How about this houserule:
You can make a non-lethal CdG. If the target fails the save it's unconscious. If it fails the save by more than 5 it is dead.
It's a houserule. Congratulations!
House rules are outside the realm of this forum.
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Keep in mind that Pathfinder is a wargame
I still prefer to think of it as a role-playing game.
What about a stunned player? Paralyzed? Held person? Do they have to explicitly be helpless? Tied up? What if they are already unconscious? What if they are dying? Does it still not have a chance to kill them?
If I had to make up a houserule on the spot? Yes, they have to explicitly be helpless, same as Coup De Grace. Anything else would have game balance implications. You do double damage, same as Coup De Grace. If that's enough to kill them by the nonlethal rules, they die, assuming you're going for gritty realism in your abstract Hit Points mechanic.
If you don't have a nonlethal weapon, you'd have to use an unarmed strike or improvised weapon - 1d4 or 1d6 or whatever seems appropriate. If they don't die, they make a Fortitude save, same as Coup De Grace, and if they fail, they take enough nonlethal damage to make them unconscious.
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How about this houserule:
You can make a non-lethal CdG. If the target fails the save it's unconscious. If it fails the save by more than 5 it is dead.
Wouldn't that mean you'd never have more than a 25% chance of successfully knocking someone out without killing them?
It's a houserule. Congratulations!
House rules are outside the realm of this forum.
Right. We should ask the mods to close this thread because there is no rules answer.
And, in case you forgot:
Help us keep the messageboards a fun and friendly place.
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It's a houserule. Congratulations!
House rules are outside the realm of this forum.
Right. We should ask the mods to close this thread because there is no rules answer.
And, in case you forgot:
Help us keep the messageboards a fun and friendly place.
All posts to paizo.com should follow the Community Guidelines.
Sorry, snark and temper got the better of me. My apologies.
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Right. We should ask the mods to close this thread because there is no rules answer.
There is a rules answer, you can do nonlethal damage on a CDG but they must still make a Fort save or die.
It's just not a satisfactory answer, hence the house rules.
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From an old 3.5 FAQ:
What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup de grace?
This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack, try these:
When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook), the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has 12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll, however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22 (current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs at –10 hit points.
Thanks. I'm gonna use this in PRPG from now on. At times I forget that this game was built on a 3.5 foundation, and that those old rulings, in the absence of new ones, are still applicable.
If I remember correctly, I offered the player the chance to use a Hero Point to perform a coup de grace that would not kill his companion. Unfortunately, there were two circumstances holding up such an off the cuff ruling: The player being generally contrary and saying he shouldn't have to spend Hero Points to do something that he should, logically, be able to do without them; and that he happened to be out of Hero Points at the time.
Right. We should ask the mods to close this thread because there is no rules answer.There is a rules answer, you can do nonlethal damage on a CDG but they must still make a Fort save or die.
It's just not a satisfactory answer, hence the house rules.
Don't tell that to me. I got flamed for proposing a houserule.
Several days later I talked to the player in question after he had calmed down a bit. It would seem he blew up because of several things leading up to that incident, as I've described in more detail in the spoiler below. In short, he was upset because of my "railroading tendencies" as a GM.
In his own words, the player positively hated that no matter what steps they took during the adventure, nothing they did changed anything.
***
When the whores came upon their island, the player in question (the "Captain" of the crew) wanted to kill them, or otherwise get rid of them. Their timing was too convenient for his liking, and he never trusted them, even after they passed mundane and magical interrogation with flying colors AND after the PCs contacted Mediagalti island (the PC being a Red Mantis Assassin already) and obtained proof of their story.
He really wanted to kill them, and let us know that he was upset that, logically, his character had no reason to do so.
***
After clearing the island of every single threat, the player in question had no desire whatsoever to go through the tests given by the Pirate Lords visiting his island. The way he saw it, they had already proven themselves by taming the island. All of the trials ended up feeling forced, because the players knew they were working on a point-based scoring system and they HAD to do the trials if they wanted to get anywhere with the Pirate Council.
***
The PCs took steps to check the food for poison, but due to the nature of the Eel's sabotage, they never detected anything wrong with the food until their guests started getting sick (the Captain even stood in the kitchen and watched it get cooked). Though they managed to discreetly cure everyone after the fact (leaving only one council member feeling ill for a brief 5 minutes). Having to deal with the scenario despite all of their precautions left a bad taste in their mouths, even after it was explained how the Eel pulled it all off.
***
It was well known that the PCs had used magic to fix up the fort and surrounding areas in preparation for the feast, including judicious use of stone shape to seal up all of the cracks in the walls and foundations, and to seal off all of the tunnels to the underworld.
So when it was later revealed that the Eel infiltrated their island by slithering through just such a crack (that by all rights shouldn't have existed in the first place), they all threw up their hands in discontent. I explained to my players that I had simply forgotten about the detailed nature of their repairs and that the Eel could nevertheless have simply come up on shore on an unguarded part of the island just as easily--or via a thousand other routes/methods.
But the damage had already been done.
One of the most exciting modules I have ever had the pleasure of reading quickly became one of the worst games I have ever hosted. It was universally reviled by my players who, insofar as I can tell, just want to be ruthless pirates, not politicians. I now have little hope for the future of the campaign.
Combat had started, and he didn't ask.
Then its his own fault, he overestimated how tough that guy looked.
Being a 7-11 you tend to expect things to be able to take a hit.Combat had started, and he didn't ask.Then its his own fault, he overestimated how tough that guy looked.
Maybe he'll ask to take 10 to see if they guy looks like a weakling or not before combat starts. If the guy isn't a weakling, he won't be sure. Otherwise, he'll be pretty sure that guy is a weakling.
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Maybe he'll ask to take 10 to see if they guy looks like a weakling or not before combat starts.
We didn't really expect to have to deal with a bar brawl of 2nd level commoners. :)
But this is rather immaterial to the fact that a nonlethal crit can still kill an enemy when you aren't expecting it. Which I think was the start of this whole tangent.
Maybe he'll ask to take 10 to see if they guy looks like a weakling or not before combat starts.We didn't really expect to have to deal with a bar brawl of 2nd level commoners. :)
But this is rather immaterial to the fact that a nonlethal crit can still kill an enemy when you aren't expecting it. Which I think was the start of this whole tangent.
I said it wouldn't kill an enemy assuming you can tell they can actually take a hit of yours. As long as you can't overkill them in 1 shot, you can just hit for nonlethal until they drop and know that they won't be dead.
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Wouldn't that mean you'd never have more than a 25% chance of successfully knocking someone out without killing them?How about this houserule:
You can make a non-lethal CdG. If the target fails the save it's unconscious. If it fails the save by more than 5 it is dead.
It's worst than that as a level 1 warrior has a reasonable chance to kill a level 10 fighter. You can both give them 14 Strength and Constitution.
Level 1 warrior damage
Weapon damage: longsword or 3.5x2 = 7
Strength 14: 2 x 2 = 4 (assuming 1 handed)
base dc = +10
Power attack: 2 x 2 = 4
Average dc: 25
Level 10 fighter save
Base: 7
Con: 2 + 2 (assuming +2 con belt) 4
Resistance (such as cloak of resistance) 2
Total save: 13
So as result the Fighter has to roll a 12 or better to save from being knocked out. Which means the Fighter only has 45% chance not to be knocked out, 20% chance to be knocked out and than 35% chance to be killed.
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If these aren't relevant please show where it specifies a minimum, because I'm not going to to...Are you honestly that lazy? If you followed the link I provided, the rules are right there.
Minimum DamageIf penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
Coup de grace does not bypass this rule.
However, as per the coup de grace rules, you still need to roll a fort or die even if you don't do lethal damage. You could also do lethal eventually by having as much nonlethal damage as HP, wherein it is converted to lethal.
*edit*
Just noticed your goalpost shifting. Your original claim was that 'there is no minimum for lethal damage' and the gnome in the example would do 2 lethal damage. This is incorrect and is why I called you out.
Before calling someone out you should check what you are saying:
Minimum Damage
If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
VS
Gnome doing 2 points of damage.
That rule don't apply.
If the damage is reduced to 0 or less after the critical damage is applied the rule apply.
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If these aren't relevant please show where it specifies a minimum, because I'm not going to to...Are you honestly that lazy? If you followed the link I provided, the rules are right there.
Minimum DamageIf penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
Coup de grace does not bypass this rule.
However, as per the coup de grace rules, you still need to roll a fort or die even if you don't do lethal damage. You could also do lethal eventually by having as much nonlethal damage as HP, wherein it is converted to lethal.
*edit*
Just noticed your goalpost shifting. Your original claim was that 'there is no minimum for lethal damage' and the gnome in the example would do 2 lethal damage. This is incorrect and is why I called you out.
Before calling someone out you should check what you are saying:
Minimum DamageIf penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
VS
Gnome doing 2 points of damage.
That rule don't apply.
If the damage is reduced to 0 or less after the critical damage is applied the rule apply.
Okay, so, can you answer my question?
Gnome Illusionist Wizard, Strength 5, using a Small dagger to do a CdG on a helpless target.Dagger: 1d3, x2
Str -3
So 1d3-3x2, or 2d3-6.
So, does that auto-crit do 1 point of non-lethal, or does it do 2 points of non-lethal because of the multiplier?