"At 15th level, a tetori gains the constrict special attack, inflicting his unarmed strike damage on any successful grapple check."
"Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check"
No conflict here. No natural weapon needed.
"Final Embrace (Combat)
Prerequisite: Str 13, Int 3; naga, serpentfolk, or creature that has the constrict special attack; base attack bonus +3."
Benefit: You gain the constrict and grab special attacks. Your constrict attack deals damage equal to your unarmed strike or primary natural weapon melee attack."
So the "coils" mentioned in the fluff text, "Your coils are particularly deadly, allowing you to constrict opponents of your size or smaller.", is directed at the naga and serpentfolk. There is NO natural weapon needed so it's lose only means you must use unarmed damage. Still no conflict.
This depends on where one gets the constrict ability. If it is from the 15th level monk class ability, then it would carry over to any reincarnated body, as it is a learned behavior, and you would remain eligible for the Final Embrace feat. However, if it is a racial ability from serpentfolk, or other monstrous creature, related to it's coil, then constrict would go away, and with it, eligibility for Final Embrace. Final Embrace would no longer work, and would be a useless feat until retrained.
This depends on where one gets the constrict ability. If it is from the 15th level monk class ability, then it would carry over to any reincarnated body, as it is a learned behavior, and you would remain eligible for the Final Embrace feat. However, if it is a racial ability from serpentfolk, or other monstrous creature, related to it's coil, then constrict would go away, and with it, eligibility for Final Embrace. Final Embrace would no longer work, and would be a useless feat until retrained.
Serpentfolk have two arms, two legs, and a tail.
They don't attack with the tail, so I have a hard time believing it's so necessary to the Feat.
All the Constrict special attack requires is for someone to be able to squeeze someone else. If a Tetori can do it with a bear hug, anybody can do it with this Feat.
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Okay. So we're obviously approaching things from different viewpoints. To keep things simple...
Developers. Can a feat fulfill it's own prerequisites, or is a feat only "active" if you can meet all prerequisites in the absence of itself? Or is there some other possibility that isn't elaborated upon here?
In order to get this answered, I'd ask folks to FAQ this post.
Okay. So we're obviously approaching things from different viewpoints. To keep things simple...
Developers. Can a feat fulfill it's own prerequisites, or is a feat only "active" if you can meet all prerequisites in the absence of itself? Or is there some other possibility that isn't elaborated upon here?
In order to get this answered, I'd ask folks to FAQ this post.
Except the only way for any near humanoid creature to GET said Constrict ability, is via the already mentioned class ability, or be the member of certain snakelike races (Naga, or Serpentfolk), and take the Final Embrace feat. Other than those methods, there are monster that have the constrict ability naturally, like oozes, shambling mounds, etc, and they aren't the type to be picking up feats or being reincarnated.
And a magic item.
And a magic item.
Okay, but that's not relevant, as you'd be particularly insane to allow a magic item to grant prerequisite for a feat.
And a magic item.Okay, but that's not relevant, as you'd be particularly insane to allow a magic item to grant prerequisite for a feat.
You're serious?
And a magic item.Okay, but that's not relevant, as you'd be particularly insane to allow a magic item to grant prerequisite for a feat.
I guess stat belts/headbands for meeting statistic pre-requisites fall under that sort of thing in your games, too?
Keep in mind that as long as they don't have the item equipped, they can't use the feat, and it just burns a hole in their feat list. It actually makes no sense to design your feat choices around one or two items...
And a magic item.Okay, but that's not relevant, as you'd be particularly insane to allow a magic item to grant prerequisite for a feat.I guess stat belts/headbands for meeting statistic pre-requisites fall under that sort of thing in your games, too?
Keep in mind that as long as they don't have the item equipped, they can't use the feat, and it just burns a hole in their feat list. It actually makes no sense to design your feat choices around one or two items...
Basically the only items I'll ever allow myself to use to qualify with are stat-based, as that's basically unavoidable.
Also RAW you could get constrict as a human by taking racial heritage(nagaji) then picking up the feat. A bit silly, honestly, but not a terrible idea for a non-tetori grappler, or as early-entrance constrict for a tetori.
And a magic item.Okay, but that's not relevant, as you'd be particularly insane to allow a magic item to grant prerequisite for a feat.
this is actually pretty common.
A dwarf with 13+ CON has the Ironhide feat. Three scenarios:
1. Dwarf gets permanent CON Drain so CON<13.
2. Dwarf gets killed and reincarnated as an Elf, but CON >13.
3. Dwarf gets killed and reincarnated as an Elf, but CON <13.
Can the character continue benefitting from the Ironhide feat in these three scenarios?
A dwarf with 13+ CON has the Ironhide feat. Three scenarios:
1. Dwarf gets permanent CON Drain so CON<13.
2. Dwarf gets killed and reincarnated as an Elf, but CON >13.
3. Dwarf gets killed and reincarnated as an Elf, but CON <13.Can the character continue benefitting from the Ironhide feat in these three scenarios?
No to all 3. He no longer meets the pre-reqs, and thus cannot benefit.
from a programming standpoint, entities are not self aware, so when you went to check if the strength feat didn't apply it's +2 bonus because without it you're below 13 str, you't have to remove the bonus, then check. It's more taxing on the system
also, in real life there are several self funding events that happen. so it's not impossible for something to fulfill it's own prereq from a conventional mode of thought either. as a basic example, and animal can only eat if it already has some energy to hunt or even stay alive to digest it. initially we gain it from our parents, but then we have to get that food to our mouths on our own.
in essence, it's not inherently preposterous.
It's no more taxing than checking feat prereqs when you're hit with an Antimagic Field or suppressed with Dispel Magic.
Self-Funding is not the same as bootstrapping a prerequisite. Neither is eating.
If a job requires relevant work experience, you cannot satisfy that job requirement by saying "If you hire me, then I'd have relevant work experience."
If a job requires relevant work experience, you cannot satisfy that job requirement by saying "If you hire me, then I'd have relevant work experience."
But if you needed 2 years experience and have worked at the job for two years+, do you need to check to see if you needed that two years of experience now? THAT'S the question.
Except the only way for any near humanoid creature to GET said Constrict ability, is via the already mentioned class ability, or be the member of certain snakelike races (Naga, or Serpentfolk), and take the Final Embrace feat. Other than those methods, there are monster that have the constrict ability naturally, like oozes, shambling mounds, etc, and they aren't the type to be picking up feats or being reincarnated.Okay. So we're obviously approaching things from different viewpoints. To keep things simple...
Developers. Can a feat fulfill it's own prerequisites, or is a feat only "active" if you can meet all prerequisites in the absence of itself? Or is there some other possibility that isn't elaborated upon here?
In order to get this answered, I'd ask folks to FAQ this post.
Don't forget to add a witch archetype that can strangle you with their hair.
But if you needed 2 years experience and have worked at the job for two years+, do you need to check to see if you needed that two years of experience now? THAT'S the question.
If a job requires relevant work experience, you cannot satisfy that job requirement by saying "If you hire me, then I'd have relevant work experience."
No, that's not the question now. While it's an apt analogy for demonstrating the initial problem with using the benefit to qualify (which is how I used it), it doesn't work for anything beyond that.
The rules are clear that if you lose the prerequisite for a feat, you lose the feat's benefit. It doesn't matter what the benefit is - you lose access to it. Why are we treating certain feats differently? You don't look to the benefit then determine if you're still eligible. It works the same for prestige classes - if you lose the prereqs, you lose the abilities that the prereqs give you access to. Analyze prereqs first.
Prerequisite - Must be employed at Stark Industries to access classified files.
Claim #1 - If you hire me, I'll work here. So you should give me access to the classified files. (This is bootstrapping a benefit to qualify for a prerequisite.)
Claim #2 - I used to work here before you downsized my position. So you should give me access to the classified files. (This is no longer satisfying a prerequisite because you've been reincarnated as a completely different race.)
In neither event should you be given access to classified files - you don't satisfy the necessary criteria.
Not quite the same scenario.
We're speaking of rare instances where a Feat may provide the benefit required to qualify for it.
To hijack your example, it's more like this:
Prerequisite: Must have access to Stark Industries classified files.
Benefit: You gain the ability to access the Stark Industries classified files to gain various benefits.
The access to the files is providing access to the files.
This is basically what Final Embrace does. It requires Constrict, but also grants Constrict.
Essentially, you now have two forms of access. Your original form of access may be denied, but the secondary form of access you gained when you initially gained access still grants you access.
Claim #1-2 are incorrect versions. Rynjin's example works though. I'll add my own 'claim' though.
Claim #3 Access to stark files requires a Stark Industries ID card. Now even though I was fired, I still have my Stark Industries ID card to access the files. The job gave me the card and they didn't take it when I left.
But the card no longer functions because you don't actually work there anymore...
And my examples aren't incorrect versions of anything. They're demonstrations of why the logic is faulty.
Final Embrace requires that you be one of two specific races or that you already have a constrict attack. If your access to the feat is due to being one of the two races, and you lose that, you no longer satisfy the prerequisite. It's the exact same thing we're talking about if you don't already have constrict because in that case your access is based upon race, not ability.
Even if you recognize that there is no specific, on-point rule citation, you have to recognize this is literally the exact same argument that was considered and rejected for the prestige class FAQ. It's bootstrapping, plain and simple. There is no way around that.
But the card no longer functions because you don't actually work there anymore...
That's the debate. We're in a chicken/egg situation. Think of it as a car. You need a battery to start it but once it's running you can remove it. Your character is 'running' when the battery(initial prerequisite) is pulled out.
There are self-sustaining systems in the real world so we can keep up a back and forth with these kind of examples but is it getting us anywhere? Not really. It'd be better to bring up any actual rules that are on point about feats and their prerequisites. Anything else is at best speculation.
As I see it all that is required to keep a feat is having the prerequisites and nothing says that those can't come from the feat itself. Restrictions like the retraining FAQ would have to be in place to prevent this from working with feats.
This is the exact situation behind the prestige FAQ. So what you're looking for is a FAQ saying that this is the exact situation behind the other FAQ and should work the same?
Is there any rules indication that this situation should work differently? The rules explicitly say you must satisfy prereqs to continue benefiting from the feat's benefits. The prestige class FAQ says you can't bootstrap an class's benefits to qualify for that class if you otherwise wouldn't qualify. So, unless and until we get an official response, is there anything to indicate that this situation is even moderately likely to be treated differently? What is the support for the counterargument, since we know analogous situations have been addressed in the past?
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The main difference that makes the two things not analogous is that the PrC ruling was based on a possible abuse of the Retraining rules.
There's quite a big difference between having a Feat that gives you the ability to qualify for it, and qualifying for something, and then "grandfathering yourself in" when you retrain the levels that let you qualify into the levels you previously qualified for.
One is using the keycard I have been given to access those Stark Industries files, even after employment has been terminated (because they didn't lock my card), the other is essentially going back in time to before you were employed, taking your access card with you, and assuming it will work (when the card wasn't created until you were employed, so would not be recognized).
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One is using the keycard I have been given to access those Stark Industries files, even after employment has been terminated (because they didn't lock my card)...
That's the crux of the debate: you think your card still grants you access after you have been fired; the other side acknowledges that once you're terminated, your card gets locked.
This is the exact situation behind the prestige FAQ. So what you're looking for is a FAQ saying that this is the exact situation behind the other FAQ and should work the same?
No, what YOU are looking for is a FAQ that says this doesn't work. If it didn't work by default, then there was no need for the prestige FAQ. My stance at least is that nothing stops this from working as is. You keep talking about a "bootstrap" because another FAQ about a different rule entirely said that THAT feature/ability didn't allow for something else to qualify for itself. That's nifty and all but has nothing to do about the RAW of this situation. Now you might have a point on intent, but I'm not talking about that.
HangarFlying: It's more that group #1 is saying nothing in the rules tells you that the card gets locked while group #2 is saying that then they left their social group their membership card was locked so of course a card from someplace else should be locked when they leave even though there is no evidence of it.
from a programming standpoint, entities are not self aware, so when you went to check if the strength feat didn't apply it's +2 bonus because without it you're below 13 str, you't have to remove the bonus, then check. It's more taxing on the system
also, in real life there are several self funding events that happen. so it's not impossible for something to fulfill it's own prereq from a conventional mode of thought either. as a basic example, and animal can only eat if it already has some energy to hunt or even stay alive to digest it. initially we gain it from our parents, but then we have to get that food to our mouths on our own.
in essence, it's not inherently preposterous.
It's no more taxing than checking feat prereqs when you're hit with an Antimagic Field or suppressed with Dispel Magic.
Self-Funding is not the same as bootstrapping a prerequisite. Neither is eating.
If a job requires relevant work experience, you cannot satisfy that job requirement by saying "If you hire me, then I'd have relevant work experience."
your argument preassumes something. which is why the taxing is important.
you must DO SOMETHING for the feat to no longer grant it's own prereq, as in simple numbers you still do have the prereq. you have to examine the case from the EXCEPTION not the NORM, that the feat cannot grant it's own prereq.
antimagic fields are not relevant to a feat granting it's own prereq, as the antimagic field just ends the effect, so irregardless of an item having a prereq or not, it still wouldn't work.
self funding is exactly what "bootstrapping" is, an object/event being able to fund it's own continued functionality is not inherently impossible if it creates events that further it's function. A hurricane draws air into the center giving itself more fresh air to work with.
also, the FAQ on prestige classes is irrelevant as we're not discussing prestige classes, plain and simple.
So I have but a few questions to pose to the party that claims you can use the feat to qualify for the feat to determine how they would run scenarios in comparison to the RAW presented in the book.
1. Say I was an 8th level Fighter who just took Greater Weapon Focus for his 8th level Bonus Feat. I fight a vampire and he level drains me 2 levels. What happens to the feat I just took for being 8th level?
2. Say I have 14 Strength and I take Power Attack. I'm fighting a shadow and it drains me of 3 Strength points. What happens to the Power Attack feat?
3. Say I am an Elf Monk with the Anaconda's Coils belt equipped, and I take the Final Embrace feat. An enemy spellcaster throws a Dispel Magic at my belt while I have him constricted. What happens to the Final Embrace feat?
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1. Say I was an 8th level Fighter who just took Greater Weapon Focus for his 8th level Bonus Feat. I fight a vampire and he level drains me 2 levels. What happens to the feat I just took for being 8th level?
Nothing. It'll do well to offset the negs you're taking.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
Pretty sure that it did nastier things in 3.5. Nastier things requiring you to keep track of every incremental character change, I think.
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2. Say I have 14 Strength and I take Power Attack. I'm fighting a shadow and it drains me of 3 Strength points. What happens to the Power Attack feat?
You lose access to it until you are no longer drained. Were you damaged, you would retain access to it.
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
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3. Say I am an Elf Monk with the Anaconda's Coils belt equipped, and I take the Final Embrace feat. An enemy spellcaster throws a Dispel Magic at my belt while I have him constricted. What happens to the Final Embrace feat?
You lose access to it until the belt's no longer suppressed. Unless you're a level 15 Tetori Monk, or have some other means of qualifying for the feat. Besides itself.
At this point, the arguments are on the table and don't seem to be developing further. Maybe we should FAQ and move on.
The work experience works better like this:
Position requires 2 years work experience.
Applicant 1: 'If I work for 2 years with you, i'll have the experience, so you should hire me!'
This clearly does not work and is an analogy for trying to take a feat to get the prereqs for that feat.
Applicant 2: 'I have been working here for 2 years but you put me up for rehire. Thus, I have the required 2 years work experience from working this job for 2 years already'.
This clearly works and is a better analogy for maintaining a feat once it gives a prereq. You can use the job itself, if you already have it, to qualify for its continuation.
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So I have but a few questions to pose to the party that claims you can use the feat to qualify for the feat to determine how they would run scenarios in comparison to the RAW presented in the book.
1. Say I was an 8th level Fighter who just took Greater Weapon Focus for his 8th level Bonus Feat. I fight a vampire and he level drains me 2 levels. What happens to the feat I just took for being 8th level?
Point of order: when you receive negative levels, you don't actually lose any levels. Nor do you lose any access to class features that are predicated upon that level. Feats that have a class level as a prerequisite are not lost and are still accessible because the prerequisite is still met.
This is the exact situation behind the prestige FAQ. So what you're looking for is a FAQ saying that this is the exact situation behind the other FAQ and should work the same?No, what YOU are looking for is a FAQ that says this doesn't work. If it didn't work by default, then there was no need for the prestige FAQ. My stance at least is that nothing stops this from working as is. You keep talking about a "bootstrap" because another FAQ about a different rule entirely said that THAT feature/ability didn't allow for something else to qualify for itself. That's nifty and all but has nothing to do about the RAW of this situation. Now you might have a point on intent, but I'm not talking about that.
HangarFlying: It's more that group #1 is saying nothing in the rules tells you that the card gets locked while group #2 is saying that then they left their social group their membership card was locked so of course a card from someplace else should be locked when they leave even though there is no evidence of it.
No, I'm not looking for a FAQ to say it doesn't work. A FAQ clarifying that the prestige classes cannot satisfy their own prerequisites does not mean that prior to the FAQ prestige classes were able to satisfy their own prerequisites.
At best for your position, RAW in this situation is silent. At best. Indications are there in related matters. Hence my question, where is the support for the counterargument?
from a programming standpoint, entities are not self aware, so when you went to check if the strength feat didn't apply it's +2 bonus because without it you're below 13 str, you't have to remove the bonus, then check. It's more taxing on the system
also, in real life there are several self funding events that happen. so it's not impossible for something to fulfill it's own prereq from a conventional mode of thought either. as a basic example, and animal can only eat if it already has some energy to hunt or even stay alive to digest it. initially we gain it from our parents, but then we have to get that food to our mouths on our own.
in essence, it's not inherently preposterous.
It's no more taxing than checking feat prereqs when you're hit with an Antimagic Field or suppressed with Dispel Magic.
Self-Funding is not the same as bootstrapping a prerequisite. Neither is eating.
If a job requires relevant work experience, you cannot satisfy that job requirement by saying "If you hire me, then I'd have relevant work experience."
your argument preassumes something. which is why the taxing is important.
you must DO SOMETHING for the feat to no longer grant it's own prereq, as in simple numbers you still do have the prereq. you have to examine the case from the EXCEPTION not the NORM, that the feat cannot grant it's own prereq.
antimagic fields are not relevant to a feat granting it's own prereq, as the antimagic field just ends the effect, so irregardless of an item having a prereq or not, it still wouldn't work.
self funding is exactly what "bootstrapping" is, an object/event being able to fund it's own continued functionality is not inherently impossible if it creates events that further it's function. A hurricane draws air into the center giving itself more fresh air to work with.
also, the FAQ on prestige classes is irrelevant as we're not discussing prestige classes, plain and simple.
I'm not addressing antimagic fields as being relevant to feats providing their own prerequisites; I'm discussing antimagic fields as being relevant to contradict your claim that having to determine when prerequisites are satisfied is too complicated and taxing on the system.
How is walking into an antimagic field which causes you to lose STR so now you don't qualify for Power Attack any less complicated than you taking STR Drain and no longer qualifying for Power Attack? And how is that less complicated for the system than the situation presented by this made up feat that caused this line of discourse? Something happens to impact your ability scores, which provide you access to certain feats. When that something happens, you have to determine whether you still qualify to use the benefits provided by the feats. This is straight out of the rule books. The situation is no different and no more difficult in one instance than another.
Self-funding isn't the same thing as bootstrapping a prerequisite. A more apt analogy would be a matching fund proposal. You do not get access to the funds until you have raised sufficient funds on your own. Sure, you could have a whole pot full of money available to you, so long as you raise enough money to trigger your access to the matching funding. But you cannot rely on the matching funding amount until you hit the threshold number.
Sure, you could use the matching funds provided from last year to help establish the amount you'll collect this year, but you still have to meet the established requirement in order to receive this year's matching funds.
Self-funding also doesn't create the same prerequisite issue. So again, not relevant. Hurricane's have a lot of fresh air available to draw in to perpetuate itself. Again, the same prerequisite issue is not present.
I'm still waiting for someone to provide some actual rules language that says the benefit of a feat can satisfy the prerequisite for that same feat.
The work experience works better like this:
Position requires 2 years work experience.
Applicant 1: 'If I work for 2 years with you, i'll have the experience, so you should hire me!'
This clearly does not work and is an analogy for trying to take a feat to get the prereqs for that feat.
Applicant 2: 'I have been working here for 2 years but you put me up for rehire. Thus, I have the required 2 years work experience from working this job for 2 years already'.
This clearly works and is a better analogy for maintaining a feat once it gives a prereq. You can use the job itself, if you already have it, to qualify for its continuation.
But the job experience example was never really intended to address continued functioning of a feat because the situations are not analogous.
You cannot lose work experience. You can, however, lose prerequisites for a feat. This is explicitly stated in the rules. And if you lose those prerequisites, you no longer get to benefit from the feat.
The real argument here that people on both sides are having seems to be an order of operations issue.
A.) One side starts at all times assuming that a character is built from the ground up from moment to moment. i.e. Feats can't qualify for themselves, because you don't have it applied until you qualify via other means.
B.) The other side assumes that you take a character in its current state when checking for legality. So if you legally took a feat by meeting its prerequisites AND the feat happens to supply that prerequisite, if you lose the first reason that you were able to take the feat it's okay, because the feat won't go away until you no longer qualify. Which is impossible because it supplies what you need.
Both points of view have merit. I would guess that the devs would rule more toward side A, because it is the more conservative view. And it doesn't require memory when checking if a character is legal. (Did you ever qualify for this independently? When?)
In a home game I would without question allow B.
It really all just comes down to when/how you check the state.
"Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat...A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite."
"Benefit: You gain the constrict and grab special attacks."
Once you gain something, you have it. If you have it, you get the benefit of the feat that requires it. It's all written out in the rules. If you cease to have a constrict special attack, you cease to gain the benefits of the feat. If you still have the attack, you still benefit from the feat.
It's the same argument. If what gives you the constrict attack is the feat, how can you still have access to the constrict attack if you no longer qualify for the feat?
I'm still waiting for someone to provide some actual rules language that says the benefit of a feat can satisfy the prerequisite for that same feat.
I'm waiting for some evidence that it cannot.
by more taxing, I mean, the base state is to check without modifications. To check the feat's prereqs without it's own modifiers is more taxing than checking it with the feats modifier's still in play, and thus is not the norm or base assumption. I am not saying it's too taxing for a player to deal with.
so back to hurricane
a hurricane needs warm water to form, warm enough that it evaporates quickly. The hurricane itself then blocks the sun the initial triggering event for the hurricane. after that the hurricane creates it's own air intake and does not use the one initially provided for it.
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to make this simpler,
if i was to program it like fretgod wanted, every round prior to the character's rounds taking place, i would have to:
step 1: read/process what the feat does
step 2: remove the feat and it's effects from the character sheet (which might be several steps on it's own)
step 3: recalculate the ENTIRE BUILD to make sure other sources aren't supporting the prereq.
step 4: process if the feat's prereqs are met.
this has n squared resource hogging.
this would happen EVERY ROUND for EVERY FEAT.
by making it able to fulfill it's own needs I could as a programmer have any relevant stat changes simply report when they change to any linked feats, and then check. As many requirements are Boolean (such as having a constrict attack or not) this only works if the feats can supply their own requirements.
this has log of n resource hogging, or possibly "0"
resource hogging.
THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BY MORE TAXING.
to make this simpler,
if i was to program it like fretgod wanted, every round prior to the character's rounds taking place, i would have to:
step 1: read/process what the feat does
step 2: remove the feat and it's effects from the character sheet (which might be several steps on it's own)
step 3: recalculate the ENTIRE BUILD to make sure other sources aren't supporting the prereq.
step 4: process if the feat's prereqs are met.this has n squared resource hogging.
this would happen EVERY ROUND for EVERY FEAT.
by making it able to fulfill it's own needs I could as a programmer have any relevant stat changes simply report when they change to any linked feats, and then check. As many requirements are Boolean (such as having a constrict attack or not) this only works if the feats can supply their own requirements.
this has log of n resource hogging, or possibly "0"
resource hogging.
THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BY MORE TAXING.
Are you a computer program? Are you incapable of going "Oh, wow, I got strength drained, I should check my feats to make sure I still qualify" and thus need to check all your feats at the start of every round? Do you have issues with checking feat prerequisites and seeing if you meet them without the feat's benefits?
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to make this simpler,
if i was to program it like fretgod wanted, every round prior to the character's rounds taking place, i would have to:
step 1: read/process what the feat does
step 2: remove the feat and it's effects from the character sheet (which might be several steps on it's own)
step 3: recalculate the ENTIRE BUILD to make sure other sources aren't supporting the prereq.
step 4: process if the feat's prereqs are met.this has n squared resource hogging.
this would happen EVERY ROUND for EVERY FEAT.
by making it able to fulfill it's own needs I could as a programmer have any relevant stat changes simply report when they change to any linked feats, and then check. As many requirements are Boolean (such as having a constrict attack or not) this only works if the feats can supply their own requirements.
this has log of n resource hogging, or possibly "0"
resource hogging.
THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BY MORE TAXING.
I don't really know what you're talking about. If for some reason your STR drops below 13, you don't delete Power Attack from your character sheet. You just can't access the feat because you don't have the prerequisites to use the feat. Once your STR is returned to its original score (or is at least increased to 13 or higher), then you can use Power Attack again. Not sure what the problem is.
Regarding the original feat in question (heck, I don't even remember what it's called anymore), if you lose your [human] subtype, you can't access the feat anymore. The text contained within the feat is irrelevant because it is inaccessible...because you no longer qualify—the text is grayed out, unreadable, incommunicado, no-touchy.
Saying that the feat you no longer qualify for can be used as a prerequisite to that feat you no longer qualify for is like dividing by zero.
*sigh* why didn't I expect something I thought was really clear for me would be misunderstood by everyone else.
a computer doesn't recognize how things interact, you have to manually check them all. Organic brains are great at understanding and processing patterns and thus can get through this no problem, but from a straight forwarded how do you calculate when you lose a feat, it's really complicated as a step by step process.
Regarding the original feat in question (heck, I don't even remember what it's called anymore), if you lose your [human] subtype, you can't access the feat anymore. The text contained within the feat is irrelevant because it is inaccessible...because you no longer qualify—the text is grayed out, unreadable, incommunicado, no-touchy.
except the feat provides it's own prereq, and thus never gets locked out. which is why I bring up order of operations, as you NEED to know the fine details of how to process when you lose a feat's prereq, as it is easily understandable for something to supply it's own activation. and the system fretgod prepossess is more straining to a computer or any methodological approach.
also, ironically diving by zero with computer doesn't crash the computer, it causes the computer to hang and keep processing that request forever. so, it's ironically correct. (when a computer divides it does complicated binary math, but in essence a divide by 0 causes no change to occur each step, and so the computer never reaches an exit condition). Operating systems actually catch divide by zero errors and then flush the memory, which is what causes a computer to crash.
a computer doesn't recognize how things interact, you have to manually check them all. Organic brains are great at understanding and processing patterns and thus can get through this no problem, but from a straight forwarded how do you calculate when you lose a feat, it's really complicated as a step by step process.
This is both correct and irrelevant, unless one of us is actually a sophisticated AI system, in which case I imagine it's still irrelevant as an AI would likely be designed to excel at pattern recognition.
The real crux of the issue is this.
Can a feat provide you with a prerequisite for itself? Some people say yes. Some people say no. That's why you should FAQ... and stop arguing in circles.
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HangarFlying, your very last sentence is doing exactly what I commented on: you are assuming that you no longer qualify for the feat, and basing the rest of your argument off of that. If you have everything that the feat requires under "Prerequisites," no matter how you got those things, then you do qualify for the feat.
Okay, it seems like we all might want to cool it with the analogies and just FAQ the post like Bronnwynn is saying.
Right, and if your race changes to something other than human due to a resurrection, you no longer meet the prerequisites of whatever this feat is called that requires you to be a human to get the feat.
a computer doesn't recognize how things interact, you have to manually check them all. Organic brains are great at understanding and processing patterns and thus can get through this no problem, but from a straight forwarded how do you calculate when you lose a feat, it's really complicated as a step by step process.This is both correct and irrelevant, unless one of us is actually a sophisticated AI system, in which case I imagine it's still irrelevant as an AI would likely be designed to excel at pattern recognition.
The real crux of the issue is this.
Can a feat provide you with a prerequisite for itself? Some people say yes. Some people say no. That's why you should FAQ... and stop arguing in circles.
1. already FAQ'd
2. it's fun in the meantime3. I doubt we'll actually get a FAQ to go through.