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I was really excited to see Paizo's take on psychic magic, but I'm disappointed with the current implementation. It just feels rather... stilted, like they tried to cram the 3.5 PP system into the Vancian Magic system, and the result is not pretty.
While I love the PP system, Dreamscarred Press has cornered that market, so I see why Paizo didn't go that route. However, psychic magic feels like it's fighting against itself in it's current state, and I think this is because it's trying to be too many different things at once. Instead of being tied down to the past, I want to focus on ways we could make Psychic Magic into something new, cool, and distinctly Pathfinder.
Undercasting feels like it's trying to fill the same role that Augmentation did for PP, but since you can't split a higher level spell slot into multiple lower ones there's no reason to undercast a spell when you have higher level slots available unless you KNOW you're fighting a weaker foe. Against true threats, there's no reason to even consider not using your highest tier spell, since the high-level ones are always straight upgrades.
Compare this to say, Burning Hands v.s. Scorching Ray v.s. Fireball, which not only have varying damage but also have varying utility; which one you want to use can be heavily influenced by how enemies are positioned. With undercast spells, this isn't the case; the next level is always just a better version.
One possibility I think it would work better is if instead of having spells that just get bigger numbers as they level, these new occult classes learned ways to 'twist' their spells to better suit their needs. You could never quite know what to expect when fighting an occult caster; this would help add to that eerie, strange feeling that the occult is supposed to give. I think the Alchemist Admixtures are a good example of this; the Alchemist is still throwing bombs, but the exact effect it has been shifted to produce strange results.
Another option would be to use a system like Monk Ki or the Magus Arcana Pool for enhancing these spells. If instead of having Ego Whip I, Ego Whip II, Ego Whip III, etc., the Psychic just had Ego Whip with the ability to boost their spells up to higher strength by spending Ki or some similar resource, you would get the benefits of having multiple power levels without the weird dissonance that undercasting produces in a Vancian magic system. Players are also already familar with this kind of system, which is another bonus. It also opens the door for more possibilities like this in the future... I don't know about you, but I would totally play a Ki-based full caster.
The way I see it undercasting doesn't give psychic casters two or three spells for the price of one at all. They get one spell with a slightly modified power level. If twisting could be considered just another form of metamagic, then what is undercasting but another form of Empower Spell?
That system adds complexity without doing stuff we can't already do, so if we're going to add complexity why not at least make it different? Alternatively we could just remove undercasting entirely and give psychic casters a couple new spells like a true Vancian caster should. I would be happier with than than the current system.
As far as the Occult to 3.5 comparisons, those are going to continue to happen because the Occult Magic DOES have a relations to 3.5 Psionics. Ego Whip? Mind Thrust? Intellect Fortress? Those are all 3.5 Psionic Powers. They essentially do the same things that they did in 3.5, so of course they are going to be compared.
Undercasting, for psionics, is basically a way to extend their spells known a little farther. It makes it much more advantageous for them to take the new psychic-specific spells, since they get, more or less, two or three spells for the price of one.
yep, Undercasting is awesome. I'd love to see it for arcane and divine spells like summon monster/natures allies, cure wounds, ect.
It's not apples to oranges, it's apple cobbler to apple pie. I can't tell you the pie is a cobbler, but I can say that given some apples, I think we should make a cobbler instead of a pie.
I wish that undercasting was like Summon Monster, because at least with Summon Monster you get choices. Do I summon a Giant Frog or a Small Elemental... or take a gamble and hope for 3 Dogs? With undercasting there are no choices. I don't like Cure X Wounds because it has the same problem as undercasting, but at least that's only a single line of spells and not an entire magic system.
Wait, wait, wait...
I'm confused.
Some psychic spells can be undercast. This means that the spellcaster can cast the spell at the level that he knows, or as any lower level version of that spell, using the appropriate spell slot. When undercasting a spell, it is treated exactly like the lower level version, including when determining its effect, saving throw, and other variables. For example, a psychic spellcaster who adds ego whip III to his list of spells known can cast it as ego whip I, II, or III. If he casts it as ego whip I, it is treated in all ways as that spell; using the text for that spell, the saving throw DC, and requiring him to expend a 3rd-level spell slot.
Has this discrepancy already been addressed elsewhere? Does an ego whip I actually use a 1st-level spell slot when cast?
Ego Whip I is a 3rd-level spell.
So a caster with Ego Whip III (a 5th level spell) can cast it as Ego Whip II with a 4th-level slot or Ego Whip I with a third-level slot.
...and now I am officially embarrassed.
Thank you for pointing that out, I can't believe I assumed ego whip I was a 1st-level spell... -_-
Okay, so undercasting is pretty sweet.
There's nothing to suggest that we can't combine metamagic and undercasting, is that correct? I imagine that a 10th-level psychic, whose highest level slots are fiftth level, could undercast ego whip III down to ego whip I (which let's assume she doesn't know) for a 3rd-level slot, but then metamagic it back up to fifth level with, say, Persistent Spell?
I'm really hoping it stays confined to the Psychic-specific spells, because it's an interesting little niche...
Agreed. The playtest community has already acknowledged that the psychic needs as much uniqueness as it can get. Besides, undercasting only works with spontaneous spellcasters, so introducing it to spells accessible to prepared casters creates a weird inconsistency that just doesn't need to happen.
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Undercasting feels like it's trying to fill the same role that Augmentation did for PP, but since you can't split a higher level spell slot into multiple lower ones there's no reason to undercast a spell when you have higher level slots available unless you KNOW you're fighting a weaker foe. Against true threats, there's no reason to even consider not using your highest tier spell, since the high-level ones are always straight upgrades.
I disagree with this - undercasting a high level psychic spell is no different than choosing not to augment a given psionic power. Mathematically they are identical. But I like the mechanic because, sometimes you don't need Dominate Monster when Dominate Person will do, and this way you are not punished for having both of the the way a Sorcerer would be.
I take that back - one big difference for the Psychic method is that high-level Psychic spells are actually heightened, unlike augmented psionic powers. This allows them to defeat effects like Globe of Invulnerability, something that always bothered me about psionics. Furthermore, Psychic Magic doesn't require a brand new set of items, metamagic feats, and prestige classes (though it does need a handful of the latter.) Therefore, in several ways, Psychic Magic is actually better than psionics.
Once Psychics get a summon line (I don't know whether they will - or even should - get the same Summon Monster/Nature's Ally as other casters, but they should get something) and other scalable spells like healing and charms, we will truly see the benefits of undercasting.
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(I don't know whether they will - or even should - get the same Summon Monster/Nature's Ally as other casters, but they should get something)
Personally, I think they should get a summon list that includes the space-creatures (Formians, Oma, etc) and such from Beastiary 4. Aberrations and undead, as well. Lots of them.
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Um... The Psychic can swap out spells at certain levels. 4th and every even numbered level thereafter.
Just swap out Id insinuation 1 for some other spell of the same level, pick up Id Insinuation 2, and boom! You basically now have 1 extra spell known.
How is that a bad thing?
Edit: Though, to be fair, I have noticed that a lot of people overlook the "swap out" parts of a class. Fighter feats, spells known, (I have a vague sense of some other thing I can't recall)... I suppose it's because most are happy with their choices via theorycraft.
Edit 2: okay, I'm silly. Forgot that via Undercasting rules themselves, if you learn a higher level version, you swap out the lower versions of the spell for other spells of their level anyways. Was talking about doing it off the Psychic itself.
Seriously though. Even skipping Ego Whip 1, 2, and 3, picking up 4 gives you, in effect, 4 spells known. Someone tell me how that is NOT a good thing?
Seriously though. Even skipping Ego Whip 1, 2, and 3, picking up 4 gives you, in effect, 4 spells known. Someone tell me how that is NOT a good thing?
Why would I want all of those lesser effects that I could potentially use in place of my 6th level spell KNOWN when I could do the same thing with a level 3 spell KNOWN that did the same thing but scaled up instead of down? Would it be broken for the spell to scale up when cast at a higher spell slot?
My opinion is it would not, or at least not any more than Arcane/Divine spells that scale up their effects with caster level. Maybe less so since the actual spell known would eat up the higher level slot for the day if cast in that way.
Basically it's an argument of "I want this spell that is versatile to cast but eats up a higher level spell that I can know" vs "I want this spell that is versatile to cast but eats up a higher level spell I can cast for the day".
I feel the second one is more useful and fits with the thematic idea of a Psychic Character more than the other.
The problem, I think, is that Heighten Spell metamagic already covers that and they don't want to override that with a class ability. Among other things.
The problem, I think, is that Heighten Spell metamagic already covers that and they don't want to override that with a class ability. Among other things.
Seriously though. Even skipping Ego Whip 1, 2, and 3, picking up 4 gives you, in effect, 4 spells known. Someone tell me how that is NOT a good thing?
Why would I want all of those lesser effects that I could potentially use in place of my 6th level spell KNOWN when I could do the same thing with a level 3 spell KNOWN that did the same thing but scaled up instead of down? Would it be broken for the spell to scale up when cast at a higher spell slot?
My opinion is it would not, or at least not any more than Arcane/Divine spells that scale up their effects with caster level. Maybe less so since the actual spell known would eat up the higher level slot for the day if cast in that way.
Basically it's an argument of "I want this spell that is versatile to cast but eats up a higher level spell that I can know" vs "I want this spell that is versatile to cast but eats up a higher level spell I can cast for the day".
I feel the second one is more useful and fits with the thematic idea of a Psychic Character more than the other.
I think he means for it to work like this:
Psychic Susie is leveling from Psychic 5 to Psychic 6, gaining 1 0-level spell known and 1 3rd-level spell known. She already knows mind thrust I as a 1st-level spell, so she could overcast it as mind thrust II or mind thrust III using the appropriate 2nd or 3rd level spell slot. She decides to devote her one 3rd-level spell known to dispel magic. She then realizes she could train out one of her 1st or 2nd-level spells known for another equivalent level spell, and might decide to trade out something other thant mind thrust I since she still wants to be able to overcast it.
Instead, it currently works like this (from my understanding):
Psychic Susie is leveling from Psychic 5 to Psychic 6, gaining 1 0-level spell known and 1 3rd-level spell known. She already knows mind thrust I as a 1st-level spell. She wants to be better at mind thrust, so she decides to learn mind thrust III as her 3rd level spell known. Since it can be undercast as either mind thrust I or mind thrust II, she uses her even level trade to trade mind thrust I for detect thoughts.
It was my understanding that Psycic Susie wouldn't need to use her even-level trade to swap out mind thrust I. She gets the swap for free when she learns mind thrust III in *addition* to her regular even-level swap. Is that not the case?
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You are correct Mikael - You do lose the "underspell" for free and can immediately pick something else of equal level to replace it. This is in addition to your "every 4 levels swap."
Here is the relevant quote:
"Whenever a spontaneous spellcaster adds a spell to his list of spells known that can be undercast, he can immediately learn a spell in place of any lower level versions of that spell. In essence he “loses” the earlier version and can replace it with another spell of the same level that is on his spell list."
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You are correct Mikael - You do lose the "underspell" for free and can immediately pick something else of equal level to replace it. This is in addition to your "every 4 levels swap."
Here is the relevant quote:
"Whenever a spontaneous spellcaster adds a spell to his list of spells known that can be undercast, he can immediately learn a spell in place of any lower level versions of that spell. In essence he “loses” the earlier version and can replace it with another spell of the same level that is on his spell list."
yep, which is why I don't understand the 'undercasting sucks' comments. I'd love other spells like cure wounds and summon spells to work like this.
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yep, which is why I don't understand the 'undercasting sucks' comments. I'd love other spells like cure wounds and summon spells to work like this.You are correct Mikael - You do lose the "underspell" for free and can immediately pick something else of equal level to replace it. This is in addition to your "every 4 levels swap."
Here is the relevant quote:
"Whenever a spontaneous spellcaster adds a spell to his list of spells known that can be undercast, he can immediately learn a spell in place of any lower level versions of that spell. In essence he “loses” the earlier version and can replace it with another spell of the same level that is on his spell list."
Exactly. I'd kill to see spells with Lesser-Standard-Greater work like this as well. A mechanic I'm going to have to yoink and house-rule so that it works like that now at my games. Already been doing it with Summon Monster lists (it makes no sense to me that you can summon 1d4+1 succubi for a party, but not a fiendish crab to retrieve your keys from the lake), and it's worked out pretty well.
Besides... "Overcasting" to me sounds more like casting past your abilities. Holding back the power is a lot easier and thematic to spells, IMO, than something that sounds like you're casting a 9th level spell when you should be limited to 5th.
Then again, I may be biased in that regard since that's a mechanic I've been tooling around with for the past couple years.
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Okay, I see what you're going on about. It's not so much the Undercasting mechanics, as the fact that the psychic spells as written don't have scaling effects with level and you've gotta use the higher version.
Valid concern. Still, a problem with the spells, not the mechanic itself.
Edit: Besides, technically, there's no REAL mechanical difference between Undercasting and Heightening the spell as you want it to be. You're still using higher level effects in higher level slots with one, and lower level effects in lower level slots with the other.
Only problem is the "using a higher spell known"... Which, really, is still trumped by the fact that "using a lower spell known" still eats up a slot you'd use to cast said higher spell.
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i don't think the OP is trying to say 'undercasting sucks' - just that it has interesting or wonky implications for being situated within a vancian casting system. hence the thread's title. the position the OP appears to take is neither black or white.
Augmentation mechanics, by simple extension of syntax, can be referred to as Overcasting - similarly Undercasting can be thought of as a series of free spell-specific Submagic feats.
Up or down, i feel Undercasting is an unconscious admission that maybe the vancian spell system could use a Chain or Tree or Variable Slot feature - something that would allow Summon Monster or Cure to occupy any spell slot available to it's caster. To this effect, it's a nod to 5E.
To me, it looks like a shoehorn.
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I shouldn't be Mind Thrusting or Ego Whipping with a level 6 spell.
This appears to be the centerpiece of your argument, but I haven't really seen any reason to accept it. Why shouldn't you need to use a 6th level spell known slot to get access to 6th level spell effects?
I shouldn't be Mind Thrusting or Ego Whipping with a level 6 spell.This appears to be the centerpiece of your argument, but I haven't really seen any reason to accept it. Why shouldn't you need to use a 6th level spell known slot to get access to 6th level spell effects?
Not to mention some of the Psychic Spells have some pretty harsh effects. Confusion for Concentration + 1 round? Charisma damage (no matter what) on a creature that uses Charisma as it's casting stat? Immediate action middle finger against mental invasions?
When you consider their higher level effects; adding another target and choosing their confusion rolls; buffing charisma damage and staggering for more than 1 round; eventually hurting the potential mental invader. These things sound right up the alley for arcane or divine spells of equivalent level.
Edit: Seems to me it's a power-gaming state of mind that desires the "Overcasting" mechanic. Just a gut feeling, and I'm sticking to it. (Plus, my experience by watching these boards tends to back me up that the general consensus for about half the population, give or take, revolves around squeezing out more DPR for less effort).
Edit 2: Actually, no, that argument is no argument. "Shouldn't be using a 6th level spell known to get a 6th level effect". That's just out and out wrong from game design and balance. Seriously. Using a 1st level spell known to get 6th level equivalent effects, for example? That's cheese to the highest degree.
Having a higher level spell known give you access to casting the lower level versions, that's ALMOST cheesy enough right there. Freaking thing about it. I'll use Psychic Crush for example .
PC 1: Reduce the target to -1HP and dying condition. If they succeed the will save, they take 3d6 +1/CL points of damage. +4 circumstance bonus if more than half it's HP is remaining. 5th level spell.
PC 2: As above, but 5d6 + 1/CL damage if successfull save, and they only get the +4 bonus if they have FULL HP, and only +2 if more than half but less than full. 6th level spell.
PC 3: As PC1, but 7d6 + 1/CL, +2 save bonus only at full HP. 7th level spell.
PC 4: As PC1, 9d6 + 1/CL on save, no save bonus, -2 on their save if less than half hp. 8th level spell.
PC 5: As PC1, 11d6 + 1/CL on save, no save bonus, -4 save penalty if less than half hp. 9th level spell.
Effectively, this spell is a SoD, and even if they succeed, you're doing some decent damage. If you've pumped your DCs for Mind-affecting necromancy, then with Psychic Crush 5, you can cast all day and they'll fail eventually. Bam, taken the hell out of the fight. Start with the smaller levels if you want to.
Now, take this as the inverse... You're using a 5th level spell known... To drop them to -1 and dying on a failed save taking vast majority of things out of the fight, applying a -4 penalty if they're less than half, and if they fail, you're doing 11d6 + CL damage.
Something don't smell right.
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While I may not necessarily want to cast mind thrust X with a high level spell slot, I find it more valuable to have more spells known for the lower levels that I would have otherwise populated with earlier mind thrusts if undercasting didn't exist.
Undercasting gives players an interesting set of options, expands the versatility of a spontaneous caster, and provides the psychic with sorely needed uniqueness.
Besides, undercasting takes up very little word count. While there may be disagreement about its implementation, I don't think anyone is advocating getting rid of it entirely...are they?
And, really.... Why are we wanting the Psychic to be a blaster when we've got the Kineticist that covers that? Psychics to me should be more about crowd control, some reality warping (keyword: some, not quite WISH level), and so on.
When I think Psychic (as a whole of the term), I think more Mentok the Mind Taker, Brother Blood, and so on. That got more shoehorned into Mesmerist, really, but still. Psychic, to me anyways, comes with the primary factor being "mental". Mental battles, battles of wills, screwing the opponent's mind over. Make the orc chieftan think they're a five year old girl and have your assistant braid their hair. But then, that's more a complaint over the class itself than the spells.
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I disagree - Psychic should have access to something besides mental manipulation. See, we already have the Witch for "9th-level caster that is focused around messing with the enemy's head and suffers against enemies where that isn't an option." We don't need another one.
The witch in fact has a secondary option for when they are up against mindless creatures and the like - namely, summoning, and some control spells. The Psychic needs secondary options like this as well. If not summoning - something I think they should NOT be good at, because psychic magic is about relying on the power within yourself - then they need blasting instead, or perhaps shapeshifting, or both.
IICorinthianII: So your saying that with intellect fortress "Undercast just becomes a nice thing to have" because it's decent enough spell but it's a "weak mechanic" on "sub-par" spells like "Mind Thrust and Ego Whip".
And it's not about the Mind Thrust and Ego Whip being weak? You admit Undercasting is a nice bonus for some spells when you like the them.
I think what you are missing is that those "sub-par" spells are from school of magic that don't normally get attack spells. You can get some nifty bonuses to those school. They may not be awesome spells overall, they are the best in those schools.
myself I not only want them to keep undercasting but I want them to add it to more spells.