players remove points selectively until they get to the point buy limit. It is not a fully random process anyway.
Have any here considered the following method?Did BobChuck have a solution for what happens if your starting min stats were beyond the point buy limits for the campaign?I didn't see another post. But I would just have the players remove points selectively until they get to the point buy limit. It is not a fully random process anyway.
So, the GM sets a point buy limit, then the players roll anyway to set a baseline, then they add or remove points in order to reach the point buy limit.
Looks like BobChuck's methods merges the worst of both worlds to me.
Have any here considered the following method?Did BobChuck have a solution for what happens if your starting min stats were beyond the point buy limits for the campaign?I didn't see another post. But I would just have the players remove points selectively until they get to the point buy limit. It is not a fully random process anyway.
So, the GM sets a point buy limit, then the players roll anyway to set a baseline, then they add or remove points in order to reach the point buy limit.
Looks like BobChuck's methods merges the worst of both worlds to me.
Now that I think about it further, I agree. Just stick to the point buy system and be done with it. Why complicate things further?
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In an attempt to please everyone.
1st round: All players that want to roll for stats agree (or are dictated to by the DM) on a method and roll their stats.
2nd round: All players that want to point buy take the mean (average) of the random rolls as the number of points and distribute accordingly.
Well, it could work. You just have to make sure the "average" points isn't one player with awesome scores and two with ridiculously low scores.
I guess its time for me to chime in with my personal method. For a one off adventure it's pre-gen characters from the book (some book). For a AP style campaign I create and tweak a character for every one of my players. While I try to keep the power levels similar as the DM I will make exceptions for plot reasons, balance reasons (a couple extra points for the monk), and knowledge of my players preferred play styles as well as their propensity for abuse. I also take the time to create a two page character synopsis for each character with a short background, current relationships (both NPC and PC), and goals.
No offense intended, but I sure wouldn't touch your games from a 10 foot pole if I'd have to pick a pre-generated character instead of creating one, especially if your idea of "balance" differs from mine (extra points for the monk is cool for a vanilla one, but unnecessary overkill with the good archetypes and feats, especially since UC).
While I can understand the interest of a deep story and tied characters, I would really prefer the DM to tell me it would be nice to include these details and work with other players so I can come with characters already knowing each other, instead of having to play yours.I would only feel like I'm playing heroes of someone's novel, and shucks to be me if I don't become what the author intended.
Have any here considered the following method?Did BobChuck have a solution for what happens if your starting min stats were beyond the point buy limits for the campaign?I didn't see another post. But I would just have the players remove points selectively until they get to the point buy limit. It is not a fully random process anyway.
So, the GM sets a point buy limit, then the players roll anyway to set a baseline, then they add or remove points in order to reach the point buy limit.
Looks like BobChuck's methods merges the worst of both worlds to me.
I thought, based on this: "Roll 2d4+6, in order. These are your "starting" stats, and you cannot subtract from them (except through race, which isn't applied yet)"
that you couldn't subtract from the baseline stats, barring racial adjustments.
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I thought, based on this: "Roll 2d4+6, in order. These are your "starting" stats, and you cannot subtract from them (except through race, which isn't applied yet)"
that you couldn't subtract from the baseline stats, barring racial adjustments.
I don't like this. I shouldn't be restricted to playing average stats if I want low ones - even if I can't increase something else to compensate.
I removed some heated posts (if you don't think someone is worth responding to, then don't.)
I also removed replies to those posts.
I also removed some attempts to bring in forum drama from another forum.
We roll dice because we feel that the 25 point "epic" buy is fairly useless.
The cost per ability score ramps up too much and forces you to dump several things to have a couple of good stats. If there were more points/less cost, we might use PB.
No, we're not going to fiddle with the chart on our own, that's WORK...
Easier to just roll the traditional 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s.
In order to avoid the "fifth wheel" situation, we all look at each others rolls, choose one set, and everyone uses those numbers.
So if one of us rolled 17, 16, 16, 6, 10 & 15; we could all generate a character using those numbers. Since we average four players, we usually have a pretty good spread of rolls to pick from.
If someone desperately wanted to use PB, they could, but they'd be alone in doing so and would have to live with it.
Our group has reached a consensus that an 18 is no longer particularly impressive. Given how easy it is to raise or lower stats through various means, we don't consider a 20 (after racial adjustment)at lvl 1 to be awe-inspiring. Monsters/NPCs regularly have stats into the 20s or higher, I'm not going to play a character with a 16 in a main stat just so I can feel good about not taking chances with random die rolls.
For the sake of speed and simplicity, I've run some games where stats are 1d10+8, no re-rolls. But that's mostly so I can feel justified in throwing lots of powerful monsters at the party.
Easier to just roll the traditional 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s.
That's about a 30 point buy on average.
In order to avoid the "fifth wheel" situation, we all look at each others rolls, choose one set, and everyone uses those numbers.
So if one of us rolled 17, 16, 16, 6, 10 & 15; we could all generate a character using those numbers. Since we average four players, we usually have a pretty good spread of rolls to pick from.
Wait, you get to try it four times and pick the best set?
<head asplodes>
I guess its time for me to chime in with my personal method. For a one off adventure it's pre-gen characters from the book (some book). For a AP style campaign I create and tweak a character for every one of my players. While I try to keep the power levels similar as the DM I will make exceptions for plot reasons, balance reasons (a couple extra points for the monk), and knowledge of my players preferred play styles as well as their propensity for abuse. I also take the time to create a two page character synopsis for each character with a short background, current relationships (both NPC and PC), and goals. I will run a short solo or duo "background adventure" before everyone meets for the first group session.
You sound like you make really amazing characters. I would squeeze my way through a doggie door and escape before I'd let you make mine.
Easier to just roll the traditional 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s.That's about a 30 point buy on average.
In order to avoid the "fifth wheel" situation, we all look at each others rolls, choose one set, and everyone uses those numbers.
So if one of us rolled 17, 16, 16, 6, 10 & 15; we could all generate a character using those numbers. Since we average four players, we usually have a pretty good spread of rolls to pick from.
Wait, you get to try it four times and pick the best set?
<head asplodes>
We have a player who consistently rolls below average. Doesn't even matter if he changes dice. He's like some kind of entropy-sink. So typically it's three rolls that are actually being considered. And yeah, we look over the numbers and decide on which set we all want to commit to. Then we have a beer and talk about poop. It's a bunch of guys relaxing, not trying to earn gamer street-cred.
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Kuma, have you considered having each player roll one number each and use that stat line for the whole group? Then you have the lucky players countering the unlucky players.
You know, I'd like to try this method some time.
Players get their choice between the following two options.
Option 1: Roll 5d6 drop the lowest 7 times, take the best 6.
Did you mean 4d6, or drop lowest 2, or did you mean 5d6 drop lowest?
Because I've done 5d6 drop lowest and it's awesome.
Kuma, have you considered having each player roll one number each and use that stat line for the whole group? Then you have the lucky players countering the unlucky players.
No.
Because everyone else tends to roll like normal people, high/low mix, there is real potential for crappy stats if we all just roll one number apiece. And we'd need six players to roll like that, or some people would be rolling multiple numbers while others wouldn't.
It sounds like a fun experiment but not something we'd want to put up with for an entire campaign.
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One of our DM's does it this way
Ability generation goes as follows:
- Roll 3d6 for each stat in order STR,DEX,CON,INT,WIS,CHR
- You have a pool of 7 dice that you can pull a single dice from to re-roll any single d6 roll in any of the stats you wish. You take the higher of the existing d6 roll or the re-roll. You can continue to attempt re-rolls to get something higher as long as you have dice remaining in your pool.
- You get one free stat swap. Meaning you can swap the score from one ability with another.
HERO POINTS
You can make additional swap by spending a hero point. (This can only be done once)
You can buy an additional 2 dice for your pool by spending a hero point. (can only be done once)
Here is an example: (say I am trying to create a dwarf Paladin) In this example I didn't use any hero points.
Starting rolls:
STR: 13 (3,4,6)
DEX: 11 (1,4,6)
CON: 14 (4,5,6)
INT: 14 (4,4,6)
WIS: 12 (1,5,6)
CHR: 17 (5,6,6)
Re-Rolls (Using my pool of 7 dice): (I didn't need more dice, but I could have spent a hero point to get 2 more dice in the pool if I wanted)
STR: 17 (5,6,6) Used 2 dice from the pool (re-rolling the 3 and 4 and luckily getting a 5 and 6)
DEX: 16 (6,4,6) Used 2 dice (re-rolling the 1, and getting a 2 then deciding to roll once more and getting a 6)
CON: 17 (6,5,6) Used 1 dice (re-rolling the 4 and lucking out with a 6)
INT: 14 No reroll
WIS: 15 (4,5,6) Used 2 Dice (re-rolling the 1 and getting a 3, rolling again and getting a 4)
CHR: 17 No reroll
Used the free swap to swap stats (Dex and Wis) then applied Dwarf stat mods (+2
Con, +2 Wis, -2 Chr).
Final:
STR: 17
DEX: 15
CON: 19
INT: 14
WIS: 18
CHR: 15
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Because everyone else tends to roll like normal people, high/low mix, there is real potential for crappy stats if we all just roll one number apiece.
Can we clarify this please? Because I read that as 'I only like rolling for stats if there is no potential for crappy stats'.
Oh I bet you had fun playing the Dwarven Fantasy version of Sherlock Holmes :P
Well, full disclosure, his second level was wizard, aiming for eldritch knight. We finished the first module of Crimson Throne without killing any of our enemies. Non-lethal FTW!
Point buy is the only balanced and fair way to go when generating stats. You say point buy helps munchkins I think that you're lying. Any DM that is dumb enough to allow people to roll is setting themselves up for extremely inconsistent stats. If any DM forces me to roll I'll agree to it and use my carnival dice in pathfinder. They are weighted for 3,4, and 6's. That is reroll 1 one and 4d6 drop lowest. This generates point buy roughly equal to around 30 to 40. Do I use them for in game combat usually? No, however sometimes you just have to make a point to a DM that thinks rolling stats is fair. Some people can get 5 point buys to 45 point buys. Do you know how bad it feels to get your highest stat as a 13?