IICorinthianII's page

But that makes a spell weak, not a mechanic.

I don't feel it does. Spells like Mind Thrust, Ego Whip, and PC would be fine choices if they had a scaling mechanic but held the lower level spell slot. The whole issue with Undercast, which makes it a weak mechanic, is that it forces you to use a higher level spell known for an effect that is not on par with similar spells of the level.

The immediate action spells with Undercast are only decent, I feel, because of the strong effects coupled with the immediate action casting time. Undercast just becomes a nice thing to have in this instance instead of a defining characteristic of the spell.

There are very few "Psychic fluff" spells on the current list, but if they all follow the Undercast mechanic and are of similar power level to Mind Thrust and Ego Whip, the Psychic will just be a sub-par 9th level spontaneous caster with a lot of trap spell choices.

I would like to see the mechanic changed completely, or implemented along side of an Overcast mechanic. That being said, the spell list really needs some work. Smaller and more psychic flavored is what I would like to see.

I may be biased though, I was a huge fan of the Power Point system from 3.5, and while I haven't played 5e yet, their version of scaling spells with Vancian casting is very well done from my initial impressions.

IICorinthianII wrote:

I shouldn't be Mind Thrusting or Ego Whipping with a level 6 spell.

This appears to be the centerpiece of your argument, but I haven't really seen any reason to accept it. Why shouldn't you need to use a 6th level spell known slot to get access to 6th level spell effects?

It appears as if a lot of the spells with Undercast are listed at a higher level specifically because they gain the versatility of Undercast. So it's only a 6th level spell when you consider the benefit of being able to cast the lower level versions (which you probably won't ever use on a normal day). I don't consider it much of a benefit, so to me it is a poor spell to select and not worth the slot.

A trap of a choice if you will.

Why would I choose a PC 5, essentially a 9th level save or die that lets me save or die worse with lower level slots, when I should be bending reality instead? I'm comparing the capabilities of other casting classes and their spells mind you; so if it is power-gaming to want a class to not be mechanically worse than similar classes, then I'm a power-gamer. Take it for what you will.

Overcasting would still give the Psychic a niche mechanic to play with and not make them strictly better than other casting classes. The spell list would have to be refined a little better than "copy a bunch of wizard stuff and call it a day" however.

All that being said, I do in fact like the shield and will save psychic spells, since those abilities scale with the level well, even with Undercast. If there were more spells built like them I could be swayed into liking Undercast a little more.

Wyntr has the right of it. That is exactly what I'm saying.

Undercasting takes up a valuable SPELL KNOWN slot for it to function. This is why it sucks. I shouldn't be Mind Thrusting or Ego Whipping with a level 6 spell.

This is inherently worse than it working the other way (having the lower level spell gain the versatility of being cast in a higher slot).

Arcane/Divine magic already scales with level on most spells (and those that don't are effects relative to the level) You don't even have to burn a higher spell slot for the day.

Basically, why even play this as it is written? I've read that the devs have a lot more Psychic Spells planned out, but where are they? This class is boring and gimped with the Undercast mechanic and a copied spell list.

Seriously though. Even skipping Ego Whip 1, 2, and 3, picking up 4 gives you, in effect, 4 spells known. Someone tell me how that is NOT a good thing?

Why would I want all of those lesser effects that I could potentially use in place of my 6th level spell KNOWN when I could do the same thing with a level 3 spell KNOWN that did the same thing but scaled up instead of down? Would it be broken for the spell to scale up when cast at a higher spell slot?

My opinion is it would not, or at least not any more than Arcane/Divine spells that scale up their effects with caster level. Maybe less so since the actual spell known would eat up the higher level slot for the day if cast in that way.

Basically it's an argument of "I want this spell that is versatile to cast but eats up a higher level spell that I can know" vs "I want this spell that is versatile to cast but eats up a higher level spell I can cast for the day".

I feel the second one is more useful and fits with the thematic idea of a Psychic Character more than the other.

It's also a free bonus. Not sure how that can possibly be considered a bad thing given that you're not paying anything extra for it.

If it's a selling point to play the class, it lost my interest at least.

Not to mention that the psychic magic specific spells are underpowered compared to other arcane/divine spells of the same level. Even with the Undercast mechanic.

Undercasting is trash. It should instead be "Overcasting", spells that scale when spontaneously cast at a higher spell slot. The higher level spells scale less or don't at all.

Picking a spell with Undercast because you can cast it as a weaker version if you want to is very underwhelming, especially when that is aimed to be a selling point for the specific spell selection.

My general comment:

The psychic doesn't have many options for, well, actually hurting things in combat. Inconveniencing them mightily? Yes. Controlling them? Yes. Confusing them? Of course.

But beyond magic missile and a few save-or-die spells scattered throughout, you've got the mind-affecting only mind thrust and psychic crush lines of spells with which to actually put hurt on an opponent, and these are limited to single target and look a bit weaksauce to boot.

This is probably intended as part of the class design (otherwise why not just play a sorcerer). However, my opinion is that it'd be good to have some sort of general self-defense setup for this class.

Put this guy and a skeleton in a room by themselves together, and the psychic is going to have to bust out his belt knife and go chipping away to survive.

Another point of opinion:

This guy looks way too much like the sorcerer to be a distinct base class. Make a "psychic" bloodline, slap int-attribute casting on it, and what's really so very different here?

Basically this.

I haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if I've missed something.

What the Psychic looks and feels like to me is an overly complicated rehash of a Sorcerer. Maybe instead of just tacking on a bunch of things arcane classes can already do, give them some new, scalable spells. I'd rather see a bunch of lower level spells that can be "Overcast" at a higher spell slot so they retain playability at higher levels. The higher level spells shouldn't need to scale, you should get an effect that is appropriate for a spell of that level.

For example: Ego whip I is not a 3rd level spell by any means. Especially when compared to what an arcane caster can do with a 3rd level spell slot normally. In addition the whole Undercast mechanic just seems confusing and unnecessary, not to mention most of the spells that do it are lackluster at best.

tldr; I would rather see a completely new spell list with scalable spells. Psychically themed of course.