...or do they just get full attacked, misted, and slain in their coffins? I am curious because I'm running a module with vampires (Ashes at Dawn), and so far, I've never seen garlic, holy water, or anything else used in any fight against vampires (after 10+ years of 3.5 and PF) Obviously, why would a PC waste an action on an uncertain result when they can just slash the poor vampire to death and track them to their coffin (which is easy for most PCs, just follow the 20' moving mist at a speed of 30')? Nonetheless, I am a huge fan of old mythology and folklore, and feel that sometimes, the vampire fight plays out like a fight against any other monster rather than embracing the stories about them. Anyone have anything or any stories where these weaknesses actually came into play? (Besides Sunlight.)
Well, if the vampire is appropriate encounter level, then the PCs also have super powers and can punch out Dracula.
Normal mortals that deal with vampires have to rely on their weaknesses.
It's difficult to keep up with the mist when it slips through cracks.
Unfortunately, the only stories I have are sunlight, else I like to mix up the vampire weaknesses so knowledge checks are relevant, else everyone knows what to stock up on.
The standard non-magical adventuring kit that all my characters carry (even at 20th level) includes a mirror and a couple of garlic cloves, plus a vial or three of holy water. Various other alchemical and adventuring items (smokesticks, tanglefoot bags, etc.) as well, naturally, but I definitely make sure to include some anti-vampire measures.
At 20th level, is this due to vampires in your campaign, player knowledge of how vampires mechanically work, or just old folklore (which is prevalent in media depictions of vampires)? Also, has anyone (after 20 levels), actually used said items to 'turn' (make them flee) vampires?
Well, if the vampire is appropriate encounter level, then the PCs also have super powers and can punch out Dracula.
Normal mortals that deal with vampires have to rely on their weaknesses.It's difficult to keep up with the mist when it slips through cracks.
Unfortunately, the only stories I have are sunlight, else I like to mix up the vampire weaknesses so knowledge checks are relevant, else everyone knows what to stock up on.
I shouldn't have discluded sunlight as a way to destroy vamps, provided its done in a creative way. If so, please elaborate!
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One way to do this would be to throw an NPC in to do the lore based solution.
There are of course several ways to do such a thing. Is this some grizzled undead hunting ranger, with decades of experience and full class levels on par with the PC's? Or is it just some farm boy hireling who joined the party because he fiance has been kidnapped, and he just relies upon the stories his grandmother told him?
(cool thought- make the grandmother the grizzled undead hunter. I kind of want her to burst in, take out the vampire spawn the party is having trouble with, and then smack farm boy when he ask WTF? before lighting a cigar. )
Overall, if it is something 'other people do', and it doesn't waste the player's precious action economy, then they will appreciate it and enjoy the experience. And heck, after getting them used to the results, they might start doing it themselves (at the very least, they might get a familiar to do it or something instead of just spamming wand X)
Also, depending on level, you could make the mist just escape using basic terrain obstacles. IE- flying mist going over a ravine. Makes the guy annoying, which makes the players REALLY want to kill him. So they might be more willing to try using various methods to ease capture so they can give it a dunking in a river (Now that seems like one of the rules from the vampire template that gets over looked a lot)
Oh, believe me, between Stoneshape and some of the other Druid spells, I've crafted coffin scenarios that were as vexing as hunting down a Lich's phylactery. It's amazing how many one inch tunnels you can put into a 5' cubic square of stone.
Its not so much the action economy that gets me, more of the "Is this monster behaving like every legend and myth that's been told about" shtick. More often than not, its alway better to mist the vampire from damage than wasting the action on turning them away. I'm wishing I was wrong about that and am looking for examples to solidify my conflicted opinion.. 'Has PF made vamps no different than any other monster? Is the folklore (weaknesses) ignored in favor of the mathematical practicality of damage until death?
Off to bed, so I'll be back to respond in 7-10 hours.
Contributor
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The problem, as someone referenced above, is encounter level. In most stories, the vampire would massacre the humans if not for those weaknesses. If you throw higher-level vampires out there, they might see use.
I was running another AP which has vampires as several of its villains. I started introducing them early, particularly to PCs who weren't afraid to be out at night. Those weaknesses were often their salvation. Well, most of them. A vampire can't enter someone's home without an invitation... but he can burn it down. Ashes at Dawn is a bit late for that, though...
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Vampires work very differently as "level appropriate" encounters. If it's level appropriate, using garlic or holy symbols or what have you is dumb. You can just destroy them.
Now, if some low-level PCs have a mission in a vampire-ruled barony that has nothing to do with killing vampires, you start to see some of the old tricks surface.
I found it also helps a lot if you always describe magical enemy deaths with a bit of flair. Last campaign my players ended up fighting a group of vampires twice because "he collapses into mist" didn't stand out, so the vampires had time to recuperate.
Cheers!
Landon
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To answer the OP, in our Ashes at Dawn game, on hearing that we would be facing vampires, the bard bought herself a mirror.
Not being a damage-dealer, she successfully used it to protect herself 3-4 times during the course of that book.
So yes, we had one player who used a vampire weakness in Ashes at Dawn to protect herself.
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Garlic, Holy symbols, mirrors, running water barriers, and invitations are all things to keep them away. In Dracula the garlic was only used to ward a window against entry. Mostly when you encounter them in D&D you are trying to kill them and you have powerful standard attack forms so those are what you use. PCs are more likely to have anti-undead attacks (positive energy, healing wands) than specific anti-vampire stuff.
Dragging out into actual sunlight or grappling and dragging into running water would be cool but are very situational and tough to pull off mechanically.
Other than encountering ones in combat, as a PC I've interacted with vampires in roleplaying encounters (nobles who were openly vampires) and the weaknesses did not come up because it was all social interactions.
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I had a 2e Gothic-Earth Ravenloft group kill Dracula with a fire engine.
I still am unclear whether to classify it with my worst or greatest moments as a DM.
Dracula showed up, basically urbane, mysterious and threatening. Party members got salty with him, especially when one mentioned they'd twigged to him being a vampire.
A running battle between the (horrendously outgunned) heroes and vampire king of Gothic Earth occured.
Now Drac had standard vampire weaknesses.
They run down the streets in 1932 New York, hunting for those weakness areas. They noticed that Drac had to divert after a dynamite wielding member accidentally blew a fire hydrant open (and realized it was now forming a running stream down the street).
The exchange went like...
PC: Aww crap man. We can't get away from him! We're on foot and the river's like a mile away.
PC 2: *the dynamite freak* ...no freaking cops responding to the dynamite yet, well that's good and bad. Err, its the 30s? Where's the fire department?
PC: Thinking about getting a car to ride over the river?
PC 2: ...something like that.
They get to the Fire Dept, Dracula manages to kill one of them but not exsanguinate him (and he damaged the big D by setting off preventive tnt).
The other PCs rapidly pull the engine into the streets, and instead of running, the Dynamite wielder insists they hook it to a hydrant.
They do so rapidly as Drac pulls himself together a bit after the explosion, looking royally peeved.
And then the TNT wielder, channeling UHF, shouts, "HEY DRAC! TIME TO DRINK FROM THE FIRE HOSE!"
And proceeds to trap the Demon Lord of Vampires against a wall for three rounds with a high pressure water hose until he expired.
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Ha! Loved the Weird Al reference (I live near Tulsa, where much of his movie was filmed)! Sounds like good times.
My sons keep saying "We're not high enough level for you to throw vampires at us, Dad!".
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Oh, believe me, between Stoneshape and some of the other Druid spells, I've crafted coffin scenarios that were as vexing as hunting down a Lich's phylactery. It's amazing how many one inch tunnels you can put into a 5' cubic square of stone.
Its not so much the action economy that gets me, more of the "Is this monster behaving like every legend and myth that's been told about" shtick. More often than not, its alway better to mist the vampire from damage than wasting the action on turning them away. I'm wishing I was wrong about that and am looking for examples to solidify my conflicted opinion.. 'Has PF made vamps no different than any other monster? Is the folklore (weaknesses) ignored in favor of the mathematical practicality of damage until death?Off to bed, so I'll be back to respond in 7-10 hours.
In my experience, yes the vampire weaknesses come into play. They almost HAVE to if you're running vampires effectively.
Vampires are social creatures that can enlist outside, non-vampire resources, especially if they're wealthy and can leverage civilization's laws against the players.
Vampires should not be going toe-toe with PCs all the time, especially if it's a vampire that's survived for decades, let alone centuries. Guerilla tactics, dividing the party and attacking isolated PCs or NPCs, softening them up with dominated NPCs/creatures and "creatures of the night" should be employed.
In other words, in my experience, when vampires are played to utilize the benefits at their disposal in a manner that the PCs themselves would employ, those vampire weaknesses become essential tools. If vampires are limited to a static role in an encounter/location then don't be surprised if they get killed like "just another monster".
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Thanks for replies all. This came about because I was designing a vampire lair. I wanted to use mirrors to have their gazes be reflect able, then realized that a lot of vampires would be cowering in their own lair. The consensus seems to be the inclusion of weakness enabling devices is based upon the level when the vampires are encountered.
On a side note, has anyone ever grappled a vampire then jumped into moving water with them? I can't see it coming up much, but that would be a pretty neat way to take one out.
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My fighter tried, but the problem is the grapple rules: He grabbed the vampire as a standard action, the vampire took Gaseous Form as its standard action...
...so a waste of time, but better than being Dominated into oblivion...
I'm sure there's a rules-legal way to do it in a single action, but my recollection is that I had to move up to grab him, and didn't want to risk Bull Rushing myself right out of the combat if I missed...
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I've found in table play, the gaseous form thing is nigh on useless.
It moves ridiculously slowly and unless you rely on 'cracks you can't move through' they can just follow it.
When fighting vampires, a summoner used to keep a summon prepped for air elementals, and he'd cyclone them up and given air elementals through the summoner ability are for minutes, would keep them on spin cycle for a while. Less 'oh no, how do we stop the vampire' and more 'oh no, how do we spend the time.'
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On a side note, has anyone ever grappled a vampire then jumped into moving water with them? I can't see it coming up much, but that would be a pretty neat way to take one out.
I spent like....15 minutes on my post debating whether I should mention that idea...
Unfortunately, don't vampires have gaseous form at will? Admittedly, if you found some way to keep him from doing that (likely some way to prevent any actions), then it would be simple as long as the water is nearby. (would halt undead work? Would dumping them into the lake count as 'attacking' them? Could you have someone with a 60 swim speed handle it and take them to a fatal depth before they can break the spell?)
If you find their coffin beforehand though, I like the idea of throwing it into the ocean. It is like throwing a lich's phylactery into the plane of positive energy- it is great for threats.
This might seem kind of dumb to others, but here goes. I think you can grapple a creature in gaseous form. Here's the spell text:
A gaseous creature can't run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet and automatically succeeds on all Fly skill checks. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid. It also can't manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.
No where does it say that the creature is immune to grapple. In fact, it would be weird for a 3rd level spell to accomplish what a 4th level spell does (Freedom of Movement) plus other benefits.
I'm not saying it makes sense, (and I'm gonna feel dumb if I am wrong), but I think you can grapple gaseous creatures... Unless the simple inclusion of the word 'insubstantial' (which isn't defined anywhere else in the CRB.. its not incorporeal) means otherwise.
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Mistmail I am curious how this would work with a Vampire character?
Me I prefer to throw Dread Vampire at my party then the regular vampire race. Its third party, but effective.
This might seem kind of dumb to others, but here goes. I think you can grapple a creature in gaseous form. Here's the spell text:
** spoiler omitted **
No where does it say that the creature is immune to grapple. In fact, it would be weird for a 3rd level spell to accomplish what a 4th level spell does (Freedom of Movement) plus other benefits.
I'm not saying it makes sense, (and I'm gonna feel dumb if I am wrong), but I think you can grapple gaseous creatures... Unless the simple inclusion of the word 'insubstantial' (which isn't defined anywhere else in the CRB.. its not incorporeal) means otherwise.
Never mind, I'm being foolish. Found a bunch of threads stating that you can't grapple a gaseous creature. Not sure I totally agree with this since I can think of fringe instances where that wouldn't make sense.
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This might seem kind of dumb to others, but here goes. I think you can grapple a creature in gaseous form. Here's the spell text:
** spoiler omitted **
No where does it say that the creature is immune to grapple. In fact, it would be weird for a 3rd level spell to accomplish what a 4th level spell does (Freedom of Movement) plus other benefits.
I'm not saying it makes sense, (and I'm gonna feel dumb if I am wrong), but I think you can grapple gaseous creatures... Unless the simple inclusion of the word 'insubstantial' (which isn't defined anywhere else in the CRB.. its not incorporeal) means otherwise.
Well, you could justify a 3rd level spell having a similar effect to a 4th level spell because it has a lot of problematic elements (ie- it makes spell casting VERY troublesome...and spellcasting is the main class feature of most of the classes that can use that spell). I'm not saying it is the only use...but mostly, I think the main use of the spell seems similar to how vampires use it. That and infiltration, at least.
Still, I am not going to argue 'insubstantial', but the 'can fit through small holes' part. That goes right past the part in escape artist about fitting in tight spaces (fitting into a place as big as your head, but not your shoulders by passing a DC 35 check and spending 1 minute). So I could see someone saying that they could just as easily ignore the grapple check.
Looking at it again though, it says you can't enter water while you are a mist. So that could mean they can't use the power underwater. That leaves hope- Tetori grabs vampire, barbarians goes long with tetori. Touch down (on water). Simple. Later, barbarian and tetori go back to the inn to party with their cheerleader groupies.
I'm just using a vampire for the first time in a game now. The first session after they found out the fellow was a vampire one of the players went to research vampire weaknesses, so I may see some in use eventually.
I'd forgotten the whole "afraid of mirrors" thing, in fact I still don't remember much about it or where it's from. A point was made in another recent thread that real-world vampire mythology is basically all over the freakin' map from driving iron nails into ribs, bricks into mouths, or white rice on your doorstep to destroy, block, or otherwise affect vampires.
As for *using* their weaknesses, well once they are defined PCs will use them same as any other monster, because we're gamers and that's how we do. If the weaknesses are too useless to matter in a proper encounter then they probably weren't major weaknesses in the first place.
I still rather enjoyed John Carpenter's Vampires, and how a team of slayers worked by harpooning vampires in their dark lairs and dragging them out into the sunlight with mechanical winches.
As for me, I haven't actually fought that many vampires before, DMs seem to shy away from what is essentially an undead junkie (blood-addiction is usually described as drug-like) who has to hide inside a wooden box 50% of the time and has trouble with (according to legacy of cain) rainy nights.
To be fair vampires are not hurt by rain just when submerged in it. Real world myths say it must be running water. So a pond does not count.
I'd forgotten the whole "afraid of mirrors" thing, in fact I still don't remember much about it or where it's from. A point was made in another recent thread that real-world vampire mythology is basically all over the freakin' map from driving iron nails into ribs, bricks into mouths, or white rice on your doorstep to destroy, block, or otherwise affect vampires.
As for *using* their weaknesses, well once they are defined PCs will use them same as any other monster, because we're gamers and that's how we do. If the weaknesses are too useless to matter in a proper encounter then they probably weren't major weaknesses in the first place.
I still rather enjoyed John Carpenter's Vampires, and how a team of slayers worked by harpooning vampires in their dark lairs and dragging them out into the sunlight with mechanical winches.
As for me, I haven't actually fought that many vampires before, DMs seem to shy away from what is essentially an undead junkie (blood-addiction is usually described as drug-like) who has to hide inside a wooden box 50% of the time and has trouble with (according to legacy of cain) rainy nights.
Mirror thing is because old mirror making techniques used a lot of silver. Silver was regarded as a 'holy' metal, and as such it would be the bane of evil creatures.
Well, that is probably the 'no reflection' part (since they had no souls; were ghosts[?]), and the silver was just a bro for giving you a heads up. That could have possibly evolved into a 'fear of mirrors' thing since it revealed their true nature.
And yes, I realize how odd it is for vampires to have silver as a weakness. But that was how it worked. Heck, wooden stakes where the economy option- higher class ones would be made of Iron, and then Silver for the 'I'm rich and paranoid' end of the price spectrum.
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Dracula was killed via a bowie knife to the heart, Bowie does not make silver blades, so virtually any metal could work in most mythos.
Silver is a thing in many myths because it was considered pure and a sign of holy purity, where as gold as clearly too tainted with greed.
Then again some vampires in myth didn't drink blood, so... good luck with fitting real world myths into PF. I mean look at zombies or general undead, headshots don't do anything to zombies, you need slashing weapons.
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Headshots didn't play into zombies until recently, and it was actually based on a plot from The Smurfs written in 1959.
I still don't know any examples of a vampire being afraid of mirrors, got any examples?
Edit: Wow, words fail me.
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Some might suggest that the mirror would cause them to recoil because they would be overcome with shame from being confronted with the monster they have become. Remember as well that the suave hot vampire is also a more modern convention. Earlier depictions of vampires suggest them to be fairly hideous creatures.
Dracula was killed via a bowie knife to the heart, Bowie does not make silver blades, so virtually any metal could work in most mythos.
Silver is a thing in many myths because it was considered pure and a sign of holy purity, where as gold as clearly too tainted with greed.
Then again some vampires in myth didn't drink blood, so... good luck with fitting real world myths into PF. I mean look at zombies or general undead, headshots don't do anything to zombies, you need slashing weapons.
Of course, I am fairly sure there is also an association between gold and god....but I suppose that is why it is considered greedy. Desiring the power of god and all that.
Just accept that silver medal man. God is always going to get 1st place.
But yeah, depictions get weird.....like how I mentioned the 'ghost' thing. Yeah, in some religious practices, vampires are ghost/demon/things. Which gaseous form calls back to I guess. And you still have to track down the body in those cases since it serves as a kind of phylactery basically.
Oh, other lovely fact- in many traditions, staking in them in the heart has very little to do with directly killing them. No, because think about it- a stake is basically an oversized nail. The idea is that you nail that bugger down so you can get to the more complicated parts of chopping off the head/stuffing garlic cloves in the mouth/burning the corpse. Because who wants a headless vampire to attack you while you have your hand in its mouth and your buddy is busy grabbing the gas cans?
.....ok, I totally want that, but more as a 'life experience' thing rather than something that routinely happens on the job.
In a low magic low wealth campaign you can raise their DR a bit to 15 cold iron. Also give them great resistance. That way they will be immune to a lot of the things the PCs throw at them. And when say, you expose the vampire to garlic, running water, or a holy symbol then you could remove all their resistances and have a great fight.
"Curses! You have utilized my weakness!"
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Headshots didn't play into zombies until recently, and it was actually based on a plot from The Smurfs written in 1959.
I still don't know any examples of a vampire being afraid of mirrors, got any examples?
Edit: Wow, words fail me.
Zombie contagion is also a modern Romero invention.
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Vampire template is a CR +2.
So take a 3rd level party and introduce commoner 1 or warrior 1 vampires and you have a big load of problems on your hands.
They are "CR appropriate" monsters technically, but for a party of that level it's pretty hard to get through their Drs and other defenses, especially if they don't know they are vampires right away and/or don't have the time to prepare.
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Vampire template is a CR +2.
So take a 3rd level party and introduce commoner 1 or warrior 1 vampires and you have a big load of problems on your hands.
They are "CR appropriate" monsters technically, but for a party of that level it's pretty hard to get through their Drs and other defenses, especially if they don't know they are vampires right away and/or don't have the time to prepare.
They need 5 or more hit dice to be a vampire though.
You could throw a vampire spawn though. It is basically a wight, but it gets some small buffs in return for vampire weaknesses, and trades in creating spawn for a dominate.
So that does seem rather close to 'level appropriate' for the rangers where players are desperate for things like weaknesses (heck, they are desperate for masterwork weapons and special material weapons at that range as well)
So yeah-maybe use vampire LITE instead?
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As far as the HD limitation, you could just make a level 5 NPC class with the template.
Some might suggest that the mirror would cause them to recoil because they would be overcome with shame from being confronted with the monster they have become. Remember as well that the suave hot vampire is also a more modern convention. Earlier depictions of vampires suggest them to be fairly hideous creatures.
Throughout the folklore of various cultures mirrors have an association with the soul. Covering them in a house where someone has died to avoid their soul becoming trapped for example.
Vampires were often believed to have no souls and thus no reflection. Basically they recoil because it reminds them of this. (Side note this is also a thing with certain demons in lore.)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Zombie contagion is also a modern Romero invention.Headshots didn't play into zombies until recently, and it was actually based on a plot from The Smurfs written in 1959.
I still don't know any examples of a vampire being afraid of mirrors, got any examples?
Edit: Wow, words fail me.
Almost our entire modern conception of zombies comes from Romero. :P
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Almost our entire modern conception of zombies comes from Romero. :P
Yet, in the original Night of the Living Dead, the word ghoul is used twice and zombie never used at all. So why is the entire subgenre called zombie movies, when the were supposed to be ghouls? Ghouls even make more sense.