Goblin Squad Member
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A question about Auction Houses and Early Enrollment.
I recall that there was an idea about keeping the content of the Auction House at the end of the Alpha stage as a seed of the market during Early Enrollment. As I have only recently returned to these forums after a long absence, it has been finalized?
Or the AH will be empty at the start of EE?
The AH not being empty would have the same effect as an npc you can buy gear from - albeit for a limited time. I can't see this being a thing, as it essentially devalues the rush to get crafting chains going.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree Fiery.
That was my doubt. If the AH persist and I have a good chance to be one of the first guy on the server I would put on market my stuff at the end of the Alpha, then rush to get a short bow and far shot and start farming goblins for the money to buy everything that is on the market.
Who is fast enough would get gear that is 1-3 weeks or more ahead of the other guys, who is too slow get nothing. Probably it would even out after a time, but it can be significant advantages during the first weeks of the game, enough to guarantee some guild a better starting position.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game needs a clean wipe to start well.
The biggest hurdle to getting gear is finding an organization. The beginning is going to be rough. Solo is always going to be rough, so beginning solo is going to be extremely rough.
I don't expect the AHs to see a ton of action until after the WoT, as most organizations are going to be crafting their own items, and/or trading bulk with other organizations. Until people need coin for upkeep type things, and coin has a stable market value, there is not a lot of incentive to put things up.
Backdating xp is proof that GW does not want to create a 'launch rush' pre-loading the AH will create a 'launch rush'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really get a post-apocalyptic feel of this. We will be like the cockroaches crawling out of our nooks and crannies and begin to grow a new civilisation!
The first choices of my role will depepend a lot on the drop of crafting recipes if there isn't a very well organised crafting group in what ever neighbourhood I drop in...
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Except the players, I hope!!!!!
Or is this going to be like one of those Japanese horror movies but instead of a girl coming out of our TV sets, we will have hoards of goblins jumping out of our computer screens to kill us and eat us?
Nothing survives! ಠ_ಠ
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Tangential...
I'm still in favor of NPC shops that sell the most basic of Tier 1 +0 starter gear. The stuff we currently farm off goblins in front of starter towns. Allowing players to exchange coin into a money sink if the RNG of them and other players don't provide what they need as STARTING GEAR.
The power in crafting comes from making reliable acces to Tier 2 or Upgraded items.
Since the infinite goblin farm for Tier 1 +0 there should be an NPC shop option. Its a defense against the vagaries of RNG. I'm not saying Tier 1 +0 NPC Starter items should be cheap, certainly there should be plenty of room to be under cut at the AH.
This does several practical things
1) Gives new players without friend support a path to Role specific gear they need without being RNGed out of it.
2) Shows new players what is considered "essential" equipment. (Which is much less than you'd think coming in from other MMOs or PnP background)
3) Gives new players a reason to check the auction house for lower prices.
4) Prevents monopolistic lockouts on basic "starter" equipment. (An indvidual or group buying out all 1cp or other cheap AH listings and increasing the cost.)
5) Creates an early game money sink where new players get used to the idea of the cycle: dying and buying replacement gear.
An NPC shop does no more damage to the Player side crafting economy than the infinite goblins do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An NPC shop does no more damage to the Player side crafting economy than the infinite goblins do.
Opposed. Entirely player driven economy means just that. It will interfere further pricing and with the auction houses of groups that have chosen to devote to that path.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't expect the AHs to see a ton of action until after the WoT, as most organizations are going to be crafting their own items, and/or trading bulk with other organizations. Until people need coin for upkeep type things, and coin has a stable market value, there is not a lot of incentive to put things up.
To be specific, most organized organizations will be crafting their own items. If Alpha has been anything to go by, those of us on the Chaotic end of the spectrum might be spending a lot of time crafting individually. If so, we'll need the Auction Houses to move raw mats to refiners, and refined components to crafters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kaos rulez!
I think we will find out why chaos don't rule the world, despite all cool powers ....
That aside I think the scrabble in the beginning will be mighty fun to watch an participate in! It will be interesting to se how it becomes and in what state the world will be at OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Chaos has its advantages, but so does Law. Getting a group organized to supply itself with weapons and armor is one of the big perks of Law. The advantages of Chaos will probably show up a little later, when the most Lawful organizations start to calcify and become brittle.
(But yeah, All Hail Discordia! And Zog!)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Opposed. Entirely player driven economy means just that. It will interfere further pricing and with the auction houses of groups that have chosen to devote to that path.
An NPC shop, for very specifically basic necessary Tier 1 +0 weapons would be no more disruptive to the parts of the player crafting/farming economy that is actually important than the current infinite goblin farm is.
As I pointed out that exact gear is farmed at road-bump goblins in front of every starter NPC settlement. The Tier 1 +0 starter weapons are REQUIRED to fight in PFO.
Even in Alpha right now they are getting dumped into the AHs at 1 CP per item. Even things with complex multi-ranked crafting requirements. There is no functional player driven market for Tier 1 +0 Weapons. There may as well be an NPC shop for these items (at something above 1 CP values) so RNGesus doesn't sucker punch new players out of the game before they start.
Even the current advice being given to people getting in pre-EE is to "farm the goblins until it drops". This means generating exactly what an NPC shop would be selling, that the player doesn't want/need. All of which will just be dumped into the local AH at 1 cp or given out for free.
The part of the market that is important is anything Tier 2 and up, or with Upgrades +1 and up. I am NOT suggesting that those be NPC store buy-able.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TLDR: There is no way to realistically equate what is happening today with what will happen in EE. The current glut of T1 items is temporary.
The existing structure of goods in the Auction houses is an artifact of goods that are temporary. I have dumped hundreds of things myself in order to make things easier for others to test. That will not happen when our settlements' existence depends on whatever advantage we can get.
Once encumbrance and manual-looting is in play, which will be soon, there will be little use harvesting goblins for T1 goods so that you have to run back to the bank every half hour to unload stuff that is essentially worthless. Most of the T1 weapons and implements in question will be abandoned to vanish with the corpses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The auction houses have seen little use from many people, because of the difficult way they are currently set up. Yet, I've seen plenty of messages from people like TEO offering free gear to beginners, however, and I expect that to be the case as well once EE starts. In fact, once the economy has gotten started, I wouldn't be surprised if the starter-town goblins quickly disappear.
Beginner gear will be easily made by player crafters who have been in game for a week or so. And many companies will be willing to provide a little start-up help for newbies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The existing structure of goods in the Auction houses is an artifact of goods that are temporary. I have dumped hundreds of things myself in order to make things easier for others to test. That will not happen when our settlements' existence depends on whatever advantage we can get.Once encumbrance and manual-looting is in play, which will be soon, there will be little use harvesting goblins for T1 goods so that you have to run back to the bank every half hour to unload stuff that is essentially worthless. Most of the T1 weapons and implements in question will be abandoned to vanish with the corpses.
Low-tier goods will only give advantage for the first time (expecting to see gobs being farmed 24/7 on the first week), afterwards it will become trash drops. And yes, generally it won't be picked up much - but, if this gear appears on AH, where would it come from? Mats for crafting this gear will always cost more than the gear itself, cause they are harder to obtain, so if there will a player-made t1+0 economy, it will be based purely on goblins farm - could as well come from npcs or just be given for free - at least until gobs are tweaked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think +0 goods should be viewed as apprentice crafting, nothing to actually bother with after the first few weeks of play. Depending on how the influx of players to game will work, there is so many different ways it may go. But the sub +2 items will never be central for the crafting communities, but I can see the use of a bit of crafting skill to make your own longbow when in hostile/empty country!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Caldeathe Baequiannia
I have seen none of those "hundreds of items". So far all I have seen in the AH was 1 piece of heavy armor.
The things I've put in (currentll) are all at Alderwag, and are all crafting related. One thing to be aware of is that all listings expire after two days, so if you are off for 48 hours or more, or if the items sell quickly, you won't see some things.
My T1 armour and implements have been given away to anyone that wanted them, and will continue to be throughout alpha because we have been invited there to test the system, not "win" anything.
My comment about quantities was based on someone else's claim that people would farm goblins and put low tier gear on the AH, not based on anything I've done or seen. I've never shopped the AH. Ever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once encumbrance and manual-looting is in play, which will be soon, there will be little use harvesting goblins for T1 goods so that you have to run back to the bank every half hour to unload stuff that is essentially worthless. Most of the T1 weapons and implements in question will be abandoned to vanish with the corpses.
Two things.
1. It's my understanding that auto-loot in PvE isn't going away, at least not any time soon.
2. Because those mobs have a chance to drop Expendables, I think they'll be farmed forever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People will always farm whatever they can, but most people looking for expendables aren't going to collect short bows and long swords to sell in the auction house. If they hang on to them, it will be because they are useful to their settlement, not to get a copper or three.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I keep hearing comments that make me think the auction houses won't be the centres of commerce they appear in other games, as many folks seem to plan simply to pool their...everything...into Company or Settlement banking, at least until something-or-other happens. I've not yet heard anyone speculate on a solid end-date for the hoarding, given the number of unknowns.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a feeling that the largest problem that AHs will have (getting started) will be the distance they are from some places. Once I can reliably see what a distant AH has for sale, I will travel there to get it. I am unlikely to "browse" AHs for deals, etc... if I have to travel to each one to check.
Alts can solve some of this, but are inefficient before the markets really get busy.
The death of general and a lack of a system wide trade channel will not help that either. I am fine with general not being a commercial channel.
Edit: If you really want to make the economy important, greatly reduce tier 1 +0 drops and make them durability 5. Let the players be the most reliable source of gear at all levels.
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I keep hearing comments that make me think the auction houses won't be the centres of commerce they appear in other games, as many folks seem to plan simply to pool their...everything...into Company or Settlement banking, at least until something-or-other happens. I've not yet heard anyone speculate on a solid end-date for the hoarding, given the number of unknowns.
As soon as the Auction House interface is easier to use, it will be more convenient to use it, and thus used more often methinks.
I suspect the collectivists will slowly stop being the main source for gear when it ends up being faster and more efficient for individuals to just sell their junk on the AH and buy what they need on the AH.
But again, that is all mainly dependent on GW making the AH experience a good one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The inability to see what is on sale in one category of items (unless I am mistaken), make the AH practically useless.
Having the ability to set a filter for tier 1 weapons and seeing all the available tier one weapon is a thing, having to click in sequence on stave model X +0, then stave model X +1, then stave model Y +0, then ... while waiting for the market to refresh is horrible. and slow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The inability to see what is on sale in one category of items (unless I am mistaken), make the AH practically useless.
Having the ability to set a filter for tier 1 weapons and seeing all the available tier one weapon is a thing, having to click in sequence on stave model X +0, then stave model X +1, then stave model Y +0, then ... while waiting for the market to refresh is horrible. and slow.
You could buy and sell on the current AH and I made about 10,000 c that way but I eventually gave up as it was pointless listing +1 and +2 weapons and armor anywhere but Thornkeep and even in Thornkeep it would often not sell unless you specifically said in general chat "+1 Shortsword for 150c in the AH" or whatever.
The AH at TK had stock but it was either things no-one wanted like alchemist recipes or things with silly prices like coal at 40c each.
I cannot see the AH in its current form doing any better in EE than Alpha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really tries to use AH, but everytime I give up out of annoyance and boredom. I would say that if they really succeded with the teleporting, and it seems they have, the Goblinworkers need to attend to this bug, because I can't call it something other than a bug ... Becaus it cant be supposed to work this way!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Chaos has its advantages, but so does Law. Getting a group organized to supply itself with weapons and armor is one of the big perks of Law. The advantages of Chaos will probably show up a little later, when the most Lawful organizations start to calcify and become brittle.
(But yeah, All Hail Discordia! And Zog!)
This entire attitude bugs me. There is zero reason why the people who's characters are "chaotic" can't organize themselves in some way. Lawful organizations are not guaranteed to be well run just because they decide to choose that alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This entire attitude bugs me. There is zero reason why the people who's characters are "chaotic" can't organize themselves in some way. Lawful organizations are not guaranteed to be well run just because they decide to choose that alignment.Chaos has its advantages, but so does Law. Getting a group organized to supply itself with weapons and armor is one of the big perks of Law. The advantages of Chaos will probably show up a little later, when the most Lawful organizations start to calcify and become brittle.
(But yeah, All Hail Discordia! And Zog!)
Sorry if it bugs you, but that's been my experience so far.
My Settlement has declared its intention to be Chaotic Good. So far, I've met approximately 8-10 members of our Settlement in game, and spoken with our leader on Teamspeak once. We've grouped a couple of times as duos or trios to take on escalations and claim towers. As far as I know, we've had zero collaboration among our crafters. The large, well-organized Companies are giving away +3 weapons and armor. My Company doesn't exist in game yet, and the only Company that does exist isn't pledged to the Settlement yet.
Does all that mean I chose poorly? I don't think so. I hope our participation rate will improve during EE. I hope our crafting company will be more organized than the rest of us have been so far. I think we'll be okay once we get rolling, but it's going to take us longer to get organized than, say, TEO and TSV. In our case, the in-game alignment definitely aligns with our out-of-game actions so far, and that's fine with me.
Note: The good part of chaotic good has held true, too. Based on the folks I've met so far, we've got a very good group, indeed.
A group pledging itself to a lawful alliance could be well organized, or a mess. That's true. I can only speak from my own perspective, and in my view, it appears that Settlements are, for the most part, matching their actions to their alignments.
The way I see it, right now these D&D alignments are just meta-tools for helping to identify a group a people who may want to play a certain way.
I (personally) don't think not being organized in game means you match up to being Chaotic Good appropriately, I think it just means you're not very organized.
At some point, alignment is going to affect ability to train at certain settlements, but I imagine that even a company that does a lot of pvp, and thus identifies as chaotic neutral or lower, will in actuality be incredibly organized, ie. via teamspeak, website forums, in-game tactics and strategy etc. - that is, if they want to be really effective at PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way I see it, right now these D&D alignments are just meta-tools for helping to identify a group a people who may want to play a certain way.
I (personally) don't think not being organized in game means you match up to being Chaotic Good appropriately, I think it just means you're not very organized.
At some point, alignment is going to affect ability to train at certain settlements, but I imagine that even a company that does a lot of pvp, and thus identifies as chaotic neutral or lower, will in actuality be incredibly organized, ie. via teamspeak, website forums, in-game tactics and strategy etc. - that is, if they want to be really effective at PVP.
All good and valid points. I'm just amused to note that my own Settlement, which professes to be chaotic in-game, has been disorganized out-of-game throughout Alpha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way I see it, right now these D&D alignments are just meta-tools for helping to identify a group a people who may want to play a certain way.
I (personally) don't think not being organized in game means you match up to being Chaotic Good appropriately, I think it just means you're not very organized.
At some point, alignment is going to affect ability to train at certain settlements, but I imagine that even a company that does a lot of pvp, and thus identifies as chaotic neutral or lower, will in actuality be incredibly organized, ie. via teamspeak, website forums, in-game tactics and strategy etc. - that is, if they want to be really effective at PVP.
This
Our group is Chaotic. We do not have a lot of members in game yet, but the people who are playing are well organized and we get teamed up quite often.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as I know, we've had zero collaboration among our crafters.
The Smiths of Tavernhold are 100% united behind our incompetent company leader.
I have great hope that with Alpha there will be a basis for actual organization. The biggest factor in that will be the advent of alts and DTs. I am weird in wanting to be an Expert/Commoner primary build. I understand that most players want their flag carried by an adventurer type, but those high level crafting skills aren't going to be cheap enough for multiclassing out the gate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could be right about alts and DTs. The impermanence of Alpha certainly contributes, too.
I hope nobody's reading this as me complaining bitterly about Tavernhold. I've had a lot of fun partying with everyone, and I plan to stay with the Settlement during EE. I'm just amused by the contrast between us and the groups who might manage to defeat a 100% escalation or craft Tier 2 weapons and armor during Alpha (and maybe a little worried, to be honest, based on Ryan's predictions about organization being a key to survival).
Anyway, back to Auction Houses, I hope the market information display panel comes online soon after EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have given up on the AH system its very hard to sell +1 and +2 stuff through the AH as no-one knows it is there. You basically need to monitor the items and announce in chat they are for sale to have any chance of them selling.
Instead I have been direct trading but delivery is an issue.
As there is no sign of the AH being a priority for fixing I would like to see the ability to deposit directly to a players vault at your current location introduced. This would allow us to avoid the auction house.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The trouble with selling anything on the AH is that you're relying on your potential customers to click through dozens of empty listings in order to find your items. Even announcing that items are for sale only notifies the people who happen to be online and reading chat.
Another problem is that people don't know what works and what's broken. Tokens of Healing are apparently broken. Cure Potions are not broken, but I think they're suffering from guilt by association with the tokens. I've listed Cure Potions +1 several times, at prices that would probably be a loss if I were keeping track, and they just don't sell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...My Settlement has declared its intention to be Chaotic Good. So far, I've met approximately 8-10 members of our Settlement in game, and spoken with our leader on Teamspeak once. We've grouped a couple of times as duos or trios to take on escalations and claim towers. As far as I know, we've had zero collaboration among our crafters. The large, well-organized Companies are giving away +3 weapons and armor. My Company doesn't exist in game yet, and the only Company that does exist isn't pledged to the Settlement yet.
Does all that mean I chose poorly? I don't think so. I hope our participation rate will improve during EE. I hope our crafting company will be more organized than the rest of us have been so far. I think we'll be okay once we get rolling, but it's going to take us longer to get organized than, say, TEO and TSV. In our case, the in-game alignment definitely aligns with our out-of-game actions so far, and that's fine with me.
Note: The good part of chaotic good has held true, too. Based on the folks I've met so far, we've got a very good group, indeed...
Far as I'm concerned, Stoneroot and Tavernhold are family now :)
You put out a call and we'll be there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...My Settlement has declared its intention to be Chaotic Good. So far, I've met approximately 8-10 members of our Settlement in game, and spoken with our leader on Teamspeak once. We've grouped a couple of times as duos or trios to take on escalations and claim towers. As far as I know, we've had zero collaboration among our crafters. The large, well-organized Companies are giving away +3 weapons and armor. My Company doesn't exist in game yet, and the only Company that does exist isn't pledged to the Settlement yet.
Does all that mean I chose poorly? I don't think so. I hope our participation rate will improve during EE. I hope our crafting company will be more organized than the rest of us have been so far. I think we'll be okay once we get rolling, but it's going to take us longer to get organized than, say, TEO and TSV. In our case, the in-game alignment definitely aligns with our out-of-game actions so far, and that's fine with me.
Note: The good part of chaotic good has held true, too. Based on the folks I've met so far, we've got a very good group, indeed...
Far as I'm concerned, Stoneroot and Tavernhold are family now :)
You put out a call and we'll be there.
Much appreciated. I'm not authorized to speak for Tavernhold, but if you ever need help, you can count on me.