So no matter what your hit die is, your always being damaged character level. So higher hit die means more likely more burn.
Isn't that right or did I miss some detail somewhere?
The point is that if the class had more hp, then to balance it, burn would just burn for more than it does now. The class was balanced with an average hit die in mind. Change that balance and other things would be changed to account for it.
On the other hand, assume the class keeps an average hit die, but the devs decide it needs more hp from testing. Then rather than changing the hit die, burn would just be changed to burn for less. The class has a lot of knobs to turn. Turn one and you usually have to turn a lot of others to match. BAB is a bigger knob than most.
Kineticist can wear heavier armor, they just need proficiency.
I know it's possible to do so, but the class as is severely feat starved. I was talking about class changes. For the change I was commenting on, I think the class would need better armor proficiencies given by the class.
What wasn't clear?They're attack rolls with feet! Obviously they should be full BAB, and we should get rid of this nonsense where a kinetic blast is a standard non-weapon action.That almost made some kind sense. Did you have a point?
Literally the entire post. I'm unsure if you're are being sarcastic or not and the whole feet thing is... odd.
Kineticist dips: I'll agree with Lemmy, I'm not seeing a huge rush for it with a full BAB one. It's not much different than grabbing sacred fist for the AC to wis, flurry, weapon profs (unlike kineticist), spells and an actual spell like to allow magic item use, blessings, weapon focus, improved unarmed strike.
Actually, it's a landslide on the one that makes a good dip and it's NOT the full BAB kineticist.
I have to add my voice to those who don't feel Full BAB is needed for this class.
I will say that I like the suggestion of zwordsman about using psuedo full bab on blasts only or even possibly the non-touch blasts only. Perhaps they could make a feat or wild talent that makes non-touch blasts, blasts. However, the class is already as hard on bonus feats as it can be, so that probably wouldn't work well.
Kineticist is, in my honest opinion, the most weapon or pseudo-weapon oriented of the occult classes. How much would it really hurt giving them full BAB and 1d10 HD, really. FTB could be redesigned to grant enhancement bonus (though, as I see it, it seems to scale at reasonable levels compared to magic weapons, so it could have been intended to replace the need for enhancement magic items (mind you, it's a minimum caster level 3 to create a basic +1 enhanced weapon, and increases by every 3 levels!)).
Seriously, they have *at-will* damage dealing ability which requires an *attack roll* not force a saving roll, and it seems intentionally powerful to act as their "weapon" of choice in all respects, melee or ranged, why restrict it to mediocre output?
I don't see it would be necessary to make all blasts target touch AC, remember how insane firearms are? We don't want another now do we? Sure, the how Blasts scale by 1d6+1 per odd levels + Con seems pretty heavy, but I think it's that way to get into somewhat equal amounts of damage compared to weapon users. Though, I must add that maybe Kinetic Blade should be tuned a bit, perhaps not applying constitution instead of strength to damage?
PS. please, just get over that 3.X fossilized assumption that 2+int skill ranks is enough for most classes; let it be at minimum 4+int, thanks!
EDIT:
PPS. I'd like to allow all ranged blasts to target touch, with 3/4 BAB as suggested before, and pseudo full BAB with Kinetic Blade to target normal AC, except for kinetic fire blast and the like.
it's generally a lot easier to target Touch so ranged blasts won't need that much base attack bonus, when compared to attacks that target the normal AC, which can easily climb to ridiculously high.
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Good, poor or average BAB doesn't really matter in the long run, except for the melee infusions. If the class needs more HP, then burn can burn for less. If the class needs more accuracy, then that can be added with class features. The point is that there is no meaningful reason to give good BAB as compared to giving poor BAB. The same power levels could be achieved with either, with enough tweaks.
The class has average BAB, because its flavor calls for it. It is essentially a combat spell caster. It doesn't have a full spell progression equivalent though. So, it's an average BAB class.
BAB doesn't make a difference?
I respectfully disagree here Melkiador. Sure, Kineticists can get more accuracy from adding more class features (and that is one viable approach to make them work), but another (and I'd argue more streamlined) approach to give the class more accuracy would just be to give them better BAB. Keeping things simple instead of making them even more complex? That seems like a meaningful-enough reason for improved BAB to me.
I still think that giving them poor BAB would significantly nerf them too, and the problem isn't that Kineticists need nerfing - but a buff.
On a final note, you could also easily flavor this class as more of a Paladin/Bloodrager-type of class, and I think the burn already lends itself to a Bloodrager/Barbarian playstyle. If you go with that type of flavor, then I could easily see this being a full BAB class.
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I don't think that kineticists should have full BAB. Feel the burn currently can make up the difference to blasts and add extra damage as well. I do think that feel the burn should also make the blast count as an equivalent +1 to the blast thus counting as the corresponding type of weapon.
BAB is most important for feats and iterative attacks. The core blast gets no iteratives and very few feats apply (improved crit is the only one I can see with a bab requirement).
Full BAB would add a couple of points of accuracy to the core blast, but honestly, accuracy is not the issue here, damage is. Accuracy is fine since because they only have to hit once.
Adding BAB would just further encourage melee (via kinetic whip) or picking up a regular bow and using talents for utility. Whatever is done should make the ranged blast the best option at base.
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Full BAB would add a couple of points of accuracy to the core blast, but honestly, accuracy is not the issue here, damage is. Accuracy is fine since because they only have to hit once.
I completely disagree... The current version of the Kineticist needs to use Feel The Burn and suffer a considerable amount of non-healable damage (about 25% for my Dwarf with Con 22, Toughness and FCB going to bonus HP) just to compensate for his lack of a magical weapon.
The Kineticist has to lose hp to have the accuracy of a Rogue with a magic weapon (or a Warrior with no magic/masterwork weapon)! And he deals little to no more damage than a Sneak Attack! At 10th level, (5d6 +5 + Con Modifier) is not very different from (1d8 + 5d6 + Weapon Enhancement + Str Modifier)... With the difference that the Rogue doesn't have to cripple himself to add those enhancement bonuses to his to-hit.
Melee options might be too good, but the Kineticist's blasts are pretty bad right now, and unless they can target touch AC, they are mostly a waste of time by 7th level or so... Unless you're facing mooks (in which case they don't need better damage) or enemies with particularly low AC (which shouldn't be the baseline for a combat class!)
I completely disagree... The current version of the Kineticist needs to use Feel The Burn and suffer a considerable amount of non-healable damage (about 25% for my Dwarf with Con 22, Toughness and FCB going to bonus HP) just to compensate for his lack of a magical weapon.
This argument is silly to me. Burn basically trades your extra hp for accuracy. You get the same hp as any other d8 class on average.
The Kineticist has to lose hp to have the accuracy of a Rogue with a magic weapon (or a Warrior with no magic/masterwork weapon)! And he deals little to no more damage than a Sneak Attack! At 10th level, (5d6 +5 + Con Modifier) is not very different from (1d8 + 5d6 + Weapon Enhancement + Str Modifier)... With the difference that the Rogue doesn't have to cripple himself to add those enhancement bonuses to his to-hit.
The rogue actually probably has the same or fewer hp in the end, but regardless, you're right. The damage is too weak. I agree. But the accuracy is fine. You just don't like the core feature of giving up your bonus hp from having a high con for extra hit/damage.
Melee options might be too good, but the Kineticist's blasts are pretty bad right now, and unless they can target touch AC, they are mostly a waste of time by 7th level or so...
Their touch blasts have lower dpr than their regular physical blasts. Again, you just hate feel the burn on principle. The damage needs help, but they hit fine. Hell, if rogues were designed to only need to hit once with their highest attack bonus and use nothing that penalizes their accuracy, they'd be fine, accuracywise, too.
But again, BAB doesn't do what you think it does. Plenty of 3/4 BAB classes are plenty accurate. The kineticist needs more damage, not more bab.
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The barbarian has d12's, full Bab, rage, and 4+ int all while doing everything better than kineticist. The barbarian gives up nothing for accuracy, damage, and extra hp so why should a kineticist? If you have to give up your defining feature to be accurate then you might as well not have that as a defining feature. I also do believe that they need better accuracy not just damage.
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This argument is silly to me. Burn basically trades your extra hp for accuracy. You get the same hp as any other d8 class on average.
I completely disagree... The current version of the Kineticist needs to use Feel The Burn and suffer a considerable amount of non-healable damage (about 25% for my Dwarf with Con 22, Toughness and FCB going to bonus HP) just to compensate for his lack of a magical weapon.
Completely negating the main advantage of focusing on Con... If you're going to remove the benefit of a class feature, then why even bother to include it in the first place? Should Paladins have all weak saves to "balance" Divine Grace? Should Rogues suffer a penalty to Into to "balance" their skills? Or maybe Fighters should get medium BAB to "balance" Weapon Training...
The Kineticist has to lose hp to have the accuracy of a Rogue with a magic weapon (or a Warrior with no magic/masterwork weapon)! And he deals little to no more damage than a Sneak Attack! At 10th level, (5d6 +5 + Con Modifier) is not very different from (1d8 + 5d6 + Weapon Enhancement + Str Modifier)... With the difference that the Rogue doesn't have to cripple himself to add those enhancement bonuses to his to-hit.The rogue actually probably has the same or fewer hp in the end, but regardless, you're right. The damage is too weak. I agree. But the accuracy is fine. You just don't like the core feature of giving up your bonus hp from having a high con for extra hit/damage.
It's the accuracy of a Rogue! [Medium BAB + Feel the Burn] gives you exactly the same bonus of [Medium BAB + Magical weapon]. If Rogues have problems hitting stuff (and they do!), then so do Kineticists.
With the difference that the Rogue has the option to Full-Attack if he wants. If he's under effect of lots of buffs, he even has a chance to hit most of this attacks! (And remember... We are comparing to a Rogue here, not an exactly known for being a powerful class, so matching it or being just slightly better it is not a good thing).
Scratch that! Rogues have better accuracy, actually! They often focus on Dex rather than Con!
At 10th level, my Kineticist was being overshadowed by a Ninja!
Melee options might be too good, but the Kineticist's blasts are pretty bad right now, and unless they can target touch AC, they are mostly a waste of time by 7th level or so...Their touch blasts have lower dpr than their regular physical blasts. Again, you just hate feel the burn on principle. The damage needs help, but they hit fine. Hell, if rogues were designed to only need to hit once with their highest attack bonus and use nothing that penalizes their accuracy, they'd be fine, accuracywise, too.
But again, BAB doesn't do what you think it does. Plenty of 3/4 BAB classes are plenty accurate. The kineticist needs more damage, not more bab.
BAB is a simple solution. It also comes with added hp. Right now, using Metakinesis once or twice a day leaves Kineticists with surprisingly low health... They effectively have no more hp than Clerics, unless they refuse to use their main class feature!
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I'd be deeply surprised if Kineticists don't wind up with a magic weapon equivalent for their blasts in the final book.
The utter (and a bit uncharacteristic) silence on Mark Seifter's part regarding that issue when brought up, as well as a similar silence regarding getting through DR with blasts (which something like this would also help a lot with), makes me almost positive.
Besides, everyone else who uses attack rolls has magic weapons or equivalents (AoMF), it would make very little sense for Kineticists not to.
That doesn't solve all the problems being discussed by any means, but it's certainly helpful on the accuracy problem specifically, if true.
I have to agree with Lemmy and the other in wanting an accuracy boost, preferably one that doesn't require hurting myself to gain. Increased damage doesn't matter much if you're missing...
I feel that focusing on their ranged touch attacks in order to claim they're accurate is silly, personally. Mostly because not all of their elements are given that option. I still say an option for ranged touch for earth and aether would help things. If only just slightly.
I feel that focusing on their ranged touch attacks in order to claim they're accurate is silly, personally. Mostly because not all of their elements are given that option. I still say an option for ranged touch for earth and aether would help things. If only just slightly.
Aether has a ranged touch (composite) blast.
Yes, you need to take the expanded element (aether) wild talent and use 2 (or 1 with move action reduction) burn to get a touch attack with aether.
Earth is still s.o.l.
I'd be deeply surprised if Kineticists don't wind up with a magic weapon equivalent for their blasts in the final book.
The utter (and a bit uncharacteristic) silence on Mark Seifter's part regarding that issue when brought up, as well as a similar silence regarding getting through DR with blasts (which something like this would also help a lot with), makes me almost positive.
Besides, everyone else who uses attack rolls has magic weapons or equivalents (AoMF), it would make very little sense for Kineticists not to.
That doesn't solve all the problems being discussed by any means, but it's certainly helpful on the accuracy problem specifically, if true.
I'm not quite as optimistic... Mark expressed the opinion that raising damage would be a better solution, so I fear Kineticists might end up joining Rogues in the "I can deal decent damage... During the 30% of time I actually hit stuff!" bench. :/
If the current accuracy stays, I see lots of Kineticis doing nothing useful for 2~3 rounds before their attacks finally hit... Or maybe getting lucky and hitting on the 1st round... Then spending 2-3 rounds trying to hit a different target.
I feel that focusing on their ranged touch attacks in order to claim they're accurate is silly, personally. Mostly because not all of their elements are given that option. I still say an option for ranged touch for earth and aether would help things. If only just slightly.Aether has a ranged touch (composite) blast.
Yes, you need to take the expanded element (aether) wild talent and use 2 (or 1 with move action reduction) burn to get a touch attack with aether.
So you get to wait 8 levels to have opportunity to take some incurable damage to make a touch attack! Problem solved... :P
So you get to wait 8 levels to have opportunity to take some incurable damage to make a touch attack! Problem solved... :PI feel that focusing on their ranged touch attacks in order to claim they're accurate is silly, personally. Mostly because not all of their elements are given that option. I still say an option for ranged touch for earth and aether would help things. If only just slightly.Aether has a ranged touch (composite) blast.
Yes, you need to take the expanded element (aether) wild talent and use 2 (or 1 with move action reduction) burn to get a touch attack with aether.
Exactly, nothing quite says fun like hurting yourself to hurt others :D
I'd be deeply surprised if Kineticists don't wind up with a magic weapon equivalent for their blasts in the final book.
The utter (and a bit uncharacteristic) silence on Mark Seifter's part regarding that issue when brought up, as well as a similar silence regarding getting through DR with blasts (which something like this would also help a lot with), makes me almost positive.
Besides, everyone else who uses attack rolls has magic weapons or equivalents (AoMF), it would make very little sense for Kineticists not to.
That doesn't solve all the problems being discussed by any means, but it's certainly helpful on the accuracy problem specifically, if true.
I'm not quite as optimistic... Mark expressed the opinion that raising damage would be a better solution, so I fear Kineticists might end up joining Rogues in the "I can deal decent damage... During the 30% of time I actually hit stuff!" bench. :/
If the current accuracy stays, I see lots of Kineticis doing nothing useful for 2~3 rounds before their attacks finally hit... Or maybe getting lucky and hitting on the 1st round... Then spending 2-3 rounds trying to hit a different target.
At the current accuracy, I see a lot more dips than actual straight Kineticists. 2 levels gets you some nice defenses or ranged disable device checks.
At the current accuracy, I see a lot more dips than actual straight Kineticists. 2 levels gets you some nice defenses or ranged disable device checks.I'd be deeply surprised if Kineticists don't wind up with a magic weapon equivalent for their blasts in the final book.
The utter (and a bit uncharacteristic) silence on Mark Seifter's part regarding that issue when brought up, as well as a similar silence regarding getting through DR with blasts (which something like this would also help a lot with), makes me almost positive.
Besides, everyone else who uses attack rolls has magic weapons or equivalents (AoMF), it would make very little sense for Kineticists not to.
That doesn't solve all the problems being discussed by any means, but it's certainly helpful on the accuracy problem specifically, if true.
I'm not quite as optimistic... Mark expressed the opinion that raising damage would be a better solution, so I fear Kineticists might end up joining Rogues in the "I can deal decent damage... During the 30% of time I actually hit stuff!" bench. :/
If the current accuracy stays, I see lots of Kineticis doing nothing useful for 2~3 rounds before their attacks finally hit... Or maybe getting lucky and hitting on the 1st round... Then spending 2-3 rounds trying to hit a different target.
Maybe 6 levels for at-will flight then Full BAB class...
Maybe 6 levels for at-will flight then Full BAB class...At the current accuracy, I see a lot more dips than actual straight Kineticists. 2 levels gets you some nice defenses or ranged disable device checks.I'd be deeply surprised if Kineticists don't wind up with a magic weapon equivalent for their blasts in the final book.
The utter (and a bit uncharacteristic) silence on Mark Seifter's part regarding that issue when brought up, as well as a similar silence regarding getting through DR with blasts (which something like this would also help a lot with), makes me almost positive.
Besides, everyone else who uses attack rolls has magic weapons or equivalents (AoMF), it would make very little sense for Kineticists not to.
That doesn't solve all the problems being discussed by any means, but it's certainly helpful on the accuracy problem specifically, if true.
I'm not quite as optimistic... Mark expressed the opinion that raising damage would be a better solution, so I fear Kineticists might end up joining Rogues in the "I can deal decent damage... During the 30% of time I actually hit stuff!" bench. :/
If the current accuracy stays, I see lots of Kineticis doing nothing useful for 2~3 rounds before their attacks finally hit... Or maybe getting lucky and hitting on the 1st round... Then spending 2-3 rounds trying to hit a different target.
True, at will flight + at will feather fall aren't bad if you have room for 6 levels.
True, at will flight + at will feather fall aren't bad if you have room for 6 levels.
Not exactly what I consider a dip, true... But I can see it happening for games that start at mid/high levels.
The barbarian has d12's, full Bab, rage, and 4+ int all while doing everything better than kineticist. The barbarian gives up nothing for accuracy, damage, and extra hp so why should a kineticist? If you have to give up your defining feature to be accurate then you might as well not have that as a defining feature. I also do believe that they need better accuracy not just damage.
Not only that, but they get rage powers at the same rate that the kinecicist get wild talents. Those powers can be supernatural in nature with utility that matches the wild talents. Also, his limited pool, rage (in comparison to burn) gives him almost no penalty and increases with level (eventually reaching +8 tireless rage). And obviously, as a combat class should, he gets good defenses (uncanny dodge, Improved U.D., Damage Reduction, trap sense, fast movement, indomitable will and medium armor). We are not even using archetypes...
So, yeah, I think it's safe to increase the kineticist's BaB (actually all should be increased, the class is lagging in every aspect when compared to the barbarian).
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I'm not quite as optimistic... Mark expressed the opinion that raising damage would be a better solution, so I fear Kineticists might end up joining Rogues in the "I can deal decent damage... During the 30% of time I actually hit stuff!" bench. :/
Given that 85% accuracy is well demonstrated on physical attacks by mid-level, I would say you are greatly exaggerating the issue.
Increasing the to-hit bonuses of the class will only affect non-touch melee iteratives. It will have no impact when blasting against opponents of average AC. I would rather see the base damage the and utility issues of the class addresses.
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I'm not quite as optimistic... Mark expressed the opinion that raising damage would be a better solution, so I fear Kineticists might end up joining Rogues in the "I can deal decent damage... During the 30% of time I actually hit stuff!" bench. :/Given that 85% accuracy is well demonstrated on physical attacks by mid-level, I would say you are greatly exaggerating the issue.
Increasing the to-hit bonuses of the class will only affect non-touch melee iteratives. It will have no impact when blasting against opponents of average AC. I would rather see the base damage the and utility issues of the class addresses.
Ahem...
Okay! Fine! You win! Kineticists need more damage!
My real problem is with Feel the Burn.
If it's obligatory, then it shouldn't hurt the character. The Rogue is not losing half his life to wield his magic weapon.
If it's optional (and IMO, it should be), then the Kineticist should be able to work without it and excel when using it, which means he needs a boost to accuracy/damage. That's not the case... Without FtB, Kineticists have the accuracy and damage of a Rogue with no magic (or even masterwork) weapon.
Burn is a high price to pay for mediocrity... What other class has to use their best buffs and resources just to be mediocre?
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Here are examples of character who are at least as good as a Fighter...
- A Cleric using his highest level spells and domain powers.
- A Ranger fighting his Favored Enemy
- A Paladin using Smite Evil
- An Inquisitor using Judgement and Bane
- A Hunter using Animal Aspect and fighting side-by-side with his Animal Companion
- A Druid using Wildshape and spells
- A Magus using Arcana and spells.
- A Sorcerer using metamagic blast spells.
- An Alchemist using Extracts/Mutagens.And so on... Do you see the pattern yet? All of those classes use their limited-use class features to excel! Their resources allow them to go above and beyond! And many of those resources are not even all that limited, nor do they make you weaker for using them.
The Kineticist, OTOH, is not only restricted to mediocrity, he is also paying the highest price of them all. A "permanent" loss of hp.
So while those classes lose access to their class features if they use them too much, they at least don't grow weaker than they'd be if they didn't have those features in the first place. The Kineticist does. And not only that, after using Burn once or twice, he becomes so fragile that even a mook can put him down... And unlike Wizards/Sorcerers, he doesn't have a bazillion different spells to boost his defenses... Just some okay-ish powers.
And then we have the fact that losing hp in Pathfinder is particularly dangerous... Rocket-tag is already a known problem in the game, whether people admit or not... A moderately optimized 2-handed Ranger can already one-shot CR-appropriate enemies... And also be one-shot by that same enemy.
How much does Burn exacerbate that problem? Specially if the Kineticist gets a (much needed) damage boost? He can kill the enemy in one round... But a mook can also put him down in the same time.
I don't go looking for Rocket Tag in my games, but it still shows up, because attack/damage outpaces AC/hp, often with little to no effort... And my players are not even particularly good or worried about optimization. Specially when average character level reaches the double digits.
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tl;dr:
Other Classes: Use limited resources to excel
Kineticists: Use a very limited resource to be mediocre
Other Classes: Uses up their ability and they become as weak as they would be if they didn't have those abilities in the first place
Kineticists: Uses up their ability and they become weaker than they would be if they didn't have that ability in the first place.Burn is too taxing and too difficult to correctly balance. Losing hp would need more playtest to get it right. And we are not getting more playtest time. It's best to simply let it go.
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I read your entire post, and disagreed with nearly all of it.
I chose to address the specific complaint that can be proven false using hard numbers. And that I have already posted comparisons for. Increasing accuracy above the current level only truly affects non-touch melee iteratives.
While I may occasionally disagree with mplindustries, her numbers and mine both match the numbers Mark has indicated he has. I would be happy if I could manage another 10 DPR, 6 skill points, a second defense options for each element and a few utility powers that don't require spending a talent.
I now you read my post. You even replied to it... Still, I consider it a good counter to the claim that Kineticists are accurate/damaging enough.
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I now you read my post. You even replied to it... Still, I consider it a good counter to the claim that Kineticists are accurate/damaging enough.
Accurate enough.
Not damaging enough. The problem is, full BAB won't increase DPR.
They are only accurate enough when they sacrifice a considerable amount of hp... While every other classes uses their features to excel, Kineticists use theirs to be average.
If something is obligatory to make a class effective, it shouldn't be harmful to the character.
If it isn't obligatory, then the class should be able to function well without it and excel when using it... You know... Like every other class feature out there.
FtB is like making the Monk lose hp every time he uses FoB. Or making a Cleric suffer incurable damage every time they buffed themselves.
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I now you read my post. You even replied to it... Still, I consider it a good counter to the claim that Kineticists are accurate/damaging enough.
Accurate enough.
Not damaging enough. The problem is, full BAB won't increase DPR.
They are only accurate enough when they sacrifice a considerable amount of hp... While every other classes uses their features to excel, Kineticists use theirs to be average.
If something is obligatory to make a class effective, it shouldn't be harmful to the character.
If it isn't obligatory, then the class should be able to function well without it and excel when using it... You know... Like every other class feature out there.
FtB is like making the Monk lose hp every time he uses FoB. Or making a Cleric suffer incurable damage every time they buffed themselves.
A kineticist does not loose HP every time he uses FtB. He gives up the hp once, at the beginning of the day, and enjoys the benefits all day.
A kineticist does not loose HP every time he uses FtB. He gives up the hp once, at the beginning of the day, and enjoys the benefits all day.
I know.
So he only uses it once a day... And suffers Burn that one time... Therefore, he loses hp every time he uses FtB... Which is once a day.
Every other Burn he suffers is unaffected by FtB (well, technically they get the cool visuals, but you know what I meant). You get no benefit from it.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think Full BAB is over-valued. Not that people on the thread think that Full BAB will fix a lot of things about this class, namely burn being less of an issue and accuracy getting boosted and feats getting gotten earlier, but from what we've seen in other classes Full BAB will probably guarantee that it gets 2+Int skills, and heavy nerfs to wild talents. In design Full BAB has a lot of value and I think most of the Kineticist's problems stem from the fact that it is essentially an at-will caster and that itself is overvalued because it's dangerously close to being broken. Look at the fighter. It's abilities are effectively at will and has full BAB and look how well that turned out for him. I think full BAB will hurt more than it helps because I fear that it will come at a steep price.
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A kineticist does not loose HP every time he uses FtB. He gives up the hp once, at the beginning of the day, and enjoys the benefits all day.I know.
So he only uses it once a day... And suffers Burn that one time... Therefore, he loses hp every time he uses FtB... Which is once a day.
Every other Burn he suffers is unaffected by FtB (well, technically they get the cool visuals, but you know what I meant). You get no benefit from it.
FtB bonuses are applied every single time you gather energy. All day long.
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FtB bonuses are applied every single time you gather energy. All day long.
Tsc... Let me rephrase that.
You use FtB. You get the benefit. You lost hp and you got the +X to attack rolls. That effect lasts all day long... Once it reaches +1 for every 3 Kineticist levels, it doesn't increase anymore.
So the +X effect is used once. Its effects last 24h or whatever... But it's still only used once. That one time, you lose hp.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think Full BAB is over-valued. Not that people on the thread think that Full BAB will fix a lot of things about this class, namely burn being less of an issue and accuracy getting boosted and feats getting gotten earlier, but from what we've seen in other classes Full BAB will probably guarantee that it gets 2+Int skills, and heavy nerfs to wild talents. In design Full BAB has a lot of value and I think most of the Kineticist's problems stem from the fact that it is essentially an at-will caster and that itself is overvalued because it's dangerously close to being broken. Look at the fighter. It's abilities are effectively at will and has full BAB and look how well that turned out for him. I think full BAB will hurt more than it helps because I fear that it will come at a steep price.
How about look at the barbarian? Why are we pushing for rogue or fighter level? There's zero reason that the kineticist can't use the barbarian chassis without nerfing anything. In fact it should be buffed up in addition to using that barbarian chassis.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think Full BAB is over-valued. Not that people on the thread think that Full BAB will fix a lot of things about this class, namely burn being less of an issue and accuracy getting boosted and feats getting gotten earlier, but from what we've seen in other classes Full BAB will probably guarantee that it gets 2+Int skills, and heavy nerfs to wild talents. In design Full BAB has a lot of value and I think most of the Kineticist's problems stem from the fact that it is essentially an at-will caster and that itself is overvalued because it's dangerously close to being broken. Look at the fighter. It's abilities are effectively at will and has full BAB and look how well that turned out for him. I think full BAB will hurt more than it helps because I fear that it will come at a steep price.How about look at the barbarian? Why are we pushing for rogue or fighter level? There's zero reason that the kineticist can't use the barbarian chassis without nerfing anything. In fact it should be buffed up in addition to using that barbarian chassis.
Because the Barbarian rage isn't exactly at will even if after a couple of levels it might as well be. If it were based on the barbarian then it would likely have some kind of limiter or pool. This may make it's power level more in line with what the forum expects but it would lose the 'all day' appeal.
Now that I typed it out, would anyone give up having blasts at will to make the class more powerful? Things like spells and rage stop feeling limited by 10th level at the most but it's allowed to be more powerful by merit of being limited. (correct me if you think I'm wrong about that theory)
Now that I typed it out, would anyone give up having blasts at will to make the class more powerful? Things like spells and rage stop feeling limited by 10th level at the most but it's allowed to be more powerful by merit of being limited. (correct me if you think I'm wrong about that theory)
No, at will is a huge part of what I like about the class. If you take away the at will aspect, I doubt I would ever want to play one.
Burn is limited too and causes effectively permanent HP dmg and much more limited than rage. Don't forget barbarians also have rage powers too and it's also my understanding that barbarians can swing a sword all dang day, that sounds at will to me. I really don't get some of these "reasons" when we have core barbarians like they are.
Now that I typed it out, would anyone give up having blasts at will to make the class more powerful? Things like spells and rage stop feeling limited by 10th level at the most but it's allowed to be more powerful by merit of being limited. (correct me if you think I'm wrong about that theory)
Why? Giving them only full Bab and d12 HD would still make them worse than a barbarian. Yall must play with all rogues and fighters.
Burn is limited too and causes effectively permanent HP dmg and much more limited than rage. Don't forget barbarians also have rage powers too and it's also my understanding that barbarians can swing a sword all dang day, that sounds at will to me. I really don't get some of these "reasons" when we have core barbarians like they are.
Burn is never required beyond the level of "Feel the Burn." Once you hit that cap, you stop using abilities that cause Burn. You use everything in your power to avoid it completely. Take the right specializations and move actions and ignore composites before 15 and metakinesis (except empower with a move and maximize at 19 with a move) and you'll never have to take burn unless you want to. Composite blasts are like finishing maneuvers. You only do it when you're going to bed next or you're definitely going to die without it.
Now that I typed it out, would anyone give up having blasts at will to make the class more powerful? Things like spells and rage stop feeling limited by 10th level at the most but it's allowed to be more powerful by merit of being limited. (correct me if you think I'm wrong about that theory)Why? Giving them only full Bab and d12 HD would still make them worse than a barbarian. Yall must play with all rogues and fighters.
Only because their abilities are sub-par due to being at will.