Hi all,
this is regarding a past thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rl7e?Mirror-of-life-trapping-broken-released
Our barbarian broke a mirror of life trapping, which released an ancient red dragon. After much help from the community, I decided the red dragon wanted to wreak havok upon the lands, as well as, toy with the pc's and eventually demand the pc's find the wizard who trapped him in the first place for vengeance.
Well after we finished our last play session, I explained to the players that the Red dragon razed the nearby capital city of Restov. Our barbarian visited Restov, came back to our player-made city, and resigned from his government position, and demanded to be arrested for "his" crimes against the now-razed Restov. he gave away half of his gold to build an orphanage, and the rest he gave to his brother dwarf, along with his brewery. He's also wanting justice for his crime.
What do you all think would be justice ? I mean seriously, if he even suggested to our town of 40,000 (including 3000 refuges that fled to our city after the destruction of Restov) wouldn't they demand his immediate execution ? I'd hate to do that, but if the whole city demands it, we'd really have no choice.
I agree with you Mr. Pitt. He didn't INTEND for the dragon to destroy the city, and I suggested that his barbarian, and our party, gain strength, and destroy the dragon ourselves. I kind of think he wants to make a new pc, even though his current barbarian is easily 70% of our party DPS.
Reading the original thread it doesn't sound like he comes near the intent for destruction to warrant execution. He destroyed it thoughtless, perhaps he should be ordered to make right what he's done and rid the world of these dragons permanently.
IE- Execution, but it sounds nicer and relieves the guy of guilt. Because it involves taking on dragons, right? Telling people to take on dragons, particularly the ancient ones, is like telling someone to get into a fist fight with a machine gun.
Of course as a player character, he in fact has a chance. But how would the city know that exactly?
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Of course as a player character, he in fact has a chance. But how would the city know that exactly?
Guards get a special sense that allows them to detect main character status. It's how they know who they need to attack in single file rather than mob en mass.
Guards get a special sense that allows them to detect main character status. It's how they know who they need to attack in single file rather than mob en mass.Of course as a player character, he in fact has a chance. But how would the city know that exactly?
Is is also how they know that they should take a -20 to their blaster attack rolls.
In all fairness, the player who controls the barbarian is one of our best roleplayers gaming with us, and i believe is just trying to roleplay his character the way he thinks his barbarian would really feel in that situation.
Damn Boring7, I'm guessing your a real bad-ass GM yourself ! You always have so many amazing, and well thought out ideas for us ! Appreciate all the good ideas everyone. Keep them coming please !
Timebomb, it was over a 6 month period that Restov was razed, not a single day. Anient Green dragon IS back, his clone is awake now, and searching for the Red as we speak.
How about his punishment is that he has to go and slay the dragon as part of his (already sizable) penance?
Oh, and Geas/Quest spell. Putting that on him is pretty much a fundamental prerequisite for him keeping his neck, no matter what task they get assigned.
You could also do a 12 Labors of Hercules thing as well. A set of tasks that seem almost impossible tasks. Hercules had to do it in order to make up for getting possessed by Hera and killing his family (centuries old spoilers for that movie, I guess;.... I hope it is spoilers).
Except for the one that involves cleaning huge stable in an impossible time frame (he just routed a river to flood the place), all of the challenges seem appropriate for a quest since monster/villain killing/catching is involved. The Nemean lion, a hydra, the Ceryneian Hind, the Erymanthian Boar, (stables), Stymphalian Birds, the Cretan Bull, the Mares of Diomedes, taking an Amazon queen's belt, the Cattle of Geryon, taking apples guarded by a dragon (!), and cerebus.
Any of those could serve as a seed for a quest. Grabbing a nice handful of those and building up to dragon killing seems like it could work well.
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He have given away his worldly possesions. Now all he need it to get a mohawk and dye it orange.
He need to atone for what he have done and going on some sort of quest is often the way to do that. Dont think the towns folks need to do anything if you are the DM you can decide how they act.
My only problem with this, is that the players are only 11th level. Im using the kingmaker series adventures atm. I do like the idea of another arcing storyline, but all of this will introduce alot of extra experience which will put the adventurers above the cap for book 4. Id like to be able to run this side story along with book 4, withought raising them too fast to outlevel the module.
I do like the idea the party wizard, "raistlin" 10th level, who can craft wonderous items, could easily craft this lyre, maybe more than one. I'm also liking this idea of the Greater Geas spell, also finding the wizard who had put the dragon in the mirror in the first place. It's been 300-400 years though, so guessing he's either dead, or a lich atm.
+1 vote for geas to slay the dragon. You break it, you buy it. That's pretty much what the spell is for. You can worry about further punishment/restitution later if the poor schmuck survives.
I'm liking the time travel option Boring7. Perhaps even have the pc's find the Elven wizard who trapped the red dragon in the first place, after which, said wizard feels the need to help, and is able to send the pc's back in time for a limited time only, say 24 hours. This would help me with time/experience contraints in the campaign, and still let the pc's and barbarian fix the mistake made, letting them instead encase the mirror in adamantite, or even, bring the mirror back with them inside their ethreal chest to have the elven wizard take care of.
I still plan on having the barbarian be greater geas'd to take care of the problem at the beginning, giving the pc's a sense of dread to begin with. Hell, maybe the elven wizard actually hears about restov, checks out the razed town, and heads to the player's town "Ogrefall" and sees the pc's after the trial has begun. I might even have the counsel decide the barbarian is to be executed for his crime, and have the wizard join the pc's in the dungeon the night before said execution, having him use an artifact to send them back in time.
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I know I'm wading out into the deep end here but...
Does your kingdom have rule of law or anything?
If so it raises serious questions regarding legal (I'm not getting into moral) culpability here.
Based on the info I skimmed in the original thread. The barbarian wasn't precisely fully aware the mirror had multiple dragons in it, nor was he aware (since I doubt he has spellcraft ranks) that its destruction would release them (its equally likely he thought destroying it would kill all occupants, assuming he even knew there were occupants.)
Additionally, either legally or morally, its suspect to demand restitution or punishments for the actions of someone who is an independent actor and is obviously not under someone's control or duress.
If the kingdom lacks a rule of law (God help them) and relies entirely on the whim of the king/ruler it comes down entirely to how pissed off the jerk wearing the crown is.
As it seems to be implied that this guy held government position in another city, this also makes me wonder if he's nobility, or perhaps a dignitary from a foreign country.
If the PC country and the NPC country are indeed separate countries, the King's going to be spectacularly unlikely to call down a harsh sentence because of it (wars get started on stuff like that). Even if the guy surrenders his government position, he's still a foreign national and a former big shot.
If they're in the same country and he's behest to the ruler of the capital city it comes into play regarding precisely what sorts of agreements he made when he became a Government guy back in the non-razed city. As his liege lord he would have command over him, but again, nobles/leaders don't get the chop lightly. It makes other nobles (who screw up constantly as well) really nervous.
So what's likely to happen is he'll show up (dutifully contrite! My heart is warmed to see a responsible barbarian) in his appropriate hair shirt and onions and the ruler will likely go through the necessary motions demanded of him by law.
He's already forsworn his position, so he can't be taken from it. But this is where you're king/supreme executive's personality comes in.
He can decide to use the guy as a scapegoat (mark of justice, imprisonment, execution, etc), and prove he's a jerk.
Or
He can restore the individual's position as a show of his kingly mercy, and give him a mandate to fix problems in his area (as a feudal lord should).
The King shouldn't just punish the guy and ignore the problem, unless he's a moron. And having a tough guy (adventurers are tough guys) who used to look after a city, a city in a kingdom now being menaced by a dragon, needs all the tough guys he can get if he's going to restore order, appear strong, and oppose having his own position stripped by angry landholders who see the guy at the top of the feudal food chain unable to fulfill his job.
Sentence him to death, then give him a stay of execution (Dirty Dozen style) as long as he takes on certain obligations protecting the city (swearing loyalty to the ruler, or a deity, or a military order, etc.). Something like this happens in the novel Daughter of the Empire and the character has to wear a black cloth of shame around his neck as a sign of his commuted death sentence.
Sounds like he needs a good lawyer. No brain in the party willing to help out?
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Sounds like he needs a good lawyer. No brain in the party willing to help out?
The issue here seems to be more that the barbarian is seeking punishment. It didn't seek him out.
He's literally walking into a court and going 'You were all killed because of me. Do what you will.' If I'm reading OP correctly.
People generally don't want to throw the book at guys like that. Especially when no one, and I mean no one, would know he was the least bit responsible unless the PCs tattled.
Seriously, when a dragon attacks my first thought isn't 'who has been breaking mirrors.'
Again, it comes down to the cupidity of the king/ruler and whether there's a legal system. The barbarian will probably walk in and walk out scott free, or with a tap on the wrist.
If it were my guy? I'd make the guy change his name, and give him a job to go and deal with the dragon (and material support to that effect). If I'm a king, my primary interest in a dragon wrecking my holdings is stopping the dragon , punishing some stupid honest guy wouldn't be my top priority.
Some higher power in the land needs to intervene and demand justice for the razed town. Whether this be a king, wizard or God, someone needs to move the adventure in that direction. The barbarian should be forced to atone for his deeds - intentional or not. Actions have consequences. Since his deeds weren't malicious in intent, he could have a stay of execution while he pursues the dragon and rebuilds the town but even then it will take an act of true heroism to redeem himself in the eyes of the destroyed city.
This game is all about roleplaying and you have all created a scenario ripe for just that. Sometimes, heroes fall and sometimes they rise, so you all have to work that out for yourselves. Personally, I'd have an all knowing omniscient Merlin type figure appear and demand justice and offer the PC's the alternatives to execution.
I use the iconic Ezren in this role whenever I need an NPC to voice the word of God.
Ok. there is a great problem here.
You have a character that, by ignorance, caused the freedom of a terrible beast.
Such beast has caused devastation to many places, including this city.
In front of the devastation, the character has revealed his role in the freeing of this creature and now desires to be punished for it/redeem himself from it ...
I see few problems:
1) IT IS THE DRAGON THE RESPONSABILE ONE! You cannot honestly say that Bilbo Baggins is responsable for the destruction of lake town just because smaug assumed an alliance with them. Did people of lake town wanted to hung bilbo or any of the dwarfs? Nope, cause it is smaug the creature with freedom that causes destruction.
2) Law works in objective ways. What kind of crime is "unleash by mistake a sentient evil being"? Can someone actually be punished for it? If no written law is present about this situation (that, actually, could happen in a D&D world), then follow that. If the law is what the ruler commands, then follow the ruler advice. However, either the character proves that HE, somehow, unleashed the dragon, or NO ONE would never arrest him (it would otherwise became a witch hunt, with people blaming each other for the calamity)
3) The character is roleplaying something good, but the players is giving on himself too much. What could be epic is that the character makes a sacred vow to find and slay the beast, while actively helping any victim of it with all the way possible for an high level character (which includes rebuilding houses in few days, resurrect/reincarnate people and such. He should never be confined or hindered for his action, cause the crime was not made by him.
So, here what i would do: public process, with the explaining of what is happening. have npg doing their stuff and chance to prove the character innocence.
Then, while the process is still going on, another dragon fall from the sky! this is an old gold dragon, ancient enemy of the red one and interested in what is happening. After explaining to him the situation, the dragon states that, even thought by human law the character is innocent, he must still bear the consequences of his ignorance, and "weaves the sorrows" of the entire city into a magical effect that is then placed on the barbarian.
This effect is a modified geas effect that will force the character to do the things that he must do to redeem himself, but that also gives him 2 abilities:
1) a locate creature effects that allows him to track the red dragon
2) a righteous might effect that will strike on as soon as he engages combact with the beast
Done, epic and cathartic!
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2) Law works in objective ways. What kind of crime is "unleash by mistake a sentient evil being"? Can someone actually be punished for it? If no written law is present about this situation (that, actually, could happen in a D&D world), then follow that. If the law is what the ruler commands, then follow the ruler advice. However, either the character proves that HE, somehow, unleashed the dragon, or NO ONE would never arrest him (it would otherwise became a witch hunt, with people blaming each other for the calamity)
Yeah I agree with this a lot.
He's guilty of 'throwing evil magic item over a cliff.'
I don't think that's illegal anywhere.
Dude's got no moral or legal culpability here. Its nice that he's being honorable and caring and thinks he should, but like I said earlier, nobody'd even know.
In real life this sort of thing would get the cops looking at you like you were crazy.
PC: I destroyed the village!
LEO: The hell?! You're a dragon!?
PC: No, but I released him.
LEO: You sent a dragon after us? How?
PC: I accidentally let him out of a mirror.
LEO: ...the dragon was in a mirror?
PC: Yeah, I thought it was evil so I threw it over a cliff.
LEO: ...you threw it over a cliff? How did that let the dragon out? How did it fit inside?
PC: Magic.
LEO: Oh great... Did you know the dragon was inside and that'd let him out? Wouldn't that like kill him?
PC: Uh, no. Apparently not. I wanted to destroy evil. Its what I do.
LEO: A dragon just razed our town, go destroy that!
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He might have to deal with an angry mob with torches & pitchforks etc if a garbled version of the tale got out.
However - I don't think any justice system would hold him liable.
Also of note - an entire city couldn't hold off the dragon? In my own high-ish magic worlds, all mage guilds have an armory of Acid Arrow wands, and a variety of lesser metamagic rod flavors. They don't expect to use them often if ever - they're mostly a deterrent to dragons and other high SR creatures.
Dragon : "Rawarrr - I'm a dragon!!"
Mage guild of 30ish members of at least level 1 : *use wand of acid arrow of opposing element* "I don't like rampaging dragons!" *hide behind arrow slits for +8 reflex & improved evasion*
Dragon : *hit by 30ish acid arrows, taking 200+ damage* "Run away!" *next round hit by 200+ damage again resulting in death*
Of note - even a red Great Wyrm would die if hit by 30 cold energy 'acid arrow' spells assuming average damage rolls. (5 damage for two rounds each with +50% for vulnerability averages to 450 damage, while a Great Wyrm has 449hp - without the metamagic rods it'd take 45 acid arrows) And he's not hard to hit - with a touch AC of 0. And it also doesn't include any other damage they might take. (Like from higher level casters at the mage guild.)
Dealing with crap like that is what I figure is the main reason that cities put up with having a mage guild around.
And that doesn't include any and all extra damage a city can throw out.
Frankly - I just don't think a big dragon would have as easy of a time destroying a city as many people think.
It sounds like the player is already playing the character as taking the relese of the dragon very hard. I dont think you need to take any thing away from him by letting the game World punish him. The glass was broken and the dragon is out, let him, and the rest of the party, decide how to deal with it. If laws in the land hold the PC responsible for the dragon, because he broke the mirror, then most likely every body that was with him is held responsible as well.
I suggest you let the player play this out, he Sound like he is doing just fine without random Geas spells put on him by guys that should have killed the dragon instead of playing local Elminsters.
And if this is about punishment the player( and it dosent Sound like it) Then remember who put the mirror there and neglectet to inform him about its content.;)
All amazing points guys. will take heart to all that has been advised.
Running this in 30 minutes. wish me luck.
Charon's little helper,
You make valid points of argument. I was thinking about having the ruling family of restov, the Swordlords (who secretly defy the Rule of King Noleski Surtova) actually made a deal with the dragon, took all of the capable wizards, and swordlords with them when they fled the city secretly before the onslaught of the mighty red dragon, taking any chance the city had to defend itself effectively, and placing blame on the pc's for the deaths of Restov's remaining citizens, therefore, putting the blame back to The king for failing to protect southern Brevoy with his capable party (our pc's) and Ogrefall. (pc's new capital city)
I've also decided to have King Surtova's Immense spy network discover the traitors, bring them in after the trial of the Barbarian Lornel, and have his royal guards execute the royal family of Jamondi Aldori by vorpal decapitation in front of his court, thereby destroying his most annoying opposing faction, as well as, giving justice to the City of restov in one fell swoop.
This will also allow the barbarian some respite, and let the party realize 1.) don't mess with King Surtova
2.) It wasn't just their faults, but a coordinated effort by the Swordlords of Restov, and the red dragon.
All of this will effectively let me get the players back on the right track without getting them tons of extra exp, and taking too much time away from the main campaign.
JoeJ,
It actually went quite well. I had the players summoned to Port Ice, King Surtova held court, we role-played out the proceedings, the Oracle-duchess of OgreFall acted as Lornel's council, we brought up witnesses. The treachery was brought out into the open, the king declared the magister put a geas on lornel to end the threat of the dragon, had his royal guards execute the swordlords and wizards. The pc's then had to work on a ritual for 10 days to use the occulous's power, with the help of 7 other wizards, 5 priests. Then pc's were able to travel back in time for a very limited amount of time, immediately beset upon by a mythic Time-Roc who they had to defeat. Afterwords the pc's found the mirror of life trapping, the wizard opened up 200 feet up solid stone with stoneshape, deposited said mirror, was pulled back to the present by the power of the artifact, and walah ! red dragon threat taken care of, lornel's geas disappeared, Restov was never truly destroyed, and the players still have something to look forward to late game in order to prove the swordlord's plot against the king.
I never wanted it to be a whole adventure in itself. It worked out to about 4 hours of role-playing, tied it all up in a neat bow. Pc's recieved about 10k exp each, and now they feel satisfied, and are able to continue on with book 4 of Kingsmaker, without a hitch :)
Pc's were all pleased, and said they enjoyed how it ended up.