Okay Jason, so I took all of your thoughts into consideration & I looked up every scenario on Vance's list. Here's what I've got currently (my random side notes included):
Spoiler:
1st Level:
6-10 The Wounded Wisp
5 Mists of Mwangi – Blackros Museum Pt1 (1-5)
35 Voice in the Void – Blackros Museum Pt2 (1-7)
2nd Level:
14 Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch (1-7)
1 Silent Tide – Undead pirate adventure in Absalom’s Puddles District (1-5)
45 Delirium's Tangle – GT scenario (1-5)
3rd Level
51 City of Strangers, Part 1 - The Shadow Gambit (1-7)
52 City of Strangers, Part 2 - The Twofold Demise (1-7)
SP2 Year of the Shadow Lodge
4th Level:
2-15 Shades of Ice, Part 1 - Written in Blood (1-5)
2-17 Shades of Ice, Part 2 - Exiles of Winter (1-5)
2-19 Shades of Ice, Part 3 - Keep of the Huskarl King (1-5)
5th Level:
2-06 The Heresy of Man, Part 1 - The First Heresy
2-07 The Heresy of Man, Part 2 - Where the Dark Things Sleep
2-09 The Heresy of Man, Part 3 - Beneath Forgotten Sands
6th Level:
2-03 The Rebel's Ransom – Perfect Rating! (5-9)
2-25 You Only Die Twice – Rated Highly (5-9)
2-21 The Dalsine Affair – Might should keep it for story reasons (1-7)
7th Level:
2-04 Shadows Fall on Absalom
2-23 Shadow's Last Stand, Part 1 - At Shadow's Door (1-7)
2-24 Shadow's Last Stand, Part 2 - Web of Corruption (1-7)
8th Level:
22 Fingerprints of the Fiend – Mixed Reviews Chelaxian Indiana Jones mission, Rachikan (7-11)
2-08 The Sarkorian Prophecy – Find the key to defeat the Shadow Lodge (7-11)
2-10 Fury of the Fiend – 2nd Rachikan mission, Near perfect rating (7-11)
9th Level:
The Harrowing Module? - Perfect Rating
10th Level:
2-14 The Chasm of Screams – Not too highly rated, seems like it would need refining
2-12 Below the Silver Tarn – Perfect Rating, Nidalese horror
2-16 The Flesh Collector – Mixed reviews, but has good RP & potentially challenging combat in Nex
11th Level:
2-18 The Forbidden Furnace of Forgotten Koor – Near Perfect Rating, Quadiran search & save
2-20 Wrath of the Accursed – Perfect Rating, Osirian mission
2-26 The Mantis's Prey – One reviewer argued that it should come before Shadow’s Last Stand 1 & 2.
My questions are these: Does Silent Tide specifically have Grandmaster Torch in it? Also, The Chasm of Screams didn't have a very high user rating. Is there a reason I should keep it on the list, or should I switch it out for something better? If so - what?
Also, does everything look like it's in order as for as logical story progression goes?
-And with that typed, I just want to also give a big thanks to everyone that's given me feedback so far, guys - and especially Jason. You're awesome man!
Branding - to answer your question, the other guy who plans to Co-GM with me doesn't really seem interested in legal PFS play since he wants to have room to alter the scenarios if need be. We are planning to draw material solely from PFS scenarios though (sanctioned or unsanctioned - either will be fair game). Currently, it also sounds like we'll probably be doing a full- to semi- core game. I say "semi" because we may or may not decide to use the updated Unleashed versions of Rogues, Barbarians, and Monks.
Zack - I have heard that some of the Season 0 scenarios are too easy or just poorly balanced. There probably will be a decent number of tweaks that go into those scenarios (at least when I'm running - I like to give players a challenge. That way, it feels more rewarding when they win).
Also, at DH - thanks for the link! I'll check it out and see how it compares to a few other links people posted in the General Discussion thread.
Edit: Yeah. This is actually the same thread that someone else posted too - but it is really helpful. When I first found it, all the lists were kind of overwhelming, but now that I'm making sense of it all, I'm currently leaning towards the Season 2 list that Vance posted.
1st Level:
5 Mists of Mwangi
1 Silent Tide
35 Voice in the Void
2nd Level:
14 Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch
2-11 The Penumbral Accords
45 Delirium's Tangle
3rd Level
51 City of Strangers, Part 1 - The Shadow Gambit
52 City of Strangers, Part 2 - The Twofold Demise
SP2 Year of the Shadow Lodge
17 Perils of the Pirate Pact (ALTERNATE)
4th Level:
2-01 Before the Dawn, Part 1 - The Bloodcove Disguise
2-02 Before the Dawn, Part 2 - Rescue at Azlant Ridge
2-13 Murder on the Throaty Mermaid
5th Level:
2-15 Shades of Ice, Part 1 - Written in Blood
2-17 Shades of Ice, Part 2 - Exiles of Winter
2-19 Shades of Ice, Part 3 - Keep of the Huskarl King
6th Level:
2-03 The Rebel's Ransom
2-25 You Only Die Twice
2-21 The Dalsine Affair
7th Level:
22 Fingerprints of the Fiend
2-23 Shadow's Last Stand, Part 1 - At Shadow's Door
2-24 Shadow's Last Stand, Part 2 - Web of Corruption
8th Level:
2-04 Shadows Fall on Absalom
2-08 The Sarkorian Prophecy
2-10 Fury of the Fiend
9th Level:
2-06 The Heresy of Man, Part 1 - The First Heresy
2-07 The Heresy of Man, Part 2 - Where the Dark Things Sleep
2-09 The Heresy of Man, Part 3 - Beneath Forgotten Sands
10th Level:
2-14 The Chasm of Screams
2-12 Below the Silver Tarn
2-16 The Flesh Collector
11th Level:
2-18 The Forbidden Furnace of Forgotten Koor
2-20 Wrath of the Accursed
2-26 The Mantis's Prey
Jason, I'm especially interested to pick your brain since you're doing this setup already, and looking at the above list, it seems to basically follow the progression that you and Mark recommend. The only mission that's completely missing from the list is Frozen Finger. Any recommendations for when I should fit FF into the list? Also, how does this list compare to your home game? Are there any scenarios that I should switch around in the order they're played?
Also, this is to anyone in general - any recommendations for other scenarios that I should take out/fit in as well?
On a final note, my brother and I have already played through The Dalsine Affair (but everything else is completely new to us). That typed, is The DA adventure necessary to the plot, or could it be taken out and replaced with something else? If so - any recommendations?
That typed, if you'd prefer to skip the context of this post and get straight to the point, please scroll to the bottom for the overarching question. I'd appreciate any recommendations you can give & thanks in advance!
That typed however, (& for those of you that may be curious) recently my brother and I (who are both fairly hardcore PFS players) had a discussion with three of our board game buddies. I call them "board game buddies" because we normally only play board games and card games when we hang out with them - no RPGs and the like. That typed however, they've been expressing interest in starting up an RPG home game with us. Of the three, only one of them has any prior experience with Pathfinder (or RPGs in general), but they're all eager to get a game going. One of them (the guy with RPG experience) even wants to GM for the group - which is fine by me (I already GM a decent bit).
So, we ended up discussing the details, and we're currently thinking that the best way to run the home game would be to do a co-GM style of play - one where we can swap out a GM/PC spot between him and myself whenever one of us needs to take a break and doesn't have time to prepare an adventure.
Keeping that in mind, my brother and I thought that running a campaign based off PFS scenarios might be the best way to go about things. This way, since the PFS scenarios are mostly created to be episodic stand-alone adventures in their own right, both the other GM and myself could prepare scenarios in isolation, without spoiling future scenarios for the other when we're playing our own PCs.
Also, considering that my brother and I haven't played many PFS scenarios from Season 0, and absolutely no scenarios from Season 1 or 2, we thought that we could try to organize a campaign around Season 0, 1, & 2 scenarios - capping things off with Eyes of the Ten.
Now, whether you followed my long-winded explanation or not, the bottom line is this:
-My friends and I are wanting to play a series of PFS scenarios that we can string together into a solid campaign. We're hoping to organize a logical progression (story-wise) of scenarios from PFS Seasons 0, 1, & 2 that ultimately culminate in The Eyes of the Ten retirement arch, and to aid that end - I'm asking for help from the forum community.
So, if there's any advice, links to other forum threads, or general guidance you can give to help make this idea a reality in any way - my friends and I would greatly appreciate it.
Once again, thanks in advance guys, and I look forward to hearing from you!
In the playtest document under Wild Talents, it's stated that,
"At 6th, 10th, and 16th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her wild talents with another wild talent of the same level."
When they say, "of the same level" here, do they mean of the same level as the current kineticist level (so at 6th level, you can replace a 1st level talent with a 6th level talent)? Or are they saying that you can replace a 1st level talent with another 1st level talent?
I'm slightly confused by the wording, and I wanted a clarification.
^I'm bumping this question, as I think it got lost in a debate of "smart kineticists."
In the playtest document under Wild Talents, it's stated that,
"At 6th, 10th, and 16th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her wild talents with another wild talent of the same level."
When they say, "of the same level" here, do they mean of the same level as the current kineticist level (so at 6th level, you can replace a 1st level talent with a 6th level talent)? Or are they saying that you can replace a 1st level talent with another 1st level talent?
I'm slightly confused by the wording, and I wanted a clarification.
As far as concepts go, I've had fun creating a Zon-Kuthon worshipping Kineticist. The class just seemed to fit so well with the idea of gaining pleasure through pain. The only difficult part was trying to explain how he was Lawful Neutral instead of Lawful Evil - but my guy just likes to feel alive (pain allows him to feel that way - and it was the only thing that allowed him to feel that way while he was imprisoned by the Silent Shroud - which ties into his backstory).
I like that idea for why the phantom could be a fear spirit - but yeah, that's basically my issue. I feel like multiple phantoms would work well with my concept, so I was thinking I'd see what everyone thought about the phantoms in-general first. Maybe I won't be having these issues once the full list of phantoms comes out (maybe they'll have a Love spirit that really fits my concept?), but for now - I'm more curious to see what everyone thought of the phantom options mechanically, as that will effect my own phantom choice somewhat.
Fear and Jealousy are actually the two phantoms I was most curious to read opinions on since they are indeed the most unique.
That typed, I feel like Jealousy's Jealous Combatant ability is kind of weak (especially when you consider that Fear has the exact same effect (and then some) with it's slams...
-But wait. I just noticed that Fear specifically calls out that slam attacks are needed to trigger the effect, while with Jealousy you just need to hit with any attack at all (so you could use Jealousy's ability while wielding a weapon).
So maybe the Jealousy Lvl 1 ability does have its advantages over Fear after all if you want to deal more damage. It's aura effect looks potentially effective too & Retribution looks nice if you plan to take the phantom to Lvl 12.
Still, fear does look like fun (especially once you hit Lvl 7).
With all that typed however, I'm still not really feeling Hatred quite yet. It does get Weapon Finesse and it's challenge ability is nice too, but its aura looks incredibly weak. I guess that may not be the main selling point of the emotion, but still I'm stuck on that.
Really, I'm just not sure which phantom I want to play with myself yet. I've got a vague concept in mind for what I want flavor & combat-wise with my Spiritualist (an Osiriani Tengu trying to help a spirit [possibly his wife/lover] find their way into the afterlife & who charges into combat alongside their phantom), but I'm still open to creating a phantom with any emotional leanings.
I don't think phantoms get max hp at level 1. Since they work a lot like Eidolons, they probably only start with 7 hp. Otherwise, everything looks okay.
I have some questions about phantoms, and I'm not sure if they've been asked already (my apologies if they have).
The first question I have is this: It says specifically in the playtest rules that Phantoms cannot wear armor - but can they wield weapons? Can a phantom choose Martial Weapon Proficiency as their first feat - then start swinging a Greatsword without a penalty (and just like an Eidolon)?
Also, if the answer to that first question is yes, then do they get iterative attacks with said weapon (although it's mentioned that Phantoms don't get iteratives with their slams - it says nothing about manufactured weapons)?
Finally, if Phantoms can & doe wield manufactured weapons, then how does that interact with their slam attacks? Can a Phantom slam with it's hands full (thus, if it wields a weapon and attacks with said weapon, can it also slam its opponents in the same turn with a full-attack action)? Are the slams counted as attacks with its "fists" (if it actually has fists...)? Or are the slams just considered to be any part of the Phantom's form slamming the opponent (leaving its "hands" free to wield a weapon too)?
Thanks in advance!
(:
1) RAW, they can wield weapons just like Eidolons
2) Yes, they get iteratives at the appropriate BAB, as does anything using a manufactured weapon (they have to mention the no-iterative thing whenever talking about natural weapons.)
3) Slam attacks are made using arms if the creature has them. If it takes a full attack wielding a 1-handed weapon, the Phantom should be able to use one of its slam attacks as a secondary attack (with the associated penalties) per natural attack rules.
Cool. Thanks for the clarifications there Lukas. That's pretty much what I was expecting, but I wanted to be sure before I started trying to playtest the class.
I have some questions about phantoms, and I'm not sure if they've been asked already (my apologies if they have).
The first question I have is this: It says specifically in the playtest rules that Phantoms cannot wear armor - but can they wield weapons? Can a phantom choose Martial Weapon Proficiency as their first feat - then start swinging a Greatsword without a penalty (and just like an Eidolon)?
Also, if the answer to that first question is yes, then do they get iterative attacks with said weapon (although it's mentioned that Phantoms don't get iteratives with their slams - it says nothing about manufactured weapons)?
Finally, if Phantoms can & doe wield manufactured weapons, then how does that interact with their slam attacks? Can a Phantom slam with it's hands full (thus, if it wields a weapon and attacks with said weapon, can it also slam its opponents in the same turn with a full-attack action)? Are the slams counted as attacks with its "fists" (if it actually has fists...)? Or are the slams just considered to be any part of the Phantom's form slamming the opponent (leaving its "hands" free to wield a weapon too)?
I'm currently in the process of building a Spiritualist to play later this week, and I was wondering what everyone thought about the different Phantom options that are out currently. I realize that the playtest options are only the tip of the iceberg, and it's already been noted that there will be more Phantom emotions coming out down the pipeline. Still though, I'm curious what are everyone's current thoughts.
So, keeping that in mind - which Phantoms do you guys think are the strongest? Which Phantoms do you think are the weakest? Why?
Personally, having only looked over them all on paper, I feel like the one that gets Power Attack as a bonus feat will probably be the strongest (it has a nice aura effect too) - but then the Fear Phantom also looks like a lot of fun (causing everything to be shaken and feared with its slams and aura).
The Devotion/Zeal Phantom (I forget what it's actual name is) looks to be the weakest to me, as it's aura isn't all that great, and personally, the only ability that it gets that I really like is the one where it can stay out even when it's Spiritualist is asleep. That's pretty nifty - but I still don't feel like it's enough to make that Phantom emotion on-par with the others.
Low. Level. AoE. Blasts. It doesn't need to be the same damage as the primary blast but every element should be able to do a weak AoE of some kind to at least be able to handle swarms.
^I can't agree more with this sentiment. I'm still having trouble believing that Pyrokineticists currently don't get an AoE of any kind until Lvl 16! I would love to see some kind of logical progression from nothing to nuclear. Maybe each element could get a weaker damage (half blast damage?) AoE option at Lvl 1, a stronger damage (full blast damage?) AoE at Lvl 6, and a bigger AoE (but still full blast damage?) option at Lvl 10?
I'm still not sold on the water defense - but I also don't know how all the rules interact. How does armor normally work with things like elemental body? Do you keep the armor bonus when you change forms? I seem to recall that you don't - so if that is the case, then I can see where you're coming from there.
Having still not played a Kineticist yet in-game (especially a high-level one), I don't know exactly how common melee-focused fighting is in the class. On paper, melee does seem ideal when you get iterative attacks though, and if you're forced into melee in order to get the most damage output in every scenario, then that might be another issue with the class (depending on whether the developers were intending Kineticists to actually be melee fighters, ranged combatants, or both).
As far as burn goes though, it might not be hard to avoid burn at 20th level, but I'm more concerned about earlier levels. How are people avoiding so much burn? Is it just that one Move Action Option and stacked Infusion Specializations? Even so, 1 nonlethal per HD sounds harsh, and why force players to take extra burn on levels where their attacks aren't getting any more powerful through more Wild Talents/blast damage anyway?
Again, I do like the idea behind the burn mechanic (taking damage to use more powerful abilities), but I think the amount of nonlethal damage dealt per burn could be revised.
On a sidenote, I'd like to add this to my opening comments:
Wild Talents - Continued...
I was looking over Wild Talents in more depth the other night, and I realized that Fire Kineticists don't gain access to a single AoE blast infusion until 16th level. This just seems to be completely counter-intuitive to the flavor and mechanics I'd expect from a Pyrokineticist PC. Shouldn't they be able to rain AoEs of fiery death down on their enemies by at least level 10? Compared to the other elements, I feel like Pyrokineticists should maybe trade out flexibility, but overall have more potential for damage and (again) AoEs. They should at least have similar options to Water Kineticists, who can get both Torrent and Spray by levels 6 & 10 respectively. I could easily see lines of fire and cones of fire as logical blast infusions, and by giving Pyros a Lvl 6 & 10 AoE option, it would create a more logical build up to the uber-infusion that is Explosion.
Also, one other thing that struck me as a bit odd about the Wild Talents - there seem to be a lot more form infusions than substance infusions. Out of 24 combat infusions (I believe that's the right number), I only counted 8 substance infusions. Not sure if that's a really big issue in itself, but each element gets quite a few more form infusions than substance infusions. It would be nice to see more substance infusion options getting added in later down the line.
I thought I'd join the bandwagon and get in all my thoughts of the Kineticist, at least as I see them now (having not yet played a game with one, though I intend to play a 1-2 PFS adventure this weekend with a Pyro or Aether).
The Concept
First off, I want to say that I love this concept. I went into the Occult Playtest rules not very excited about the theme at all, but Kineticists were the first thing that caught my eye and changed my mind. I really do like the mental image of hurling limitless energy balls, summoning energy blades, turning into a force of nature and streaking across the field.
I also like the idea of having Con as your scaling class stat, sacking HP to get more powerful abilities, and having a living-on-the-edge type of playstyle. That sounds cool and exciting.
The Burn Mechanic
Of course, like many other players that I've seen in this forum, I have issues with the way the concept has currently been put into practice. The current burn mechanic in-particular does seem too harsh to me. Sure. You're suffering nonlethal damage, but that non-lethal damage looks like it can really add up fast.
I feel that suffering 1 nonlethal damage per Hit Dice is a mistake.
When I was originally looking at the Kineticist class, I was thinking that the burn just meant that you suffered that much damage total per attack – so 1 burn = 1 nonlethal. I thought the Kineticist was okay if that were the case, but one nonlethal per HD? That means that even at levels where you’re damage output doesn’t increase, you’re still taking more damage from the scaling burn. This means that at lower levels you’re able to manage alright (2 pts of nonlethal here… 3 pts of nonlethal there… It’s about the equivalent of Vicious Weapon Damage) but at higher levels, 1 burn could deal more damage than I feel it should. I could only imagine dealing 20 damage to myself at Level 20 – or 40, 60, etc. And sure, the Infusion Specializations should be able to help mitigate that, but still – that’s a lot of damage to deal to yourself, nonlethal or otherwise.
If burn has to scale at all, I don’t think it should scale off of HD. I’d much rather see it scale off of Simple Blast Damage (+1 nonlethal every odd lvl), or even off of Wild Talent Progression (so every time you gain a new Wild Talent, burn costs you a cumulative +1 nonlethal). Burn damage progression could be documented on the Kineticist table to keep things more simplified too.
On a side note, another way to balance the burn damage could be to make the Move Action Option for -1 Burn become a Swift or Free Action at higher levels. This in-particular is something I would really like to see (that's why I've got it highlighted & italicized for emphasis.) It would make the ability work similarly to the Slayer's studied target ability.
Class Stats
I want to make a particular note of the class statistics here, as one other possible solutions to the burn mechanic would be to simply give the Kineticist a better HD. More health would mean a better ability to soak up all the damage that you deal to yourself, and I could see a D10 or D12 HD being completely justified for this class. Not only would the HD seem to fit the playstyle of this class (reckless, all-out damage-dealing energy user; much like a barbarian - minus the energy part), but a lot of PF books seem to have at least one martial class-type of character (which the occult book is currently lacking). The Kineticist could be the Paladin/Barbarian/Bloodrager equivalent for the Occult Book.
As I posted in another thread, I’m also totally up for giving the Kineticist full BAB too and/or 4 skill points per level – though, if the Kineticist could get one thing, I would say get them the better HD (especially if they’re going to use touch-attack simple blasts – which seem to be the best option currently).
Simple Blasts
This was noted by others, but I feel that every element should have access to both forms of simple blast. It seems trivial to have limitations on that.
I also feel that if the touch and ranged attacks are going to be balanced, then the ranged attacks need to have more incentive to be used. The ranged attacks need to do more than 1 extra point of damage per level and full Con damage. Maybe the Con could be 1.5x damage, or extra damage every odd level could be increased?
Elemental Defense
I feel that of the Elemental Defenses, Earth and Air have really good ones – although Earth is probably the best hands-down. Fire is okay (though it won’t often find use – when it does find use, it could be pretty powerful). I could still see it getting a buff (perhaps make it so that all melee attacks suffer return damage, but non-unarmed strike/natural attackers take half damage?).
Whatever the case, I feel that both Aether and Water got the shaft here. Both the Temp HP and AC bonuses don’t scale very well. Maybe the Temp HP could be upped to 2 HD or more, and/or the burn option could scale faster? Same goes with the water. I feel that it could probably scale faster too. Otherwise, why not just buy a magical buckler? Sure it would cost a decent bit more, but then you could be an Earth Kineticist and get the much more useful DR instead.
Wild Talents
Some of the Wild Talents are really cool and thematic (I especially like the Ride the Blast ability flavor-wise). Some are definitely underpowered though. I can call out Pressurized Blast Infusion as a serious offender. It costs 1 Burn to *maybe* move an enemy 5 ft? If anything, it should *automatically* move the enemy 5 ft – no check required. Even then however, 5 ft is a negligible amount of space. I don’t know why I’d ever get that ability.
I'm not sure how I feel about Kinetic Fist, as it seems like it scales very, very slowly (though it would be an excellent 1 Lvl class dip). Also, Burning Infusion doesn't scale at all & I'd love to see it scale one way or another (though that might not be a major issue - an extra D6 damage is still nice, no matter what level you are).
I haven’t looked through all the Wild Talents so I’m not going to pretend to know which of the other options are weak or powerful. I feel that some of them could potentially just be turned into automatic class abilities though (kind of like how the gunslinger gets a small selection of grit abilities to begin with). A lot of the universal Wild Talents could be talents that the Kineticists simply get for free once they reach the required level (Kinetic Blade & Extended Range for instance both feel like abilities that all Kineticists could be able to access). That would give players access to more of the more flavorful Wild Talents, while still having access to the basic necessities of the class for combat and such.
In sum, these are all my initial thoughts of the class. I feel Kineticists are an awesome idea. I just feel that they haven’t reached their sweet spot yet, and still need some work.
The only issue I see with an ability like this is that a lot of combats are over within a couple rounds. It might could be useful in a big, tough fight like a boss-battle, but a lot of the time you probably would be better off just throwing your normal blasts instead of charging up.
Still, it is a cool concept. It might could get tweaked a bit though. I don't know.
Good, poor or average BAB doesn't really matter in the long run, except for the melee infusions. If the class needs more HP, then burn can burn for less. If the class needs more accuracy, then that can be added with class features. The point is that there is no meaningful reason to give good BAB as compared to giving poor BAB. The same power levels could be achieved with either, with enough tweaks.
The class has average BAB, because its flavor calls for it. It is essentially a combat spell caster. It doesn't have a full spell progression equivalent though. So, it's an average BAB class.
BAB doesn't make a difference?
I respectfully disagree here Melkiador. Sure, Kineticists can get more accuracy from adding more class features (and that is one viable approach to make them work), but another (and I'd argue more streamlined) approach to give the class more accuracy would just be to give them better BAB. Keeping things simple instead of making them even more complex? That seems like a meaningful-enough reason for improved BAB to me.
I still think that giving them poor BAB would significantly nerf them too, and the problem isn't that Kineticists need nerfing - but a buff.
On a final note, you could also easily flavor this class as more of a Paladin/Bloodrager-type of class, and I think the burn already lends itself to a Bloodrager/Barbarian playstyle. If you go with that type of flavor, then I could easily see this being a full BAB class.
For what it's worth, I like a lot of what Kestral had to say. The skill points and BAB/HD ideas in-particular. I'm a bit confused about the note on Kinetic Whip/Blade though. Do Kinetic Whip/Blade provoke attacks when you summon them currently?
-If so, that definitely is an issue that I'd like to see get resolved.
I also like all the flavor ideas listed at the beginning of the thread.
With the right tweaks, the class could just as easily be poor BAB and d6 Hit Die. Burn is balanced around total hit points. If they raise the hit die, they would raise the burn. Likewise if they lower the hit die, they could lower the burn. Accuracy is a thing that can easily be added with various mechanics.
I feel lowering the hit die could help the class embrace more damage and more utility as it could become more comparable to a full caster.
Hey guys,
I'll admit that I haven't had a chance to actually play a Kineticist yet, but they are one of the classes that most caught my eye when reading over the playtest document. That typed, I feel that the above would the wrong direction to take this class in.
Personally, my favorite thing about Kineticists right now is the ability to go melee-centric with them. If you make them into complete equivalents of wizards/sorcerors for BAB and HP, that really hurts their options for melee/close-combat and makes them just a spell-less mage (which would probably suck).
I would much rather see Kineticists get full BAB all the time and potentially a better HD too.
Maybe the way to balance melee vs. ranged combat would be to make it so that they'd suffer burn for every attack they make in a turn?
-That might end up being too severe, but there should be a way to balance the two styles of play without making one completely obsolete. While blasting things with elemental energy is cool, I'd personally like to have a character that can also summon energy blades at will while rushing into combat.
Well, I read over everything everyone had to say so far, and I'm back with a first draft at a level progression chart for my Kitsune Rogue. Here's what I'm thinking of right now:
I'm only focusing on levels 1-17 because that's the official level range for Skull & Shackles I believe.
I decided to pick up the Scout archetype first off. I also decided to wait until lvl 2 to get Weapon Finesse, as Realistic Likeness just looks like it'd be way too much fun to not pick up from the very beginning.
I'm not sure what would be best to pick up as my second feat. Considering I'm the party face, an extra boost to Diplomacy might be nice, but Wall Climber does sound really good, and Improved Initiative could be handy too (even Combat Reflexes - Gah! So many choices!)
After realizing from this thread just how good Saps can be with Rogues, I'm also going to try and take the Sap Master and Shatter Defenses line of feats - aiming to get the fully lethal combo by level 8.
*Remember, my GM is allowing Rogues to take sneak attack feats as rogue talents.
I'm not sure if I should try to get the Sap Master ability even sooner (I could technically get it as soon as level 5 - but then I would have to wait for Shatter Defenses, which looks really nice on a rogue).
I'm not a big fan of the idea of waiting until lvl 7 to get Offensive Defense (as that seems like a long while to survive without it) but then again, I could also pick up Sap Master a level earlier if I want to wait until lvl 8 for OD...
You guys also sold me on the other Kitsune feats, so I'm going to try to get all of them asap.
10th and 11th levels are going to be devoted to getting more survival-based talents (though maybe I should put more priority on getting those earlier?).
I'm leaning towards the idea of dabbling in the first two links of Two Weapon Fighting by lvl 13 (I know it's pretty highly debated which is best - two weapon fighting or Dervish Dance, but I feel that adding my Dex to damage isn't as big of a deal when I'll hopefully be dealing a ton of damage with each Sap Master swing - at least on the right opponent). I might still trade out something for Two-Weapon Feint, or remove all the Two-Weapon Fighting feats for something more roleplay oriented altogether (like Skill Focuses or the like).
I'll finally have my familiar by level 14, and from there I'm not sure exactly what I'll get - but it'll probably be highly dependent on how the campaign's played out up to that point. I'm thinking a +10 to drive checks (thanks to Get Away Master) might come in handy when steering a ship. Otherwise though, the last levels will definitely the most subject to change.
Now, considering all this, I'd still love to find a way to fit an Oracle of the Waves lvl 1 dip into my build somehow. It sounds like a really nice combo with a rogue - but I'm also hesitant to slow my BAB and sneak attack progression - as well as my feat-intensive Shatter Defenses/Sap Master combo. I know there's also a type of goggles you can buy that lets you see through fog and mist, but those things are around 8,000 gp I hear?
I'm also wondering if I should be focusing more on survivability than damage output early-on (though that might be something to figure out personally during the course of play - if I'm having a lot of trouble staying alive, I may need more defenses).
On a final note, I'm also not sure if I should be devoting less focus to combat and more focus to roleplay feats (like Skill Focuses). That's something that probably also depends heavily on the rest of the party, but I'd like to know what you guys think.
Overall, you've all been a big help to me so far. Thanks again for all the advice you've given, and as always, any feedback you can give me now would be greatly appreciated.
Wow. Thanks guys! I didn't expect I'd get such great responses so quickly.
I was leaning towards the idea of getting Realistic Likeness as my Lvl 1 feat. I think I'm definitely doing that now. I've heard too much positive feedback about that one racial feat to not take it.
I think I also will go the Scout route.
I'll have to look at Wizards, Sorcerers, and Oracles of the Waves in more depth too. I'm not normally much of a magic-user, and that's why I wasn't really considering any of them before now - but I'll have to check that out.
Any thoughts on taking the dip in Mysterious Stranger though? I feel like it has potential, since if I can catch opponents flat-footed with a gun, (and if this combo works the way I think it does) I'd be hitting the bad guys at AC 10 (flat-footed + touch AC?).
First off, I feel I should note - this is my first time posting on these forums, and only my fourth month playing Pathfinder in general. I've got a decent amount of experience with RPGs, but I still find the sheer number of options in Pathfinder a bit overwhelming at times.
That typed, recently I signed on for a PF home game with some friends my brother and I met during PFS organized play. We had a party vote, and decided to do a run through the Skull & Shackles Adventure Path.
Now, since this isn't going to be "official" PFS play, the GM is letting us use some of the more exotic races, and I'm dead set on playing a Kitsune. I chose Kitsune in particular because I think the race sounds cool, and they have a pretty nifty racial rogue archetype - the Kitsune Trickster - which I want to utlize for it's awesome party face potential (you get to add your Intelligence score in ADDITION to your base stat scores on Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Disguise checks!).
Now, I also realize that Rogues aren't exactly a "strong" class option in PF. Luckily our GM realizes this too. He's house ruled the following changes:
• In addition to the standard levels, rogues gain rogue talents at 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, and 19th. This may mean they gain two rogue talents in a level.
• Rogues may take feats that modify sneak attack as rogue talents. Prerequisites must still be met.
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Factoring that into the basic level progression of a Kitsune Trickster, the level breakdown looks something like this (my apologies for any formatting issues):
With all that taken into consideration, I'm trying to make a Kitsune Trickster with a pirate theme (because, c'mon - you can't play Skull & Shackles and not be a pirate!). I want him to be a party face (because I love being a diplomancer), a skill monkey (to help fill any gaps in the party's skill spreads), but I'd also like him to be useful in combat (at least to some extent - after all, I realize I might not be as good as a Barbarian for instance, but I still want to feel like I'm contributing in the fights).
That's why I was hoping I could pick the brains of some of the more experienced players on the boards.
My main question is this - how can I optimize this character?
Which rogue talents are best (and should I take any ninja talents)?
Which feats are best (for combat, as well as role-playing encounters)?
Are the Kitsune-specific feats any good (like the tail thing)?
Should I take the Scout Archetype, or keep my Uncanny Dodge?
Any advice on class dips (for instance, I'm highly considering taking a point in Mysterious Stranger, as MS is Charisma-based and Focused Aim seems like a nice lvl 1 Deed)?
I'd also like this character to have a pet parrot of some kind - though whether the parrot will be mundane, an animal companion, or a familiar is still up in the air... Any ideas of what my best options would be for making my parrot dreams a reality?
Finally (and possibly most importantly), we'll be using a 20 point-buy system in S&S - but I'm finding it hard to decide on the best stat spread, as pretty much every stat is useful to some extent for a social rogue. Any advice on what the best stat spread would be for this character? I'm currently leaning towards the following:
STR: 10 DEX: 16 CON: 10 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 16
This would give me +3 on Dex, Int, and Cha (+6 base on my Diplomacy, Bluff, and Disguise), but it also means I'm going to be squishy, and my Wis will also suffer a bit (though I'll still have a +2 base on Sense Motive - which is respectable). I'm still not sure about this spread though. Any thoughts?
Overall, I know I might have given you guys a little too much information here, but I'm just looking for any helpful advice in general. I'm really excited to play this character, but I know that rogues tend to be on the weaker side in terms of class power - so I'm hoping you guys can help me find a way to make him work well (in combat, as well as in RP encounters).
Thanks for your time guys, and this should go without saying, but while giving advice, please don't give away any spoilers about the Skull & Shackles adventure if you can help it.
