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Actually, all Kineticist go DEX instead of STR from level 1. If you're going to go Melee, you pick up Combat Casting instead of Point Blank, and Weapon Finesse instead of Precise shot.
Fair enough, though you wouldn't be able to use non-light one-handed melee weapons created through kinetic blade. (Which doesn't seem to have any game impact right now, but I imagine might change when they rewrite the power, as seems inevitable).
I also agree that the expanded elements are quite boring. With the exception of fire (whose main distinction is "Twice as much"), all of them are basically identical 1d6+1+1d6 blasts.
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Personally I would prefer if Expanded Element was a class feature at 7th level then a Wild Talent at 15th. It would also solve the disjointedness problem Shaka noted about composite blasts.
Agreed,
They need a power spike around that level.
I have been thinking about the "Burn" mechanic, and while I have not played with the class yet.
I quite like the concept and really drives home the flavor of the class.
What I can see that brings the cost of the burn down is instead of scaling it off the users Hit Dice/Character level that it does currently, instead scale it off the user Con Mod, now to stop this from scaling to a degree greater than it does currently max out the cost equal to the users Hit Dice/Character Level, this means a level 1 character is not shafted by the Burn cost for having like a +4 mod.
Now to offset this you keep the part where you cannot spend more burn than your con mod, meaning you can't "burn" if you have no Con Mod.
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Also while people have been talking about the utility of the class, more will not go amiss (Add my voice to the 4+Int Skill ranks), a few things I want to discuss is the Concentration and maximum burn that can be spent in a round. To me this feels like unneeded book keeping and restriction on the class, like it feels very much like a class that can "nova" very well and I think that too a degree you should allow it.
Another thing that bugs me is that new options become available to the Kineticist at levels 1, 6, 10 and 16. Which to me feels kind of odd and off balance, why not something more linear like 1, 5, 10 & 15?
The other thing is the concentration checks, for a designated blaster whom is designed for combat this feels very odd that the class has no way to address this, and too be honest I don't see what exactly it adds to the class, the AoO you will be provoking (Assuming not using the Kinetic Blade etc.) will be hard enough as it is on the Kineticist. Also the whole spell level of abilities does not help make things easy on the player. I feel you can make the class more interesting through giving it a variety of ways to interact with the battlefield.
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Also a note on the Kinetic blade the "...for telekineticists, you transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand." is very awkward as having something in the off hand means you cant also spend move actions to reduce the burn cost of abilities as it requires to have both hands free, also having the specific restriction for a single "element" like that is just a terrible idea, even if it makes flavor sense, as it any new elements are introduced that should have this restriction for flavor you can't exactly errata it every time, and also it does not really add anything outside of text to the ability.
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I second the idea of having a free infusion and a free utility power at first level.
I've been thinking of the purpose of forbidding the use of gather power on non-infusion talents. It seems needed to prevent overuse of the healing talent and similar ones.
I propose this: the first healing on a creature in 24h period is free, and each subsequent use on the same creature has an increasing cost of 1 burn, as the body reaches its limits to heal. That way, we could use gather power for all talents, and the ones that should be restricted could follow the same mechanic.
About burn: I am not against the burn mechanic, as it can provide very interesting roleplaying. I only think it the class should have a safe reserve before tapping on its life power. A reserve of 1/2 level + Con bonus should do the trick, as it would represent the training and advancement of the kineticist at channeling his power.
I second the idea of having a free infusion and a free utility power at first level.
I've been thinking of the purpose of forbidding the use of gather power on non-infusion talents. It seems needed to prevent overuse of the healing talent and similar ones.
I propose this: the first healing on a creature in 24h period is free, and each subsequent use on the same creature has an increasing cost of 1 burn, as the body reaches its limits to heal. That way, we could use gather power for all talents, and the ones that should be restricted could follow the same mechanic.About burn: I am not against the burn mechanic, as it can provide very interesting roleplaying. I only think it the class should have a safe reserve before tapping on its life power. A reserve of 1/2 level + Con bonus should do the trick, as it would represent the training and advancement of the kineticist at channeling his power.
Possible, then we are looking at the Kineticist having a Fighter chassis, powerful straight out the gates.
Keeping the Kineticist with a Wizard chassis: a free infusion and free utility power at 3rd level?
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Possible, then we are looking at the Kineticist having a Fighter chassis, powerful straight out the gates.
Keeping the Kineticist with a Wizard chassis: a free infusion and free utility power at 3rd level?
Giving it at first level isn't that problematical - unlike a fighter, dipping into Kineticist for one level really doesn't buy you anything. The infusions don't stack with class abilities from any other class, and the 1st level utility powers are all pretty weak (for example, the best option for Water is a down-powered version of grease). Fighters, by contrast, can be dipped into by any melee class that needs a fast feat or two and/or proficiencies.
I only suggested the notion because at 1st level, you're literally a one-trick pony if you take an infusion as your first level Wild Talent. Which is incredibly boring to play. And you can't even take feats, like most classes can, to boost your options. Improved Trip, Rapid Shot, etc. - none of those options work with the Kineticists' abilities.
I just finished reading through the whole thread after I made my post, (so I wouldn't be influenced by the thoughts of others). The best idea I saw in the whole thread would be to give elemental manipulation to all the kineticists for free. Maybe at 2nd level give all of them kinetic barrier, at 4th their respective move element (a 5' cube of material per round, or a dust cloud for Air), at 6th control water/pyrotechnics/etc, 8th elemental resistance, something like that.
In other words, I think they should have more options in combat than hitting one button called "BLAST" over and over. Being able to dynamically throw up weak barriers or occlude squares of terrain would be pretty simple to implement, really neat, and lead to interesting combat options for them.
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Here's one more I just thought up as I'm prepping a character to start playtesting it later today at PFS...
Telekinetic Haul - can this be used on a willing creature as well as an object? If not, I perhaps forsee my PC saying "sit on top of that block of stone and hold on tight" before lifting it up (with another PC on top of it) and telekinetically moving it (plus passenger) wherever desired.
(I've got my PC almost 100% figured out including a fun RP/backstory - just trying to debate on Telekinetic Haul vs Foe Throw, 1-2 feats, traits, and then he's done!)
Thinking about the class concept:
The kineticist uses constitution to manifest his powers and dexterity to aim them right. This means that a kineticist maight be as dumb as a rock and he will still have the same powers. His intellect, awareness and confidence play no part in his development. Therefore we can understand that the advancement in this class is a result from physical training, as the kineticist expand his body's capacity.
Based on this concept, one might ask "how is this done?". We have actually several real world examples that fit he occult theme of the book. Yogis have been known to train their bodies to extremes, some kung fu traditions can produce heat from their hands, monastic orders engage in weird diets and physical exercise in hopes of achieving supernatural feats.
The concept fits like a glove with martial traditions, but the class has yet to back that with features. That kind of body training would not produce a body with medium resistance (d8 HD), or lack of familiarity with with combat (weapon proficiencies) and physical activities (climb, swim, acrobatics). Clearly there is an effort to distantiate the class from the Qinggong Monk and the Monk of Four Winds, and really every class should feel unique.
I would guess that the current idea is to provide those options in archetypes, as it has been done before. However, I think that the base class should also feel complete an coherent with a concept. Would suggest then, the following:
1- Give this class a higher HD. It would represent the hard training that is needed to master its own body;
2- Give the class the option to chose a martial tradition, a combat style is a good way, as suggested in a previous post;
3- Give the class training in physical skills ans well as in one knowledge, representing the mystical tradition that it may follow or study to understand its powers;
4- Meditation and rigorous training provide clarity and peace of mind. The Still Mind monk class feature would fit well, reducing the vulnerability the class suffers.
Are all blasts subject to SR or just the energy based ones?
My player has just made Azula (he called her Azura -- dang, now I just have to put in the Annoying Fan.)
We played for about an hour and then we had to head to bed. I tried to create a combat encounter, but the enemy got everyone scared on an Intimidate roll. So, the Kineticist hasn't been playtested by my group yet.
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That depends on the gear slot.
My *Insert Martial here* isn't required to throw away his Ring of Protection to get his enhancement bonus to attack and damage.
My *Insert caster here* isn't required to throw away his Cloak of Resistance to use his Metamagic Rod.
My Monk or Brawler shouldn't need to throw away his Amulet of Natural Armor to buy an enhancement bonus for his unarmed strikes that's twice as expensive as a weapon thus becoming a double handicap.
My Kineticist should not have to make the same handicapping decision that a Monk needs to.
I posted an idea for Kinetic Bracers earlier in the thread. Bracers are an item slot most people don't stress over and are thematically appropriate.
Are all blasts subject to SR or just the energy based ones?
I think touch attack blasts are subject to SR, whereas normal ranged blasts aren't
Peter
Edit: 3 more things
1) Are kinetic blades a free action as part of a full attack/attack option? (i've seen the post, I just can't remember where it is) Then you wouldn't have to make a concentration check to use them (per swift-spell rules) correct?
1b) Also, since kinetic blades are part of a full attack/attack action you can use the vital strike tree for attacking just once, correct?
2) A quick observation: Blasts are Spell-like abilities, so per the FAQ on Vital Strike, you cannot use vital strike on blasts.
Peter
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A few things about this class...
First, I really love the idea behind it! It's awesome and amazing and feels like a really great "artillery" class.
Second, I'm in agreement with everyone else about the 4+Int skill points. Also, why not just give them all Knowledge: Nature and change that bonus skill to something else. As it is, they don't get any knowledges for free, across the board.
Third, why not give an infusion like Holy Water/Flame/Sacred Ground/etc that lets them overcome alignment based DR?
Lastly, It seems to me that a golem would shut these guys down completely. At least with a wizard/cleric/sorceror/etc, they have other versatility with things like shaping the battlefield/buffing their allies/etc.
So I may have missed this in the ten pages of discussion, but a line about the Aether blast leaves me with a question.
Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist’s blast damage.
If the object is a special material, does it still count against DR?
Already been asked and answered
:(
Peter
What trade off is there between the physical blasts and the energy blasts? What action are they?
Ah, so physical blasts do Xd6 + X + Con modifier whereas energy blasts do Xd6 + 1/2 Con modifier where X equals the number of odd levels you have.
The fact that they never get any better at taking burn is a little strange. Would it be off base if they got an ability around level six that reduced burn by their con modifier? I realize that would throw off your spreadsheet, but I feel like it makes sense that the act of taking burn should become something a kineticist gets better at.
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I couldn't find whatever arguments led to kinetic blade being limited to one attack per round, but I hope you'll reconsider. I'm very definitely a melee guy, and was super excited about the kineticist kinetic blade build I've been working on, but now I'm a little perplexed.
It seemed to me before that the point of the ability was to trade range and mobility for an increase in damage by allowing multiple blasts on a full attack. What exactly is the point of allowing it to work with a full attack if it takes up a hand but doesn't allow multiple attacks? Two-weapon fighting? That seems to be the only way to utilize it with the current errata, which is a huge feat tax for an infusion that is mostly downside on paper and comes with a burn cost. Especially, since that burn cost is harder to mitigate when you need to get to a creature and then spend full-round actions to damage it.
If the concern is that two or three melee attacks at full blast damage is too high, I'm sure some sort of compromise can be made for full attacks. Maybe each attack per round does half the damage of the previous one or something? I just think allowing this power only once per round with full attacks doesn't make any sense.
Sigh... The Kineticist doesn't get better at taking burn because the Kineticist gets better at using her class features without taking burn.
This is starting to get frustrating. Don't freaking post until you understand how Infusion Specialization works, all right?
The fact that they never get any better at taking burn is a little strange. Would it be off base if they got an ability around level six that reduced burn by their con modifier? I realize that would throw off your spreadsheet, but I feel like it makes sense that the act of taking burn should become something a kineticist gets better at.Infusion Specialization.
I know that specialization is a thing, but that doesn't make you better at taking burn, it just makes you better at avoiding it if you catch my meaning. Just strange how a high level character gets their clock cleaned when a first level character gets a light tap on the cheek.
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4) Kinetic Blade/Fist/Whip right now are traps. You'll provoke AOOs every time you use them, and since your blasts scale in power as fast as you gain bonuses to concentration checks, you'll never be able to tap the rolls to cast defensively. They also don't seem to be the basis for a build until at least 5th level (when you can reduce form infusion burn cost by 1), and really not until 8th level (when you get a second attack from BAB). This is a problem since you have to pick your stats at 1st level - if you go high STR to be a melee kineticist, you're going to suck compared to a DEX kineticist until 8th level. If you go DEX kineticist, you're going to suck compared to a STR kineticist after 8th level (since ranged kineticists get no means to full attack). And STR kineticists only get STR to hit - they still use CON to damage. Going STR/DEX/CON is too multiple attribute dependent.The defensive check is d20+Con mod+caster level vs. 15+2xspell level. Spell level scales exactly with Caster Level, so presuming you put some emphasis into your Con mod as you level, the concentration checks actually get easier. First level, with a Con of 18 you're looking at d20+5 vs. 17, so you're more likely to fail than not. 20th level, assuming you put +2 into Con from leveling (as Dex is important too), have a +6 belt, and read a book for +4, you're looking at d20+20+10 vs. 15+18=33. 10% chance to fail, so pretty rare. Add in an Otherworldly Kimono and it's literally impossible to fail.
Weapon Finesse solves the MAD issues. You should pretty much stay out of melee until 5th though, yes.
Mark didn't exactly answer whether or not it's a free action here but he didn't deny that it was either...
If it is, then wouldn't this apply:
Attacks of Opportunity: Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the spell's level) or lose the spell.
Peter
I couldn't find whatever arguments led to kinetic blade being limited to one attack per round, but I hope you'll reconsider. I'm very definitely a melee guy, and was super excited about the kineticist kinetic blade build I've been working on, but now I'm a little perplexed.
It seemed to me before that the point of the ability was to trade range and mobility for an increase in damage by allowing multiple blasts on a full attack. What exactly is the point of allowing it to work with a full attack if it takes up a hand but doesn't allow multiple attacks? Two-weapon fighting? That seems to be the only way to utilize it with the current errata, which is a huge feat tax for an infusion that is mostly downside on paper and comes with a burn cost. Especially, since that burn cost is harder to mitigate when you need to get to a creature and then spend full-round actions to damage it.
If the concern is that two or three melee attacks at full blast damage is too high, I'm sure some sort of compromise can be made for full attacks. Maybe each attack per round does half the damage of the previous one or something? I just think allowing this power only once per round with full attacks doesn't make any sense.
You can full attack for multiple attacks.
*cough* Mark! Could you say whether or not kinetic blades is a free action/swift action, so we have a link we can point to?*cough*
You can full attack for multiple attacks.I couldn't find whatever arguments led to kinetic blade being limited to one attack per round, but I hope you'll reconsider. I'm very definitely a melee guy, and was super excited about the kineticist kinetic blade build I've been working on, but now I'm a little perplexed.
It seemed to me before that the point of the ability was to trade range and mobility for an increase in damage by allowing multiple blasts on a full attack. What exactly is the point of allowing it to work with a full attack if it takes up a hand but doesn't allow multiple attacks? Two-weapon fighting? That seems to be the only way to utilize it with the current errata, which is a huge feat tax for an infusion that is mostly downside on paper and comes with a burn cost. Especially, since that burn cost is harder to mitigate when you need to get to a creature and then spend full-round actions to damage it.
If the concern is that two or three melee attacks at full blast damage is too high, I'm sure some sort of compromise can be made for full attacks. Maybe each attack per round does half the damage of the previous one or something? I just think allowing this power only once per round with full attacks doesn't make any sense.
Does it provoke an AoO if you use Kinetic Blade without casting defensively? I'm about 80% sure you said no earlier in the thread but it's so big at this point it'd be a massive pain to go back and check, heheh. This would be a great thing to put in the OP either way.
While that is all true, I don't see how it mitigates burn beyond spending as many resources as possible on hit points. I guess I'll just have to focus on not using burn.
While that is all true, I don't see how it mitigates burn beyond spending as many resources as possible on hit points. I guess I'll just have to focus on not using burn.
That is exactly what you're supposed to do. I built a 14th level Geokineticist last night that uses a whopping zero burn on all of her wild talents. She only has to use burn when she's using Quicken SLA metamagic or Sandstorm Blast.
Speaking of which, I'd like to issue a related criticism to Feel the Burn. Now that I've taken a better look at Kineticist play I can say that it is very wrong for the Kineticist to rely on this class feature to keep up with the full BAB classes. The fact that you're only supposed to expend burn to nova is a strong argument for the Kineticist to have full BAB; otherwise, I have to find an excuse to expend burn earlier in the day and chop off 56 points of health just to have the same attack bonus as a Warrior. Feel the Burn as an extra bonus to keep up with Studied Target/Weapon Training etc. would be far more reasonable.
You don't loose your skills when you cast your highest level spells I guess.
Im still not liking how some elements don't really blend well with composite blasts. Aether in particular seems hosed in this regard given it doesn't mix with ANY elements and its limited in forms and shapes it can make. So it almost forces you to take another element which you get no mixed blast options. and then at 15th you can either FINALLY get a composite blast by either picking yet ANOTHER element to gain a composite blast with maximum damage potential (and since we can all agree damage is this class's focus) or I can take my own Element for some blasts that work ok (The boost is nice) but I don't hit maximum potential damage. The telekinetic stuff is nifty and all but it doesn't compensate for loosing so much flexibility Throw foe is nice ( I can beat a F%%*&^ with another F^%^&% ! XD ) but its a lot easier to negate then preferred.
Just pointing out that if your taking burn at higher levels to benefit from feel the burn, you end up with the same hit point modifiers as everyone else, which means your investment in con only benefits you for fort saves, which are already strong. I would feel a little better about it if fort was their weak save. At least their modifier would be more important.
The fact that they never get any better at taking burn is a little strange. Would it be off base if they got an ability around level six that reduced burn by their con modifier? I realize that would throw off your spreadsheet, but I feel like it makes sense that the act of taking burn should become something a kineticist gets better at.
Blasted Windows, and that stupid :( saying something is wrong with my computer and needs to restart. But don't worry! Windows is gathering information!
Doesn't help it deleted my document I was typing a post up and then didn't remember the blasted thing >:|
Gotta do it all over again *grumble, grumble, grumble*
I'm going to run some numbers to see how well the Kineticist handles burn over time. Primarily, he does this by minimizing the Burn he's got, but I'm interested in seeing how well he handles the burn when the burn is unavoidable. I will do this by making 4 charts that will have a difference in each one.
Chart 1 will be a Kineticist with starting Con 10, no bonus hp, no additional con bonus either. Using average hp (4.5, max on level 1), I will measure what percent of his maximum burn damage is of his maximum hp.
Chart 2 will be starting Con 10, all ability score increases go to con, and a Belt of Con at level 5, upgrading at level 10 and 15.
Chart 3 will be the same as Chart 2, but with Toughness and FCB going to bonus hp.
Chart 4 will be like Chart 3, but it will have no increase in Con modifier from Chart 2.
Level 5 = 26 hp, burn 3, damage 15; ~57.69% of max hp
Level 10 = 48 hp, burn 3, damage 20; ~41.6% of max hp
Level 15 = 71 hp, burn 3, damage 45; ~63.38% of max hp
Level 20 = 93 hp, burn 3, damage 60; ~64.51% of max hp
Con 13/Level 5 = 31 hp, burn 4, damage 20; 64.51~% of max hp
Con 16/Level 10 = 78 hp, burn 6, damage 60; ~76.92% of max hp
Con 19/Level 15 = 131 hp, burn 7, damage 105; ~80.15% of max hp
Con 21/Level 20 = 193 hp, burn 8, damage 160; ~82.9% of max hp
Bonus hp 10/Level 5 = 41 hp, burn 4, damage 20; ~48.78% of max hp
Bonus hp 20/Level 10 = 98 hp, burn 6, damage 60; ~61.22% of max hp
Bonus hp 30/Level 15 = 161 hp, burn 7, damage 105; ~65.21% of max hp
Bonus hp 40/Level 20 = 233 hp, burn 8, damage 160; ~68.66% of max hp
Bonus hp 10/Level 5 = 36 hp, burn 3, damage 15; ~41.66% of max hp
Bonus hp 20/Level 10 = 68 hp, burn 3, damage 30; ~44.11% of max hp
Bonus hp 30/Level 15 = 91 hp, burn 3, damage 45; ~49.45% of max hp
Bonus hp 40/Level 20 = 133hp, burn 3, damage 60; ~45.11% of max hp
Okay, wow, this tells a really interesting tale. Turns out, the best way to handle the inevitable burn you get as a kineticist is by not increasing your con bonus. Seek out all the bonus HP you can, but do it without increasing your con bonus beyond your start, because you will become less and less efficient at handling the burn. Even with only bonus HP, you still lose efficiency, just not as much as when you increase your Con bonus.
Mark, I have to say, is this intentional? By 20th level in charts 1, 2, and 3, your ability to handle the burn damage has been reduced by 50% or more! That seems kind of odd that, as you increase in levels, your ability to withstand damage is reduced. I know the key to handling 'The Burn' is by reducing incoming burn through Infusion Specialization and other things, but there are some things you can't reduce the burn for (like Kinetic Healer).
Really interesting little number crunching here (beyond Windows being an Asshat and letting Cosmo get inside!). If I made any math errors, or my method is faulty, please point it out.