No Love for stat rolling?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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cattoy wrote:

And if the guy with the 18 is playing a wizard? He should set up his squishy to tank or something?

That makes little sense to me. If exceptional characters like that are rare, then the party should band together to protect it, as it won't be easy to replace, rather than tossed out there to take the lion's share of risk.

Maybe your group plays differently than mine. My players love playing unusual characters... If someone had an 18 and little else in our group he would probably play a SAD character like a wizard. In that case I certainly wouldn't expect him to take point literally. But since his spells will be extra potent the group may well look to him to take battlefield control spells which give the whole group an edge in any encounters. It's all about teamwork. Now if someone generated a top heavy character with multiple high stats then they would probably tackle a MAD type character like a monk for one example. At least at my table. It would be seen as an opportunity to build something more difficult stat wise.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Whirlwind Attack is munchkin. :P

Liiiiaaaaaaar

Whirlwind Attack has nothing to do with the little guys from The Wizard of Oz.

Of course it does. They're small, so a lot of them fit within reach.

It's perfect for them.

The Exchange

The best reason to roll for me is if I get a high number, I can play a race with a penalty in the primary stat. If I get an 18 a halfling can be a decent str based char. Point Buying for this would be horrible (17 points for 10 pt value).

Rolling gets you stats where you don't want them, the extra int or chr or str might not matter for your character concept, giving you points that are not as valuable to you. ( many methods may make that comment untrue)

Point buy is harder for new people to make choices on...(it's positives have already been stated)

Either method I will have more fun than you :) so I win. Don't make me roll to confirm, I wouldn't want to kill the thread.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haha.

At some point I might take a group and tell them, "Choose whatever stats you feel is appropriate for your character concept."

No point buy. No rolling. Just pick the numbers. :P

It'll probably end up more 'fair' than most rolling methods.

I actually see this as a great idea. I would take it one step further and help them down the path by aiding them in understanding what each score means. I'm reminded of the beginning of Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas, where you assign points to your characters, but each individual score for each ability stated what it represented (idiotic to slow-witted to average to bright to genius to omniscient, etc.) Perhaps a list with well-known sample characters at each point (or at least increments) so that players, thinking of their concept, would have an idea of where their character should "land."

This is a fascinating concept and it would be easy to tell if someone was being unreasonable when they put down that their character is as mighty as Conan, as strong-willed as Frodo, as smart as Elric and as dextrous as the Gray Mouser. If the GM has any confidence that the players aren't simply going to run away with the horses as it were, it could provide an opportunity for players to play exactly what they want.


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Rolling for ability scores could work if you extend the point buy to features other than ability scores -- then you would subtract the point cost from whatever you rolled and use whatever is left over to buy other features. Of course, doing that would require coming up with point costs for said other features....

The Exchange

David knott 242 wrote:

Rolling for ability scores could work if you extend the point buy to features other than ability scores -- then you would subtract the point cost from whatever you rolled and use whatever is left over to buy other features. Of course, doing that would require coming up with point costs for said other features....

That sounds fun, 2 points per trait, extra 2 HP, or extra skill point, 5 points to be able to gain hero points, know a trustworth contact somewhere useful, or to reroll one d6 at character creation. You have to roll or spend all of your points.

For every 5 points over point buy, you gain one powerful enemy who does what he can within the law to get in your way or a demonic influence allowing the enemies to gain dr5/you, or auto confirm the first crit agaist you each session, or 50% chance to start bleeding after stabilizing (each round). Or your character never gains attributes from leveling.


I used rolled (& witnessed) stats for a long time. The main problem I found was the power gap between the lucky and the unlucky. Sure, I allowed rerolls if someone ended up with a particularly unheroic set of stats, but in the end you've still got people with two (or more) 18s and others that are lucky to have a 15 as their highest stat. Point build helps to close the gap.

Heck, once I rolled straight 16s for a character (2nd Ed., so it wasn't as exciting as it would be for 3E+). I sat on those stats for days until I finally scrapped them. I just couldn't come up with a decent character concept. The numbers were just too good all around.


We've done dungeon crawls with "roll 3d6 in order. switch the place of two stats". High lethality, lots of fun. Wouldn't like it for a long campaign though.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haha.

At some point I might take a group and tell them, "Choose whatever stats you feel is appropriate for your character concept."

No point buy. No rolling. Just pick the numbers. :P

It'll probably end up more 'fair' than most rolling methods.

I recall this method from somewhere, with the addition of Hubris points. Everyone assigns there own stats and then calculates the Point Buy value. If your PB value is over a certain number, you get Hubris points. Anytime the DM needs to make a random decision, like which character will this random event/monster/attack etc... effect/hit, he picks the person with the highest Hubris score, and then subtracts 1 from that Hubris score. I wish I could remember where I saw this...memory is always the 2nd thing to go with age, I just wish I could remember the first.


Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haha.

At some point I might take a group and tell them, "Choose whatever stats you feel is appropriate for your character concept."

No point buy. No rolling. Just pick the numbers. :P

It'll probably end up more 'fair' than most rolling methods.

I recall this method from somewhere, with the addition of Hubris points. Everyone assigns there own stats and then calculates the Point Buy value. If your PB value is over a certain number, you get Hubris points. Anytime the DM needs to make a random decision, like which character will this random event/monster/attack etc... effect/hit, he picks the person with the highest Hubris score, and then subtracts 1 from that Hubris score. I wish I could remember where I saw this...memory is always the 2nd thing to go with age, I just wish I could remember the first.

I kind of like this Idea, though, I'd be more prone to subtracting more than just 1 point at a time, since if the point buy is that egregious, there's going to be a large point difference. And no one, no matter the stats can survive being picked on by the GM that much.


I once rolled abilities scores for six stats one die at a time and used the 25 point buy system while doing int

d6 rolled ability score
1st stat 3 13
2nd stat 2 12
3rd stat 4 13 add 1 to next stat since 4 is not
produce a score
4th stat 1(2) 12
5th stat 6 14 add 2 to next stat since 4 is not allowed
6th stat 2(4) 13 add 1 to the next stat

18 point buy used so far
repeat until 25 point buy is completed

1st stat 6(7) 15 22 point buy so far
2nd stat 4 **3**
since a 4 would give more than a 25 point buy it is lowered to 3

my stats are now

1st stat 15
2nd stat 13
3rd stat 13
4th stat 12
5th stat 14
6th stat 13

Now arrange to taste and add racial modifiers.
I used a d6 that time, and may use a d8 next time.


The_Kurgan wrote:
Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haha.

At some point I might take a group and tell them, "Choose whatever stats you feel is appropriate for your character concept."

No point buy. No rolling. Just pick the numbers. :P

It'll probably end up more 'fair' than most rolling methods.

I recall this method from somewhere, with the addition of Hubris points. Everyone assigns there own stats and then calculates the Point Buy value. If your PB value is over a certain number, you get Hubris points. Anytime the DM needs to make a random decision, like which character will this random event/monster/attack etc... effect/hit, he picks the person with the highest Hubris score, and then subtracts 1 from that Hubris score. I wish I could remember where I saw this...memory is always the 2nd thing to go with age, I just wish I could remember the first.
I kind of like this Idea, though, I'd be more prone to subtracting more than just 1 point at a time, since if the point buy is that egregious, there's going to be a large point difference. And no one, no matter the stats can survive being picked on by the GM that much.

If Hubris is only in effect when things would be random, I would hardly call it 'being picked on by the GM.' Instead, fate just doesn't like you.

I actually find this kind of system pretty appealing really. It means the strongest people (strongest at their core statistics, as opposed to better used training) are the ones who naturally get on probability's bad side.

Shadow Lodge

That's an interesting mechanic to ensure weaker characters take less hits.


Black_Lantern wrote:
Point buy is the only balanced and fair way to go when generating stats. You say point buy helps munchkins I think that you're lying. Any DM that is dumb enough to allow people to roll is setting themselves up for extremely inconsistent stats. If any DM forces me to roll I'll agree to it and use my carnival dice in pathfinder. They are weighted for 3,4, and 6's. That is reroll 1 one and 4d6 drop lowest. This generates point buy roughly equal to around 30 to 40. Do I use them for in game combat usually? No, however sometimes you just have to make a point to a DM that thinks rolling stats is fair. Some people can get 5 point buys to 45 point buys. Do you know how bad it feels to get your highest stat as a 13?

I agree with you central thesis, but exactly what point are you making?

"I think your method is grossly unfair, but I don't have enough confidence in this to actually use the method, so I'm going to use a different method and pretend that it was yours that resulted in inconsistent results".

I found the use of the word "usually" surprising also.

Shadow Lodge

I liked his ad hominems against rollers and admissions of malicious cheating, along with the appeal to emotion.

Still waiting on his response to my question.


TOZ wrote:
That's an interesting mechanic to ensure weaker characters take less hits.

I thought it was to "punish" those who have the hubris to make a character with too powerful stats. But you do have a good point.

Shadow Lodge

Two sides to every coin. :)


kyrt-ryder wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Whirlwind Attack is munchkin. :P

Liiiiaaaaaaar

Whirlwind Attack has nothing to do with the little guys from The Wizard of Oz.

Thought Whirlwind attack was what they used to kill the Wicked Witch of the East?


Talonhawke wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Whirlwind Attack is munchkin. :P

Liiiiaaaaaaar

Whirlwind Attack has nothing to do with the little guys from The Wizard of Oz.

Thought Whirlwind attack was what they used to kill the Wicked Witch of the East?

That's the Whirlwind quality of an Air elemental, totally different Talonhawke.

Shadow Lodge

I thought the house killed her...


TOZ wrote:
I thought the house killed her...

So you're saying if a Hulking Hurler throws a meteor at you, it's the meteor that killed you and not the wielder?


TOZ wrote:
I liked his ad hominems against rollers and admissions of malicious cheating, along with the appeal to emotion.

It's interesting how common it is - the inability to recognize that advancing poor arguments makes your case look weaker. We often get caught up grasping for anything vaguely supportive of our position when we'd be better off trying to provide to the best arguments, rather than the most.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It seems to be a theme with B_L.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
So you're saying if a Hulking Hurler throws a meteor at you, it's the meteor that killed you and not the wielder?

...yes. And guns kill people.

Edit: And 500th favorited post. :)


Valandil Ancalime wrote:


I recall this method from somewhere, with the addition of Hubris points. Everyone assigns there own stats and then calculates the Point Buy value. If your PB value is over a certain number, you get Hubris points. Anytime the DM needs to make a random decision, like which character will this random event/monster/attack etc... effect/hit, he picks the person with the highest Hubris score, and then subtracts 1 from that Hubris score. I wish I could remember where I saw this...memory is always the 2nd thing to go with age, I just wish I could remember the first.

You could also use Hubris points on rolled characters that are better than the rest of the pack.

Not a bad solution to those rare uber characters.


TOZ wrote:

I liked his ad hominems against rollers and admissions of malicious cheating, along with the appeal to emotion.

Still waiting on his response to my question.

This is why I like TOZ's posts. No nonsense, straight to the point.


TOZ wrote:

It seems to be a theme with B_L.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
So you're saying if a Hulking Hurler throws a meteor at you, it's the meteor that killed you and not the wielder?
...yes. And guns kill people.

bullets kill people, not guns* ;)

*unless used as improvised melee weapons


Laurefindel wrote:
TOZ wrote:

It seems to be a theme with B_L.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
So you're saying if a Hulking Hurler throws a meteor at you, it's the meteor that killed you and not the wielder?
...yes. And guns kill people.

bullets kill people, not guns* ;)

*unless used as improvised melee weapons

No, physics kills people. Both weapons and wielders are merely enablers.


Freesword wrote:
Laurefindel wrote:
TOZ wrote:

It seems to be a theme with B_L.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
So you're saying if a Hulking Hurler throws a meteor at you, it's the meteor that killed you and not the wielder?
...yes. And guns kill people.

bullets kill people, not guns* ;)

*unless used as improvised melee weapons

No, physics kills people. Both weapons and wielders are merely enablers.

No, Spirits kill people. Physics, and by extension, weapons and wielders merely weaken the victim's hold on the world of the living, and then the dead drag them under.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
The_Kurgan wrote:
Valandil Ancalime wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:

Haha.

At some point I might take a group and tell them, "Choose whatever stats you feel is appropriate for your character concept."

No point buy. No rolling. Just pick the numbers. :P

It'll probably end up more 'fair' than most rolling methods.

I recall this method from somewhere, with the addition of Hubris points. Everyone assigns there own stats and then calculates the Point Buy value. If your PB value is over a certain number, you get Hubris points. Anytime the DM needs to make a random decision, like which character will this random event/monster/attack etc... effect/hit, he picks the person with the highest Hubris score, and then subtracts 1 from that Hubris score. I wish I could remember where I saw this...memory is always the 2nd thing to go with age, I just wish I could remember the first.
I kind of like this Idea, though, I'd be more prone to subtracting more than just 1 point at a time, since if the point buy is that egregious, there's going to be a large point difference. And no one, no matter the stats can survive being picked on by the GM that much.

If Hubris is only in effect when things would be random, I would hardly call it 'being picked on by the GM.' Instead, fate just doesn't like you.

I actually find this kind of system pretty appealing really. It means the strongest people (strongest at their core statistics, as opposed to better used training) are the ones who naturally get on probability's bad side.

This sounds very similar to my homebrewed reputation mechanic. My stuff deals with Diplomacy checks, though.


Freesword wrote:
Laurefindel wrote:
TOZ wrote:

It seems to be a theme with B_L.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
So you're saying if a Hulking Hurler throws a meteor at you, it's the meteor that killed you and not the wielder?
...yes. And guns kill people.

bullets kill people, not guns* ;)

*unless used as improvised melee weapons

No, physics kills people. Both weapons and wielders are merely enablers.

Lack of oxygen to the brain kills people.


at this point in time, I'd like to initiate Irish diplomacy.


Steelfiredragon wrote:
at this point in time, I'd like to initiate Irish diplomacy.

I'll drink to that.


The Hubris mechanic sounds really interesting. I'll have to discuss it with my group, and try and implement it with my next campaign.

I think it all comes down to how much trust the group has. I've never used PB, but it sounds like it would be a good choice if you're running a group with players you've only recently met or optimizers/powergamers. It helps make sure the field is level. It might even be a good default choice.
I prefer rolling the stats, because to me it's part of the whole experience and I'd use that method if showing new players the game. In the campaign I'm running, it's all very casual, and so focused on the roleplaying aspect that there've been times when even the more optimized characters in the group will willingly make a 'mistake' for purposes of amusement or story. This doesn't exclude competitive monster killing between characters. I've used fairly transparent GMing for this group and letting them have more control over the story has worked wonders. I used 4d6, drop the lowest, for character creation. I consider this (roleplaying-focused, great teamwork OOC) to be an ideal game, wherein I as GM don't have to worry about part friction. Maybe this is because most of the players haven't even heard of optimization :p

Stats should be a tool and shorthand for a character, nothing more. I've had a character in a campaign who had four ability scores below ten, and he was the most successful PC in the game.


I like my players to be able to be godly so I do alternate rolling systems... 2d4+10, or 4d6drop the lowest, unless you roll all 6's you can keep the 24.


The last game I ran, I had my players decide their race/class, then assign 15/14/13/12/10/8 to their ability scores, then roll 3d6 in order and take either the rolled value or the previously assigned number, whichever was higher.

This meant players could create a character that wouldn't suck at what they wanted to be able to do while giving them a chance to be better at things that weren't core to their character.

Example:

INITIAL | ABILITY | ROLLED
8 | Strength | 15
14 | Dex | 14
12 | Con | 12
15 | Int | 8
13 | Wis | 11
10 | Cha | 14

Thus, the wizard had Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 14.

Overall, the point value is pretty high (29), but the biggest gain, Strength, isn't likely to affect the character much.

I do have to say that I really like the assign-as-you-like-plus-hubris method, though.


Randall Jhen wrote:

The last game I ran, I had my players decide their race/class, then assign 15/14/13/12/10/8 to their ability scores, then roll 3d6 in order and take either the rolled value or the previously assigned number, whichever was higher.

This meant players could create a character that wouldn't suck at what they wanted to be able to do while giving them a chance to be better at things that weren't core to their character.

Example:

INITIAL | ABILITY | ROLLED
8 | Strength | 15
14 | Dex | 14
12 | Con | 12
15 | Int | 8
13 | Wis | 11
10 | Cha | 14

Thus, the wizard had Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 14.

Overall, the point value is pretty high (29), but the biggest gain, Strength, isn't likely to affect the character much.

I do have to say that I really like the assign-as-you-like-plus-hubris method, though.

No racial mod?


In all but the most recent campaign I've run I use the 4D6 drop the lowest method, though for my current campaign I gave my players a ten point buy, but in the game I am a player in we're rocking a 25 point buy. It really makes no matter to me, I like both equally well.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
cattoy wrote:
Randall Jhen wrote:

The last game I ran, I had my players decide their race/class, then assign 15/14/13/12/10/8 to their ability scores, then roll 3d6 in order and take either the rolled value or the previously assigned number, whichever was higher.

This meant players could create a character that wouldn't suck at what they wanted to be able to do while giving them a chance to be better at things that weren't core to their character.

Example:

INITIAL | ABILITY | ROLLED
8 | Strength | 15
14 | Dex | 14
12 | Con | 12
15 | Int | 8
13 | Wis | 11
10 | Cha | 14

Thus, the wizard had Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 14.

Overall, the point value is pretty high (29), but the biggest gain, Strength, isn't likely to affect the character much.

I do have to say that I really like the assign-as-you-like-plus-hubris method, though.

No racial mod?

Well, yes. I just didn't include it as it has no effect on the point value of the build.

When I run games, I also skip the one-point-per-four-levels adjustment, and instead give characters one point per level, but they purchase points at the same cost as to buy them at creation, so to go from a 17 to an 18 costs four points, but to go from a 10 to an 11 only costs 1.

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