Hi Everyone,
I'm wanting to create a backup PFS character for some online games and I want to play an iconic "tough as nails" dwarven holy warrior - a stout, bearded wall of metal and axe-weilding Torag goodness. I'm not interested in Paladin or Inquisitor for RP reasons.
Regardless of class, I plan on taking Steel Soul (feat), Glory of Old (trait), Protection (domain/blessing), and wield some sort of 2h axe at first level.
So, which of these classes best embodies the iconic dwarven holy warrior? Which one has better melee healing/support capabilities?
Great advice. Thanks!
The one thing that I'm on the fence about is the Protection the domain vs. Protection the blessing. The first give a constant bonus of +1 per 5 levels while the second is a bonus of +1 per 10 levels and needs a standard action to activate.
Personally, I'm leaning towards cleric for domain and the spells. But, the warpriest doesn't need CHA - which is very good for a dwarf.
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Warpriest is the man. You get Martial Weapon proficiency and Heavy Armor proficiency, the ability to buff yourself with swift actions, bonus combat feats that only fighters can get, and that you use your level as a qualifier for (so you get stuff like Weapon Specialization, Spellbreaker, etc.), plus a good amount of support and healing.
Plus, if you want to wield an Axe, clerics of Torag don't get proficiency with it. You might as a crusader (I don't have it in front of me atm), but that archetype is pretty bad compared to just a standard cleric or warpriest.
Crusaders also get a small list of fighter bonus feats at 1st and every five levels. Heavy armor prof, weapon focus and weapon specialization is on that list.
If i go cleric i would use a dwarven war ax. If warpriest, great ax.
I had not considered an inquisition instead of a domain.
Can a warpriest select a variant channel ability?
I forgot about stormlord. But doesn't a paladin require high charisma? How high would it need to be for a dwarf paladin?
Also, how good are warpriest at the support role? Or, are they only good as self buffers?
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Stonelord doesn't require charisma at all. It's the dwarf-only paladin archetype in the ARG.
It trades out most of the standard paladin abilities that require charisma in exchange for benefits that are more dwarven in nature that don't need charisma.
The only thing a stonelord needs CHA for is extra uses of lay on hands.
Stonelord is honestly a pretty abysmal archetype compared to normal paladin. It works okay for dwarves since they have a charisma penalty, but everything you lose makes you feel...out of place. When I played one I felt strong defensively, but had almost no offense.
The classic dwarven holy warrior is the cleric hands down. In Pathfinder, you should be worshipping Torag. And you don't necessarily need a battle axe, though you are racially proficient. Warhammers are also an iconic weapon of dwarves, which happens to be Torag's favored weapon. Of course, you can do either. As for charisma and clerics, it is only necessary if you want to use more channel energy. Which, while channel energy is nice to have it shouldn't be your mainstay of healing. That's what wands of CLW are for. Depending on your point buy, either work on having 8 or 10 charisma after the racial penalty. This will leave you with a couple channel energy uses for during the day. However, thinking that clerics actually need charisma is incorrect, its only necessary for how much you want to be able to use channel energy, and that shouldn't be your focus. Also, if you want to focus on buffing yourself and allies then you don't need to have an incredible wisdom to start with either. If your comfortable not using your spells offensively then start with around 14 wisdom and use items to increase it from there up to 20 so you can cast spells as you gain access to more spell levels. Remember, 9th level spells only require a Wisdom of 19 to cast.
For 20 point buy I suggest
STR: 16 DEX: 10 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 8, including racial adjustments.
Spend a feat on heavy armor eventually and pick up stone plate for extra dwarven awesomeness. It's plate armor, made from stone. Perfect for dwarves. You only need to increase your dex to 12 to take advantage of the max dex to AC, so you're already close. If you lower your wis to 14 you could actually start with at least 12 dex.
Well, Torag is a no-brainer :)
I was debating over the charisma bonus because I was strongly considering variant channeling - probably Bravery/Valor for the +fear/AC/charge.
If I channel in combat, do my (living) enemies also get the variant channel bonuses?
Well, Torag is a no-brainer :)
I was debating over the charisma bonus because I was strongly considering variant channeling - probably Bravery/Valor for the +fear/AC/charge.
If I channel in combat, do my (living) enemies also get the variant channel bonuses?
They would unfortunately. You would need the feat selective channel to exclude them. Only undead would not benefit if they were in the area of affect of your channel. Also remember, as the follower of a good aligned god you can only access the heal variants of channel energy. Not the harm variants.
Also, channel variants are based on deity portfolios. Not domains. Torag's portfolio is forge, protection, and strategy. You do not have access to bravery/valor variants.
Also, channel variants are based on deity portfolios. Not domains. Torag's portfolio is forge, protection, and strategy. You do not have access to bravery/valor variants.
OK. That makes sense. Of those, I like strategy the best I think. It has the most out-of-combat potential for a low CHA cleric.
At higher levels, I can see this abused:
Me - "ok everyone - let's grapple the giant!"
GM - "Alright, everyone succeeds. Grappler, that's a +20 to your roll. What!?"
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Stonelord is honestly a pretty abysmal archetype compared to normal paladin. It works okay for dwarves since they have a charisma penalty, but everything you lose makes you feel...out of place. When I played one I felt strong defensively, but had almost no offense.
I think it's a great archetype, but you have to think of it as an alternate class more than an archetype.
You lose Divine grace, but who needs it when you have Steel Soul + Glory of Old? In exchange you get heavy DR and AC bonuses.
You lose Spells, but gain Defensive Stance with stance powers.
You lose smite, but you CHA sucks, and you gain an ability that will let you bypass DR and Hardness, gain an untyped bonus to hit and damage, that is usable more times per day than smite. At level 12 it can let you attack touch ac.
Also, channel variants are based on deity portfolios. Not domains. Torag's portfolio is forge, protection, and strategy. You do not have access to bravery/valor variants.OK. That makes sense. Of those, I like strategy the best I think. It has the most out-of-combat potential for a low CHA cleric.
At higher levels, I can see this abused:
Me - "ok everyone - let's grapple the giant!"
GM - "Alright, everyone succeeds. Grappler, that's a +20 to your roll. What!?"
Sure, but keep in mind you need everyone spending their standard action to help the character successfully grapple. And, on the next turn the giant is likely to escape if the PC really needed that bonus because it doesn't persist to the next time he needs to make the grapple check to maintain. It can be useful, but the fact that your entire party has to join in and "waste" their actions balances it out.
Stonelord is honestly a pretty abysmal archetype compared to normal paladin. It works okay for dwarves since they have a charisma penalty, but everything you lose makes you feel...out of place. When I played one I felt strong defensively, but had almost no offense.
I think it's a great archetype, but you have to think of it as an alternate class more than an archetype.
You lose Divine grace, but who needs it when you have Steel Soul + Glory of Old? In exchange you get heavy DR and AC bonuses.
You lose Spells, but gain Defensive Stance with stance powers.
You lose smite, but you CHA sucks, and you gain an ability that will let you bypass DR and Hardness, gain an untyped bonus to hit and damage, that is usable more times per day than smite. At level 12 it can let you attack touch ac.
I'm not a fan of loosing spells. And, defensive stance powers don't come online till level 8.
Sure, but keep in mind you need everyone spending their standard action to help the character successfully grapple. And, on the next turn the giant is likely to escape if the PC really needed that bonus because it doesn't persist to the next time he needs to make the grapple check to maintain. It can be useful, but the fact that your entire party has to join in and "waste" their actions balances it out.Also, channel variants are based on deity portfolios. Not domains. Torag's portfolio is forge, protection, and strategy. You do not have access to bravery/valor variants.OK. That makes sense. Of those, I like strategy the best I think. It has the most out-of-combat potential for a low CHA cleric.
At higher levels, I can see this abused:
Me - "ok everyone - let's grapple the giant!"
GM - "Alright, everyone succeeds. Grappler, that's a +20 to your roll. What!?"
Sure. But, that's just a crazy example. It is more of an out of combat thing with knowledge checks or tearing down the barricaded door. Stuff like that...
Can the variant channel be "turned off" - so, if you wanted a big heal via channeling, can you decided to not give the bonus and give everyone full healing instead of 1/2 healing + bonus?
I had the same problem. I wanted a righteous dwarven rager chieftess of a sacred military order who could be a sweet, amiable and protective lady outside the battlefield, and a swearing killing machine when fighting. Cleric? Paladin? Oracle? Warpriest? / Barbarian? Bloodrager? Before the ACG she was a NG Barbarian (Armored Hulk, Elemental Kin, Drunken Rager)/Cleric (Crusader, Earth/Metal subdomain), but I wasn't entirely satisfied- mainly for alignment.
After much inner struggling I settled on LG Arcane Bloodrager (Primalist, Steelblood)/ Warpriest (Champion of the Faith, Artifice and Good blessings). I could add some homebrew to let her enhance her shield rather than her armor. I could change my mind again, but this is pretty much the closest thing to the flavor I was searching. The Warpriest is a great conversion of the 2.5E Crusader, a class I loved.
Ya. It's hard when you have a concept and the classes don't fit exactly.
The character background I am going for is: An experienced Dwarven military commander. He has been on the front lines for many decades and his superiors finally forced him to take a vacation. But, he HATES vacations so he joined Pathfinder Society for what he considers "some good, old-fashioned R&R." I plan on RPing him like an old, cranky man who refuses to enjoy his vacation.
How good are warpiests at party support casting/healing?
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How good are warpiests at party support casting/healing?
Not great. They can cast buff spells and cure spells as well as a normal cleric, but it doesn't benefit from Fervor's action economy, and you have less spells available than a cleric to do it.
Personally, I would just invest in a wand of CLW and never cast a cure spell using my slots. Perhaps a remove x, restoration, or breath of life when you can cast it, but for the most part, you should be selfish as a warpriest.
Based on your background, have you considered an Inquisitor? Dwarves make great inquisitors, and the tactics and monster knowledge options really fit with a former military commander. Not to mention the 6 skills per level is thematic for a commander. Personally, I like Sanctified Slayer and Sacred Huntmaster far more than the normal inquisitor, but any type of one works.
Inquisitor...hmmm...Is there a daily limit to Studied Target?
So, Studied Target seems to be a more versatile, "infinite use" version of Judgment. But, the scaled bonus is a bit slower. That's fine. The sneak attack damage is hit or miss for me. Too bad there isn't a teamwork feat that lets you count as flanking when adjacent to any ally...
Yes, but, Pack Flanking has Combat Expertise as a feat tax...
I'm leaning against inquisitor. I've got a rogue/oracle in another game and I don't feel the need to play another skill-focused character.
I think I need to see it all together...
Crusader Cleric:
+One Domain
+FULL Channel Energy progression
+9th level spells = 1 fewer spells/day than cleric // 1 more spells/day than warpriest
-Heavy Armor Prof OR Weapon Focus at 1st level (both at 5th)
-3/4 BAB
Warpriest
+Heavy Armor Prof AND Weapon Focus at 1st level. Bonus feats at 3rd+
+Full BAB
+Weapon/Armor bonuses
-Two blessings
-Channel Energy - slower progression than cleric. Uses fervor (meh)
-6th level spells = instant casting w/ fervor
So, when I rate the abilities, the crusader comes out ahead. Which would you suggest at 1st level: Weapon Focus or Heavy Armor Proficiency?
Right, forgot about the Warpriest BAB.
A crusader gains a bonus feat at 1st level, then again at 5th level and every five levels thereafter (to a maximum of six at 20th level). These bonus feats must be chosen from the following list: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Saving Shield, Shield Focus, Tower Shield Proficiency, and Weapon Focus*.
At 10th level, a crusader may also choose from the following feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Focus*, Improved Critical*, Shield Slam, Shield Specialization, and Weapon Specialization*.
At 20th level, a crusader may also choose from the following feats: Greater Shield Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization*. Bonus feats marked with an asterisk (*) must be applied to the favored weapon of the crusader’s deity. A crusader need not meet the normal class- or level-based prerequisites for these bonus feats.
Emphasis Mine. Which would you choose?
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A crusader need not meet the normal class- or level-based prerequisites for these bonus feats.
Emphasis Mine. Which would you choose?
Yep. Class or level-based prerequisites. BAB is not class or level-based.
If your GM is house ruling it to work, get weapon focus, you can't a afford a good suit of heavy armor for a few levels anyway.
You could play an inquisitor and not worry about the skills. Just pick skills like climb, sense motive and other dwarf like skills, maybe some profession and crafting for a dwarf. Just because you get skills doesn't mean you need to focus on it.
Warpriest seems to me to be a selfish battle cleric. Which isn't a bad thing. Also you can go believers boon (a domain) and believers hands(LoH) and extra lay on hands to really get all the divine blessings.
Ahh...duh. Thanks.
This is for PFS, so no house rules. Crusader Cleric w/ Heavy armor proficiency it is. I'm fine with that.
Thanks for the help everyone!
Can the variant channel be "turned off" - so, if you wanted a big heal via channeling, can you decided to not give the bonus and give everyone full healing instead of 1/2 healing + bonus?
Unfortunately no. If you select it you lose that healing without any option to turn off the bonus to up the healing.
1-2 fighter/x cleric. Two fantastic domains (I recommend choosing Cayden Cailean as your deity and picking the demon(under chaos) and travel domains. That gives you a nice swift action self buff and boosts your speed (one of the biggest weaknesses of dwarves). The level(s) in fighter give you proficiency and feats.
If I were to go the Fighter 1-2/Cleric X rout, what fighter or cleric archetype would you suggest?
And, Torag will be my deity - for flavor reasons.
I still think Mendevian Priest Cleric is a good choice.
This isn't a PFS game, but, we are playing with PFS rules. Is this archetype legal for organized play?
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Torag, Torag, Torag. Unfortunately, Torag's domain choices are far inferior to many of the others. This limits you on your domain abilities greatly, but I understand the desire to play the dwarf of Torag. It lends itself more to a caster but you can make it work. Cleric doesn't need an archetype in this case, but you could take your choice of fighter archetypes. I probably wouldn't use any but it's up to you ;)
Torag is great for a battle priest of any class. Ignoring domains/blessings, Defensive Strategist is the best defensive trait in the game. Blessed Hammer gives you spellstrike, and Deific Obedience gives you a +1 to hit, and Stone Strider lets you ignore a huge selection of difficult terrain.
So, taking BB's advice and looking at Mendelvian Priest. I can see some potential for a Blessed Hammer build using the free access to Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.
It would be a different kind of cleric, for sure...
BB- any suggestions on how to go about it?