Title pretty much sums up my question. Why do people freak out when you mention Drow Noble.
People mention in a lot of threads their Spell-Like Abilities, but you can gain them through feats. Their Stat adjust is not all that powerful unless you got dang lucky on a roll or are using an insanely high Point Buy.
And to be honest I have both played as a Drow Noble (Gunslinger Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger before Errata) and while I did very good damage I didn't OP the game and make everyone else useless. And I have played DM to a Drow Noble Ranger and a Drow Noble Rogue in the same game. They where a little difficult to adjust to at first but quickly fell into line. (Pretty new at the DM thing when this happened)
Humans get a free bonus feat, which they can take to start lines of feats far earlier then the rest of the party. If one argument that is common is true, Feats are a precious resource. You can spend class level feats to gain racial aspects via race feats, and magical items boost ability scores but being able to throw on that second or third feat at level 1 seems pretty darn powerful. So why does no one say Humans are OP?
I feel like quoting Joker from The Dark Knight movie but I would butcher the lines, but he mentions it pretty well about if things go according to plan no one freaks out, but the moment you throw a little chaos in, a little thing that was not expected or known people freak out. I feel this applies to this. We all know Humans, they are common and we have all played or seen them played so they don't freak us out. But Drows for a long time where a monster race pure and simple, now we have the CR 1/3 (Same as humans btw) Drow and even then I hear people complaining about how powerful they are. Now throw in their CR 1 Big Brother the Noble Drow and all heck breaks loose.
So why is that?
Why do people freak if they see a person sit down and show their Drow Noble Swashbuckler or Fighter or Bard, Etc character sheet?
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Title pretty much sums up my question. Why do people freak out when you mention Drow Noble.
People mention in a lot of threads their Spell-Like Abilities, but you can gain them through feats. Their Stat adjust is not all that powerful unless you got dang lucky on a roll or are using an insanely high Point Buy.
And to be honest I have both played as a Drow Noble (Gunslinger Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger before Errata) and while I did very good damage I didn't OP the game and make everyone else useless. And I have played DM to a Drow Noble Ranger and a Drow Noble Rogue in the same game. They where a little difficult to adjust to at first but quickly fell into line. (Pretty new at the DM thing when this happened)
Humans get a free bonus feat, which they can take to start lines of feats far earlier then the rest of the party. If one argument that is common is true, Feats are a precious resource. You can spend class level feats to gain racial aspects via race feats, and magical items boost ability scores but being able to throw on that second or third feat at level 1 seems pretty darn powerful. So why does no one say Humans are OP?
I feel like quoting Joker from The Dark Knight movie but I would butcher the lines, but he mentions it pretty well about if things go according to plan no one freaks out, but the moment you throw a little chaos in, a little thing that was not expected or known people freak out. I feel this applies to this. We all know Humans, they are common and we have all played or seen them played so they don't freak us out. But Drows for a long time where a monster race pure and simple, now we have the CR 1/3 (Same as humans btw) Drow and even then I hear people complaining about how powerful they are. Now throw in their CR 1 Big Brother the Noble Drow and all heck breaks loose.
So why is that?
Why do people freak if they see a person sit down and show their Drow Noble Swashbuckler or Fighter or Bard, Etc character sheet?
The easiest answer I can give is to ask you to look at the Race Points from the Race Guide.
A Drow is built with 14 points. The Noble has 41.
An Aasimar, generally a fairly strong race, is 15. The core races are all ~ <= 10.
The reason is has been stated.
It's not as OP as the race points indicate, but it's quite strong. A very great race that I like a lot. Many feel differently.
The problem with having "it can be gotten with feats" is that doing so requires investment.
Still, I find it significantly telling that they are only recommended to be one level below standard races.
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Title pretty much sums up my question. Why do people freak out when you mention Drow Noble.
People mention in a lot of threads their Spell-Like Abilities, but you can gain them through feats. Their Stat adjust is not all that powerful unless you got dang lucky on a roll or are using an insanely high Point Buy.
And to be honest I have both played as a Drow Noble (Gunslinger Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger before Errata) and while I did very good damage I didn't OP the game and make everyone else useless. And I have played DM to a Drow Noble Ranger and a Drow Noble Rogue in the same game. They where a little difficult to adjust to at first but quickly fell into line. (Pretty new at the DM thing when this happened)
Humans get a free bonus feat, which they can take to start lines of feats far earlier then the rest of the party. If one argument that is common is true, Feats are a precious resource. You can spend class level feats to gain racial aspects via race feats, and magical items boost ability scores but being able to throw on that second or third feat at level 1 seems pretty darn powerful. So why does no one say Humans are OP?
I feel like quoting Joker from The Dark Knight movie but I would butcher the lines, but he mentions it pretty well about if things go according to plan no one freaks out, but the moment you throw a little chaos in, a little thing that was not expected or known people freak out. I feel this applies to this. We all know Humans, they are common and we have all played or seen them played so they don't freak us out. But Drows for a long time where a monster race pure and simple, now we have the CR 1/3 (Same as humans btw) Drow and even then I hear people complaining about how powerful they are. Now throw in their CR 1 Big Brother the Noble Drow and all heck breaks loose.
So why is that?
Why do people freak if they see a person sit down and show their Drow Noble Swashbuckler or Fighter or Bard, Etc character sheet?
I dont know about freak out, but a drow noble is certainly more powerful then any of the core races. And while a certain character may not take advantage of those abilities, others can. So as a standard rule, unless you some how adjust for it (give other races bonuses to match) playing a drow noble along side normal races isnt a good idea.
On the other hand, I have run a game with a drow noble player, specifically skull and shackles. But other pcs got significant bonuses to account for all the extra stuff the noble gets (it revolves around a set of house rules I reducing the amount of magic items in the game).
Basically the drow noble gets more stuff. And yes, other characters can eventually get the same stuff, but the a race like the noble provides a significant advantage if used to its full potential.
So I dont freak out, but I will take specific action to accomodate such a character, and I also have to know WHY the character is involved in the campaign. It will certainly require extra work for both me and the player, many dont want to do that extra work, and so, they simply dont allow it.
Simple answer: because of Drizzt.
Also because it's major cheese (41 racial builder points, come on!!)
Also because the DM really *ought* to have nearly all NPCs gunning for the murderous bustard on sight, pretty much the same if they saw a rabid dog running across the street of their fair city, mudhole, etc.
Then again, some people have goblin, orc or even weirder PCs. <shrug>
At the end of the day, and IMVHO, a drow noble is such a "special snowflake" (cubed) that it would kill any sense of party unity. For me.
But hey, I'm old school. YMMV.
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You are incorrect Genie. According to the people who wrote the book, the Drow Noble is meant more to be a template applied to a Drow character. It was included as an example of how to build a monstrous race. In addition it is highly recommended by the designers to be a +2 CR!
If you want to play it, then you should allow others to build any other race that is 41 points too.
Some Other Guy. Their ability scores are worth 4 rp.
Also everything you said can and is possible in humans.
The arguement of "well they are monsters so they would be attacked on sight." So does that mean goblins and orcs can never ever be played?
Except according to a post on here appearantly they said the cr=class level is what they wanted.
Then how are they playable i mean should all races have a level adjust except humans even thought i think that bonus feat should be delayed a level or two.
My point being how do so many suggest races of anything but the baselines. None of which work together.
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"I'm gonnna play a Drow Noble!" sounds to most of us just like "I'm gonna play a Cyber-Vampire-Ninja-WereTiger with an Adamantine Katana!"
I don't mean to break out name calling, but Munchkin alarms go off at mere mention of "Drow Noble".
it was suggested upthread that Drow Nobles would be best appropriate as an ALL Drow Noble party. If maturely done, a Menzoberranzan-like campaign would be awesome.
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High Concept:
Player: Ninja Jesus?
GM: No.
Player: Cyborg Pirate Ninja Jesus!
GM: <facepalm>
Then how are they playable i mean should all races have a level adjust except humans even thought i think that bonus feat should be delayed a level or two.
Most of the races, while not perfectly equal have a rough equivalence. Particularly in the stat line area, but also in their additional abilities. The normal drow for instance, I think mechanically falls into the scale of the other pc races maybe a bit on the high side because of it's spell resistance. Other then thematic issues, I dont mind the drow as a pc race.
The drow noble has a rather high spell resistance, and effectively rediculous stats. +4dex, +2 int, +2 cha, +2 wisdom and -2 con. Thats basically a +6 over every other race and includes a +4 to a often cricial stat that isnt matched by any other race besides the relatively weak goblins. That is waaaay too high. While not all character concepts will take full advantage of all of that, its benefits are quite significant. It is simply too good to stand along side the other races without modification.
Thats why people howl. It doesnt fit power scale wise with everyone else, where as most of the other pcish races are roughly equivalent.
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I can see where the original poster is coming from.
People like the illusion of balance, is what it comes down to. If everyone is allowed to play drow nobles, or equivalent to drow noble races, then the group might not mind as much. To some, playing PCs that are above "20 point humans" suddenly seems less like the D&D they expect, and more like a fantasy superhero campaign. It can still be awesome, yet it might not be what the other players expect.
If I told everyone we were playing a superhero campaign, then a Superman like character wouldn't be a problem. Such a hero would even be expected. If we played Call of Cthulhu and most of the players made standard investigators while one player made Superman, the illusion of game balance is broken and I would expect most groups to rebel at the idea. These are very extreme examples, yet the magnification is to illustrate the problem.
In the end, your gaming group is a team. Everyone on the team wants to be on the same page and have fun. It just sounds like you enjoy a higher power level of play than the rest of your group is comfy with. No easy answers there.
The only time I've ever seen a player want to play a drow noble is when they wanted to min/max it, particularly it's spell-like abilities. In EVERY case of that happening, said players showed me this line of the Drow Noble entry:
...before asking to switch those out for things like at-will fireballs and magic missiles.
Yeah...no. Too damned powerful, particularly at low levels. And that's not even getting into the social stigma aspects of the race.
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It all depends on the campaign, and most GMs do not like to run campaigns that vary much from the power level expectations of published adventures. This is because it is easier to compare what a GM is doing to what the developers assume is balanced.
For me, I don't mind running power levels higher or lower than baseline. I do mind running campaigns where one player clearly has a very out of place character.
If I have a campaign that allowed players to run elder dragons with class levels, then I have a campaign tailored to that concept. Someone playing a normal human mage might not fit into the plan for such a group. I planned for a group of 3-5 very powerful characters with a certain set of abilities and a shared background that is likely important to the plot.
If I run a fantasy victim horror campaign that allows core book races with a 10 point stat array and the warning not to get attached to characters, I would highly discourage someone from playing a half-fiend fighter with rolled up stats. This example was a campaign meant to replicate cheesy horror films where victims are abundant, and players are allowed to make up new PCs on the fly. Not so much Army of Darkness; which humorously reverses that genre. Not that Army of Darkness was bad, it just wasn't the experience the group planned on.
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People mention in a lot of threads their Spell-Like Abilities, but you can gain them through feats. Their Stat adjust is not all that powerful unless you got dang lucky on a roll or are using an insanely high Point Buy.
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Just play a normal drow and ask your your GM for a better point buy and more feats than the other players.
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There are 2 Questions
1)Is Drow a reasonable race. In many campaigns races like Drow, Orc, Kobold etc will not work because they are likely to be attacked on sight by the local inhabitants in such a campaign it would take a lot of effort to justify to me why a Drow would be a reasonable character. Of course In another campaign Drow may be completely reasonable and Human a major problem.
2) Power level. The Drow Noble has
a)Very High stat bonus
b) Spell Resistance
c) can cast at will 1 3rd level , 1 2nd level ,2 1st level and 2 cantrips and has another cantrip constant they can also cast 1/day each 2 3rd and a 1st level spell
d) Standard elven immunites and drow weapon proficiencies
e)They have light blindness
They are Clearly the most powerful race in the ARG and most sane GM;s would consider it unfair to let 1 player play a Drow noble while the rest played humans , ordinary Drow and elves etc. You could run a high powered game were everyone plays Drow Nobles or similar, or you could start the game off at higher level and drop some levels off the Drow noble(not a normal pathfinder rule as ECL never worked in 3.5), or you may find a group were the players do not mind playing characters of wildly different power levels .
All of the above are why most sensible GM's would say no to a Drow noble character even if they would allow a drow character.
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People mention in a lot of threads their Spell-Like Abilities, but you can gain them through feats. Their Stat adjust is not all that powerful unless you got dang lucky on a roll or are using an insanely high Point Buy.
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Just play a normal drow and ask your your GM for a better point buy and more feats than the other players.
This.
Ask all the other players first if it is ok for you to start as a Drow but get better point buy (or more dice to roll) and an extra 3-5 feats.
Wonder how many of those players will say it is ok?
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The race builder is a great idea... But it's very poorly done. The point cost of each racial ability is dubious to say the least and for some reason there are prerequisites for abilities...
That said, Drow Nobles are very powerful. Considerably more powerful than most other PC races. I wouldn't allow it for a normal game.
If you want a balanced race, play the normal drow.
I don't understand how you don't understand xD.
Are you looking at some other drown noble template from the rest of us?
Summed up a drow noble is:
+4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2con. For a total bonus of +8 points in ability scores, an increase of 6 points over the average number. That alone is worth +1 CR.
Then they get SR innately, giving many casters and monsters a less then 50% chance to afflict them with a spell and a very decent chance for even higher level creatures to have their spells negated. This is a scaling ability so it never becomes marginalized like many racial skill bonuses are. A bonus feat rarely scales with level, a weapon familiarity does not scale. Skill bonuses dont scale, this thing scales like heck.
Finally the noble gets several spell-likes, including a variety of spells at will (notably Deeper darkness, at will!) and a couple of very powerful spells, suggestion and dispel magic, once per day each. And i haven't even mentioned the other less useful spells they get too.
If you allow this as a 2nd level character (Cr +1) that means the other players are sitting with a guy who can cast a variety of spells continuously at will, as well as a couple of strong 3rd level spells, has a higher number of ability score bonuses and is partially immune to some of the deadliest attacks and hardest conundrums in the game.
If you allow this as a 3rd level character (Cr +2) that means the player is gimping himself out of a lot of HP, class abilities, SP and a feat, a more balanced trade for what the noble gets, but still not a very balanced trade since this character is sacrificing a lot of survivability for a few extra tricks up his sleeve.
In my opinion you should'nt allow Drow nobles due to the explanation above, but if a player insists i'dd say the latter of the 2 above. Niche choices should slightly hold back the player, not let them run amok.
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There are 2 Questions
1)Is Drow a reasonable race. In many campaigns races like Drow, Orc, Kobold etc will not work because they are likely to be attacked on sight by the local inhabitants in such a campaign it would take a lot of effort to justify to me why a Drow would be a reasonable character. Of course In another campaign Drow may be completely reasonable and Human a major problem.
Thank you, I'm glad someone else realizes this.
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The arguement of "well they are monsters so they would be attacked on sight." So does that mean goblins and orcs can never ever be played?Yes. Yes it does.
No, no it doesn't. Completely campaign dependent.
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Title pretty much sums up my question. Why do people freak out when you mention Drow Noble.
People mention in a lot of threads their Spell-Like Abilities, but you can gain them through feats. Their Stat adjust is not all that powerful unless you got dang lucky on a roll or are using an insanely high Point Buy.
And to be honest I have both played as a Drow Noble (Gunslinger Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger before Errata) and while I did very good damage I didn't OP the game and make everyone else useless. And I have played DM to a Drow Noble Ranger and a Drow Noble Rogue in the same game. They where a little difficult to adjust to at first but quickly fell into line. (Pretty new at the DM thing when this happened)
Humans get a free bonus feat, which they can take to start lines of feats far earlier then the rest of the party. If one argument that is common is true, Feats are a precious resource. You can spend class level feats to gain racial aspects via race feats, and magical items boost ability scores but being able to throw on that second or third feat at level 1 seems pretty darn powerful. So why does no one say Humans are OP?
I feel like quoting Joker from The Dark Knight movie but I would butcher the lines, but he mentions it pretty well about if things go according to plan no one freaks out, but the moment you throw a little chaos in, a little thing that was not expected or known people freak out. I feel this applies to this. We all know Humans, they are common and we have all played or seen them played so they don't freak us out. But Drows for a long time where a monster race pure and simple, now we have the CR 1/3 (Same as humans btw) Drow and even then I hear people complaining about how powerful they are. Now throw in their CR 1 Big Brother the Noble Drow and all heck breaks loose.
So why is that?
Why do people freak if they see a person sit down and show their Drow Noble Swashbuckler or Fighter or Bard, Etc character sheet?
The first problem is the stat array.
+4 Dex, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution.
This is +6 above most races, +4 above Asimar which many people already consider very powerful.
Second, SR as a base ability without having to give anything up is something that is not a common racial trait. While it can be very bad when someone tries to heal you, it's also extremely powerful.
Third, detect magic as a constant is also very powerful. They have a very impressive list of spells they can cast at will in addition to multiple once a day spells. Most races are lucky to have a single once a day spell, let alone multiple at will and once a day spells. Most player races don't end up with a constant spell.
Drow nobles also have Poison Use, normally a class ability.
Even Jason Buhlman stated that Drow nobles should be one level lower than characters of standard races due to any number of these benefits.
Just using the Drow feat chain from advanced Class Guide instead of the bestiary entry, it's still a fairly powerful race.
These following two statements are from the Advanced Race Guide. Further, this is specifically about regular drow.
"Drow seldom make themselves known to surface
folk, preferring to remain legends while advancing their
sinister agendas through proxies and agents"
"Drow have a strong sense of racial superiority
and divide non-drow into two groups: slaves, and those
that are not yet slaves."
This is a section devoted to how the surface dwelling elves feel about the drow from pathfinderwiki (sources are referenced there).
"The Lantern Bearers are a secret elven organization founded after their return to Golarion from the refuge in Sovyrian in 2632 AR.[1][2] They describe their aim as “To be a light against the coming darkness”, but their goals are far more prosaic: the containment and eradication of their people's most shameful secret: the existence of the drow.[2]"
At least for me there is one further factor; An over saturation of a certain drow who popularized the concept of a good surface dwelling drow.
So to summarize, if a player comes to me and asks to play a drow, let alone a noble drow, there is a whole check list I'm going over in my head. Is this game on the surface? Are drow active in the region on the surface. How many noble drow are in the area. How many of these would venture to the surface. How is it possible that a single lone drow could have escaped indoctrination, made it to the surface and not have been killed on sight.
*edit: There is also one more thing on the checklist, how much is this an attempt to Munchkin
Ok which one is it.
Either they are killed on sight for being a drow.
Or
They dont know what a drow is and thus wouldnt randomly kill them.
