Reincarnate and feats / favored class bonuses.


Rules Questions

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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The very definition of a prerequisite implies that it is checked BEFORE the benefit is applied.

Quote:

pre·req·ui·site

noun
1. a thing that is required as a prior condition for something else to happen or exist.

and that benefit was applied ages ago is the point, the benefit never stopped, thus there is no reason for application to be revoked pre-maturely. this fact has yet to be reconciled.


You need to have a prerequisite BEFORE you get a feat in the first place.

Once you have a feat, you need to lose the prerequisite BEFORE you can lose the benefit.

Considering prerequisites always comes BEFORE any changes occur.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The very definition of a prerequisite implies that it is checked BEFORE the benefit is applied.

Quote:

pre·req·ui·site

noun
1. a thing that is required as a prior condition for something else to happen or exist.

No.

You are taking something away, that one already has, to determine if one has what is needed.

That is not covered.

You are still following the idea of gaining a feat.


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The main problem here is that the feat is badly written.

It often happens that verbiage gets cut to reduce word count, and something that would have clarified things gets left out.

I don't think the intent of the feat was to classify a character as human. The character already was human when he got the feat. I believe that the feat was worded that way to keep clear the fact that you keep the "human" classification even though you have also gained another classification.

Imagine if you had a feat that required you to be human and the effect of the feat was that you count as human?

Personally as a GM I would tell the player that the feat wouldn't be valid, but since reincarnate is pretty wonky already I would say that he can retrain anything that he doesn't qualify for any more.


That's the big issue here. People are trying to handle this like a RAW issue, and with reincarnate, RAW doesn't work. You have to use GM Fiat to handle the situation, because no two reincarnations are the same. All will have some complications, and most will result in significant alterations to the character. This is why it is the lowest level way to come back from death, and this is why it is banned from PFS. All you can actually get as a result of this thread is a 'this is how I would rule it as GM', you are never going to get a true 'this is how it is, period.'


_Ozy_ wrote:
blahpers wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Hmm, what about two feats that satisfy each other, but without both feats you would qualify for neither?
This exact question, but with prestige class levels instead of feats, is what caused the design team to revise the retraining FAQ to completely disallow retraining base class levels into prestige class levels regardless of requirements. So far, this thread has played out exactly like that (with the addition of blackbloodtroll's insistence that no, this is totally different).

If you're talking about this rule:

Quote:
Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
It certainly does seem different to me. If Feat A satisfied the prereq for Feat B, and vice-versa, then how would these feats deactivate?

Not that ruling. Read the ruling after that.

Quote:
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.

Someone (possibly I, now that I think of it) brought up using two prestige classes to qualify for each other via retraining. The deva threw up their hands and invoked the "nuclear option" by simply disallowing retraining base class levels into prestige class levels. Let's just say that I'd rather they didn't have to explore the analogous case for feats.


CraziFuzzy wrote:

That's the big issue here. People are trying to handle this like a RAW issue, and with reincarnate, RAW doesn't work. You have to use GM Fiat to handle the situation, because no two reincarnations are the same. All will have some complications, and most will result in significant alterations to the character. This is why it is the lowest level way to come back from death, and this is why it is banned from PFS. All you can actually get as a result of this thread is a 'this is how I would rule it as GM', you are never going to get a true 'this is how it is, period.'

There are worse problems with reincarnate, like the stat table existing at all. It makes no sense in the context of races that choose their ability score bonus.

We just play it as unapplying the current race's ability score modifiers and applying the new ones, with the caveat that if both have a choice, the choice must be the same.


blahpers wrote:

Not that ruling. Read the ruling after that.

Quote:
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.
Someone (possibly I, now that I think of it) brought up using two prestige classes to qualify for each other via retraining. The deva threw up their hands and invoked the "nuclear option" by simply disallowing retraining base class levels into prestige class levels. Let's just say that I'd rather they didn't have to explore the analogous case for feats.

Um yeah, that's why I indicated the base warrior class was being retrained into a base cleric class, not a prestige class.

You have warrior (6) + prestige 1 (6) + prestige 2 (6)

and retrain it to cleric (6) + prestige 1 (6) + prestige 2 (6)

where prestige 1 and 2 count as warrior levels that satisfy each other's prereqs. Maybe a bit of an odd corner case, but is relevant to whether they can 'support' each other even if you wouldn't be able to build it this way from level 1.


I'm not sure what distinction you're attempting to craft here, but the original argument was about prestige class requirements in general. This included requirements like "BAB +5" or "5 ranks of Stealth". For example, were it not for the FAQ, you could easily retrain any base class levels into a prestige class, leaving you as a, e.g., a Horizon Walker 10. When they patched that with the ruling you mentioned, the idea of retraining such that you had only levels in two prestige classes that qualified for each other was pointed out. So they nuked retraining base into prestige completely rather than attempt to explain cyclic graphs in a FAQ.


I thought the distinction was pretty clear, but it's really not worth a drawn out discussion because it's only tangential to the feat issue at hand.


Tangential. Yeah. : D

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