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In a recent game my players' characters ran afoul of a symbol of insanity, which hit two of them pretty hard.
The party's resident red mantis assassin wanted to use their prayer attack on one of the confused PCs and then follow up with a nonlethal coup de grace to knock them out.
After looking at the coup de grace description, I informed him that it was not possible, that the text for coup de grace only explicitly mentioned KILLING the target, and that he should probably consider pulling out his sap in order to get nonlethal sneak attack damage with it.
At this point the player exploded in front of everyone, yelling about how "that was a crap ruling" and "that it would be pretty much impossible to knock out high level characters if that was the case"--to which I responded "It's not a ruling I made. It's the rule. And well, yes, you generally need a prestige class or specialized abilities to be able to do something like that to a high level character."
The player in question stormed off and is now taking a hiatus from roleplaying for a while (I strongly suspect there are underlying issues involved).
There isn't a great deal I can do about the player at the moment, I'm just hoping he calms down and is ready to play again before my campaign starts up again (Our group switches to a different Adventure Path and GM every time we finish an Adventure Path module so as to avoid "GM burnout"); but I thought I'd ask to see if there was a way to make his initial request work.
Was I right about the rule? Or is there something I may have overlooked?
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My GM allows it, but I believe it's a houserule.
By RAW, it seems to be allowed to do nonlethal damage with a coup de grace... but, the target still must make a Fort save or die.
I agree with dealing non-lethal damage but they still are making a fort save to not die. If you're at the point of CDG then they are usually helpless, so you might as well just deal non-lethal damage to them anyway.
The fact that red mantis specialize in killing people and not knocking them out for later is reinforced by getting the CDG on their prayer attack and not a knockout.
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To some degree, I have to agree with the player, though certainly not with the way he protested. I could see how losing out on 3 rounds of actions in this case would be frustrating.
The coup de grace rules make no mention of nonlethal damage, so the GM has to make a call, and this is a case where going by strict RAW just seems silly and punitive. A 'nonlethal coup de grace' could easily just increase the targets nonlethal damage to its maximum instead of death, and it's a trope frequently seen in fiction.
The real gray area (and one that's particularly relevant here) is whether it's possible to do so with a lethal weapon, or whether it would require a sap or other nonlethal weapon to do. Though, the prayer attack doesn't require the coup de grace be taken with the sabres, so in the worst case they could use unarmed strikes instead of the flat of the blades. I like the imagery of the assassin distracting the target with her blades before kicking/punching them in the face and knocking them unconscious.
When in doubt, it's best to rule in favor of the players, or at least give them some kind of alternative.
I agree with your ruling, RD, especially if the player is dual-wielding sabres. RAW does not explicitly allow it and RAI would almost certainly forbid it. I mean, it's hard to see why you would allow non-lethal when this is the definition:
A coup de grâce (/ˌkuː də ˈɡrɑːs/; French for "blow of mercy") is a death blow to end the suffering of a severely wounded person or animal.[1][2] It may be a mercy killing of civilians or soldiers, friends or enemies, with or without the sufferer's consent.
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So, how would you handle someone doing a CdG with a lethal attack, but, due to a low Strength and a small damage weapon, only being able to do non-lethal damage?
2x 1d3-3 (Gnome or Halfling with Str as a dump stat, using a small dagger)
1 non-lethal, 2 non-lethal as a crit, Fort save for DC 11 or 12 or die?
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RD, as the others have said, you were correct.
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From an old 3.5 FAQ:
What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup de grace?
This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack, try these:
When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook), the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has 12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll, however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22 (current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs at –10 hit points.
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I'd allow it, and probably drop the save vs death. The rules are supposed to be a mechanical representation of fantasy reality. Rules are supposed to make intuitive sense, and help make the game more fun.
Not allowing a non-lethal coup de grace doesn't make sense, and would be less fun.
I would say by the rules a CdG is always to kill.
If a player came to me outside of combat and asked me how I would handle such a situation I would take some time to think about it. But during combat I'd take the rule, as I understand it and that would be how Ravingdork ruled it.
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So, how would you handle someone doing a CdG with a lethal attack, but, due to a low Strength and a small damage weapon, only being able to do non-lethal damage?
2x 1d3-3 (Gnome or Halfling with Str as a dump stat, using a small dagger)
1 non-lethal, 2 non-lethal as a crit, Fort save for DC 11 or 12 or die?
That's not correct. Lethal damage has no minimum strength requirement, nor a minimum dice requirement, nor a minimum weapon size. 1st level commoners can be killed by house cats, whom by the rules will do a minimum of 1 pt of damage per successful hit.
Your low strength character still does lethal damage, the only difference is that the lower damage means a lower than usual DC to survive.
Please read the relevant rules before you comment.
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If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
That means a small creature with a strength 4 and a weapon dealing 1d3 would do 1 point of non-lethal per hit and make a CdG for 1xcrit multiplier non-lethal damage. Say the crit multiplier is 2 (dagger) the target had would be dealt 2 non-lethal and have to save vs 12 or die.
1st level commoners can be killed by house cats, whom by the rules will do a minimum of 1 pt of damage per successful hit.
They'll do a minimum of 1 point of nonlethal. This can still kill you - once you have enough nonlethal damage you start taking lethal instead - but it's not lethal damage to start with.
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If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.And once non-lethal damage exceeds the characters hit points, all such damage becomes lethal.
Your gnome can still CDG, but it'd better be a very helpless target, cause it's gonna take awhile.
Depends on the target's luck with his rolls and his fort save bonus.
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I agree with your ruling. But if the player is your friend you May want to Call him and talk it over.
Problem may be as much definition as rules. Coup De Grace is not a non lethal attack, even outside the rules. It's a killing blow. By just very definition is implicit the blow is intend to kill the target.
The guy needs to fin a rule about how to knock people out. Not use a rule meant to kill a target to do so.
Granted there should be a rule, if there isn't one, for a special attack (scoring a crit), that COULD in a failed save knock someone flat out cold.
Much like being in a fist fight and suddenly one guy just flat out head butts the other in the face and knocks the target out cold. The target clearly is still quite healthy, and would in game terms still have a lot of hit points, but you just did something to punch his lights out in a single unexpected attack that his body could not handle. (Successful attack, failed save)
Knockout (Ex): At 4th level, once per day a brawler can unleash a devastating attack that can instantly knock a target unconscious. She must announce this intent before making her attack roll. If the brawler hits and the target takes damage from the blow, the target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 the brawler's level + the higher of the brawler's Strength or Dexterity modifier) or fall unconscious for 1d6 rounds. Each round on its turn, the unconscious target may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect as a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Creatures immune to critical hits or nonlethal damage are immune to this ability. At 10th level, the brawler may use this ability twice per day; at 16th level, she may use it three times per day.
Like that one?
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I'd probably allow it, with it being a save or go unconscious. I do a similar thing, but with cutting off limbs. I wouldn't say you were wrong, but I think you could have facilitated something with the player. Still no reason for them to lose their s*!& at you.
I wouldn't say you were wrong, but I think you could have facilitated something with the player.
I did. I told him to strike for nonlethal damage. I can only guess that he didn't want to suffer the -4 penalty to hit.
In a recent game my players' characters ran afoul of a symbol of insanity, which hit two of them pretty hard.
The party's resident red mantis assassin wanted to use their prayer attack on one of the confused PCs and then follow up with a nonlethal coup de grace to knock them out.
After looking at the coup de grace description, I informed him that it was not possible, that the text for coup de grace only explicitly mentioned KILLING the target, and that he should probably consider pulling out his sap in order to get nonlethal sneak attack damage with it.
...
Was I right about the rule? Or is there something I may have overlooked?
RD, I think you were correct for the situation, a RMA can not use his prayer attack (it uses sawtooth sabre(s)) to do nonlethal damage. But, IMO, you should be able to pull off a nonlethal CDG if you use a weapon that only does nonlethal damage (sap or merciful...). The 3.5 faq is good place to start.
RD, I think you were correct for the situation, a RMA can not use his prayer attack (it uses sawtooth sabre(s)) to do nonlethal damage. But, IMO, you should be able to pull off a nonlethal CDG if you use a weapon that only does nonlethal damage (sap or merciful...). The 3.5 faq is good place to start.
I disagree. Even a non-lethal CDG would still have the fort save or die.
Either hit and do non-lethal, or CDG and chance of killing. You could always just full-attack with the sap. Should do a reasonable amount of non-lethal damage.Possible houserule would be a new CDG-like ability called "beat senseless" or something that doesn't overlap with an already named ability, which is same rules as CDG, but must use non-lethal weapon and is fort save or unconscious for non-lethal damage dealt in rounds. But, that would be a houserule.
From an old 3.5 FAQ:
What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup de grace?
This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack, try these:
When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook), the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has 12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll, however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22 (current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs at –10 hit points.The game allows the GM to make sensible calls. The old 3.5 FAQ seems an obvious extension of the rule.
@OP,
The problem I have with your approach is that your taking a formalistic approach to the rules simply to thwart the player. It's 100% reasonable to allow a CDG with non-lethal to knock someone out.
There's a key piece of advice in a 3.5 book that says the GM should facilitate. As GM, you should look for ways to allow the player to do what they want...not insist that they can't.
Please don't chide people because their GMing style differs from yours. Some people aren't comfortable house ruling. Others are bound by group rules beyond their control. And some people just prefer to use a strict interpretation of the rules (to avoid charges of favoritism, because the group rotates GMs, because they are OCD, whatever).
The OP said he checked the rules, and on his reading, it didn't seem to be allowed. Subsequently, he came here asking for advice on how to let the player do what what he wanted.
How does that count as trying to "thwart the player"? If he was simply trying to thwart the player, he wouldn't have bothered asking. Or he would have phrased the question as "How do I make sure my player can't do this?"
Sometimes players want to do things that are outside the rules. Sometimes GMs have to tell players "No." That doesn't make them bad GMs.
Side note:
The 3.5 FAQ specifically says that the non-lethal CDG is "outside the rules". And you can't assume that a Pathfinder GM has ever heard of 3.5, much less is aware of all the FAQs and advice from different books.
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If a fictional hero had a foe tied up and helpless, and wanted to knock him unconscious with the hilt of his sword to stop him shouting for help, I'd expect it to work and not kill him accidentally. This seems like a case where it's better to say yes to the player rather than shutting down their ideas.
If a fictional hero had a foe tied up and helpless, and wanted to knock him unconscious with the hilt of his sword to stop him shouting for help, I'd expect it to work and not kill him accidentally. This seems like a case where it's better to say yes to the player rather than shutting down their ideas.
What about a stunned player? Paralyzed? Held person? Do they have to explicitly be helpless? Tied up? What if they are already unconscious? What if they are dying? Does it still not have a chance to kill them?
I don't think "I knock him out" should be allowed. Even on a helpless person. Since he is helpless though, the character could say they gag him, and then "I hit him for non-lethal damage until he passes out". No need to actually go roll by roll unless time is of the essence.
If these aren't relevant please show where it specifies a minimum, because I'm not going to to...
Are you honestly that lazy? If you followed the link I provided, the rules are right there.
Minimum Damage
If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
Coup de grace does not bypass this rule.
However, as per the coup de grace rules, you still need to roll a fort or die even if you don't do lethal damage. You could also do lethal eventually by having as much nonlethal damage as HP, wherein it is converted to lethal.
*edit*
Just noticed your goalpost shifting. Your original claim was that 'there is no minimum for lethal damage' and the gnome in the example would do 2 lethal damage. This is incorrect and is why I called you out.
The GM came here asking for opinions on the rules. As there is no rule regarding this matter, that means the GM has to make a rule. Saying you cannnot do something that is clearly possible in the real world, is in fact, house ruling. There's no rule that I can use a hollow read to breath below the surface of a pond. Does that mean the GM is justified in telling me I can't do it? Such is the mentality of your response.
Its clearly possible for some people in the real world to hit other people with swords and hurt them. There are rules which cover that in the game however. If there are no rules to cover a situation, then allowing it is houseruling, and disallowing it is simply staying within the provided rules.
Whether they've heard of 3.5 is irrelevant. The point is everyone and their idiot brother knows that you can knock someone out with a blow to the head without automatically killing them. Happens in boxing all the time.
The fact that hits to the head can knock people out without killing them does not mean that they always do. Real life examples of this are the eggshell skull rule.
Sometimes players want to do things that are outside the rules. Sometimes GMs have to tell players "No." That doesn't make them bad GMs.On the contrary, that's exactly what makes them bad GMs when the things that the players are proposing are certainly possible in the real world. The GM's job is to bridge the gap between the rules and things not covered by the rules. Refusing to allow something based on the narrow minded approach that there is no specific ruling allowing it, does in fact make you a poor quality GM. A good/great GM provides a logical basis for how it can happen within the context of the rules/mechanics/paradigm.
I've seen humans do things in the real world that I can't possibly do. Like Usain Bolt running 25MPH. Pathfinder characters run at 120 feet per 6 seconds, or 20 feet per second. Converted thats 13.636 MPH. Are you saying that telling PCs they can't run 25MPH is bad GMing?
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The fact that hits to the head can knock people out without killing them does not mean that they always do. Real life examples of this are the eggshell skull rule.
The nonlethal damage rules already cover this.
I'd allow it, and probably drop the save vs death. The rules are supposed to be a mechanical representation of fantasy reality. Rules are supposed to make intuitive sense, and help make the game more fun.
Not allowing a non-lethal coup de grace doesn't make sense, and would be less fun.
This.
Seriously guys, rule-lawyers are annoying. Don't be that guy.
The fact that hits to the head can knock people out without killing them does not mean that they always do. Real life examples of this are the eggshell skull rule.The nonlethal damage rules already cover this.
I disagree. If you are dealing nonlethal damage, you know without a doubt that when they drop unconscious, they will not be dead. (With the assumption that the thing you are fighting has at least 1 hit worth of hitpoints).
I think that a non-lethal CDG to deal non-lethal damage with a fort save or die represents the eggshell skull chance very well however. You tried to knock him out, there is a chance it might just kill him.
I disagree. If you are dealing nonlethal damage, you know without a doubt that when they drop unconscious, they will not be dead.Tell that to the sap master who killed the 2nd level commoner with one hit. And it wasn't a crit.
Let me just re-emphasize my condition: (With the assumption that the thing you are fighting has at least 1 hit worth of hitpoints).
The sap master could have elected to not deal sneak attack damage, since he was attacking a 2nd level commoner.
The sap master could have elected to not deal sneak attack damage, since he was attacking a 2nd level commoner.How would he have know that?
Knowledge(Local) check to identify the humanoid in front of him? At 5+CR (1/2) he'd need a 5 to get something about the abilities or weaknesses. Maybe something like, "how tough does this guy look" and you say he has 2HD of d6. He can even make this check untrained. And if combat hadn't been started yet, take 10 on it.
The GM came here asking for opinions on the rules. As there is no rule regarding this matter, that means the GM has to make a rule. Saying you cannnot do something that is clearly possible in the real world, is in fact, house ruling. There's no rule that I can use a hollow read to breath below the surface of a pond. Does that mean the GM is justified in telling me I can't do it? Such is the mentality of your response.
No, the mentality of my response is this:
The player asks to do a non-lethal coup de grace. I read the text of coup de grace, see that it specifies "killing blow" and has a "fort save or die" mechanic, and say, "I'm sorry--that particular mechanic won't let you knock someone out without risking killing them." Whether you can do non-lethal damage is kind of irrelevant: if there's no fort save, it's not a CDG, by definition.I then try to see if there is any other mechanic that will accomplish what the player wants to do. There are other "knockout" maneuvers or feats that might work, but the player doesn't have those. Of course, the player is certainly welcome to just do non-lethal damage until the target falls unconscious--there's absolutely no question about that.
However, if the player specifically wants to do an automatic critical hit with non-lethal damage and have absolutely no risk of killing the target, that requires a brand new rule. For whatever reason, I'm not comfortable creating a new rule, so I give the player his options: do regular non-lethal attacks, or risk killing the target.
Sometimes players want to do things that are outside the rules. Sometimes GMs have to tell players "No." That doesn't make them bad GMs.On the contrary, that's exactly what makes them bad GMs when the things that the players are proposing are certainly possible in the real world. The GM's job is to bridge the gap between the rules and things not covered by the rules. Refusing to allow something based on the narrow minded approach that there is no specific ruling allowing it, does in fact make you a poor quality GM. A good/great GM provides a logical basis for how it can happen within the context of the rules/mechanics/paradigm.
What about things that are clearly possible in the real world that are specifically forbidden by the rules?
In the real world, my ally and I can certainly fit within a five foot square and fight back to back. But this is not allowed. Am I a terrible GM because I won't let my players share a square in combat?
Or do I have to let my players charge through a square with an ally in it--because you can absolutely run past someone within 5 feet in the real world?
After all, these maneuvers are not allowed in the game just because the developers said so. Why shouldn't players be able to do them?
Where do you draw the line?