Look, I think it is a fine house rule. I wouldn't mind seeing it clarified that this is possible.
But with the rules as written, the 3.5 FAQ has no validity and neither does JJ's statement, I see no reason to say that the presence of difficult terrain along the charge doesn't prevent your ability to charge (even if you might be able to jump over it). The way it is written having to jump basically prevents you from making a proper charge by interrupting your movement and momentum. If the rules team ever comments on the topic and even simply says that the 3.5 FAQ is still valid then I will have no problem with it. But without such action it is not supported within the rules.
Jumping does not interrupt your movement. At all. You could double move for a total of 60', in the manner of move 10', jump 10', move 10', jump 10', move 10', jump 10' and be perfectly fine assuming you succeeded at all your acrobatics checks. You continue to assert that jumping hinders movement somehow. It doesn't. If you still think it does, I'd appreciate a rules citation for why.
With this level of literalism, how can you overrun as part of a charge? Charge says you must make an attack at the end, but overrun says that you move through the opponents square. But charge says you can't charge through a square another creature occupies. How can it be?
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Where does it say you can? Without that FAQ from 3.5 there is nothing to imply that you should be able to. And Pathfinder rule set is based around telling you what you are allowed to do, not what aren't allowed to do. If it is not written as being allowed, it isn't allowed (without DM intervention).I would be fine if jumping were allowed in a charge, .Where in the book say that you can not jump while charging?
I am sorry Claxon, that is kind of a BS argument (and one that is also overused). There are plenty of actions that are not described in the book. It is absurd to say that every adjudication a GM has to make is house rule territory.
The bit about the 5ft trench stopping the monk charging a target 200ft away still needs to change.Nope -- if he needs to jump, he can't run at full speed, and therefore can't charge. (Look at any Olympic jumper to see how you have to adjust your stride to get the takeoff properly.)
Wrong sport to look at. Try Olympic Hurdles [video]. Those folks run flat out and use acrobatics to negate obstacles. Lesser folk run and fail to clear them.
I favor jumping allowed to make a charge work.
/cevah
I think I'd actually lean against allowing the jumping during a charge, as I find a lot more situations where it wouldn't make sense than it would. For instance, you can go between normal movement and climbing during a normal turn, but I wouldn't allow it during a charge. I also wouldn't allow an acrobatics check to move through an enemy's square to continue a charge, even though it's normally allowed.
The difference here is that both of these hinder movement.
Climbing slows you down unless you have a climb speed. Also, climbing is unlikely to be in a straight line if combined with regular movement.
The difference here is that both of these hinder movement.I think I'd actually lean against allowing the jumping during a charge, as I find a lot more situations where it wouldn't make sense than it would. For instance, you can go between normal movement and climbing during a normal turn, but I wouldn't allow it during a charge. I also wouldn't allow an acrobatics check to move through an enemy's square to continue a charge, even though it's normally allowed.
Agreed, climbing slows movement. You are not allowed to charge through an occupied square, ally or enemy. Additionally, acrobats to move through an enemy square also slows your movement.
I'll be honest, sometimes I feel the need just to play devil's advocate just so not everyone in a thread agree and see if I can generate more/better interesting arguments.
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If you could not jump as part of a charge, the Janni Rush feat would not function.
Wait, I'm confused. Why would moving through a threatened square prevent charging at all? If you use the increased Acrobatics DC to not slow down, where's the problem?
Charging is not a "full tilt", pell-mell sprint at the target. You're not running. You're not defenseless when charging. Running deprives you of your DEX to AC, specifically because you're forgoing any focus on defense other than haul backside. You're still mindful of defense when charging. So why can't you incorporate a defensive tactic into your charge if doing so does not slow you down or impede your progress?
If Charging was a full on sprint, you'd lose DEX to AC like you do when running.
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If you could not jump as part of a charge, the Janni Rush feat would not function.
Good point.
The text for ease of discussion:
While using Janni Style, you are always considered to have a running start when jumping. Further, if you jump as part of a charge and make an unarmed strike against the designated opponent, a hit allows you to roll the unarmed strike's damage dice twice and add the results together before adding modifiers (such as from Strength) or extra dice (such as precision-based damage or dice from weapon abilities). The extra damage dice are not multiplied on a successful critical hit.
(Bolded for emphasis)
It seems like the idea of jumping during a charge is supported within the PF Rules.
Just thought I'd mention this Pirate archetype feature
At 2nd level, a pirate incorporates a ship’s masts, rigging, ropes, sails, and other such structures into her combat style. Provided she is wearing light armor or no armor, when fighting in an environment where such structures exist, the rogue incorporates them into her movement, and does not have to move in a straight line when making either a charge attack or bull rush combat maneuver. Once she completes her attack or maneuver, she can reposition herself. Immediately after making the charge or bull rush, she can move 5 feet as a free action, even if the charge ends her turn. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
I think it's cute there's a way to charge in not a straight line.
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If you could not jump as part of a charge, the Janni Rush feat would not function.Good point.
The text for ease of discussion:
While using Janni Style, you are always considered to have a running start when jumping. Further, if you jump as part of a charge and make an unarmed strike against the designated opponent, a hit allows you to roll the unarmed strike's damage dice twice and add the results together before adding modifiers (such as from Strength) or extra dice (such as precision-based damage or dice from weapon abilities). The extra damage dice are not multiplied on a successful critical hit.(Bolded for emphasis)
It seems like the idea of jumping during a charge is supported within the PF Rules.
But you are running. You move at twice your speed and attack. Full out running is moving x4 your speed for a full round. Running for a full round and running for half a round is still running. You don't lose your dex bonus because they're defined differently. But moving 30' x4 over 6 seconds is the same as moving 30' x2 over 3 seconds.
Actually while moving through a threatened square you can increase the difficulty by 10 and still move at full speed. Per Acrobatics:
"When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. "
So I'd argue if you allow the jump during a charge, there isn't any reason not to allow moving through the threatened square, which again, seems very anti-Charge per the RAW.
And climbing I was actually thinking about Spider Climb, which gives a climb speed, but is still something I wouldn't think fits a charge. Otherwise, yes, climbing slows you down.
To me, a Charge is a full tilt, all in sprint that increases your momentum which in turn, gives you the plus to hit/minus to AC. Jumping doesn't increase your momentum the same way.
I guess there isn't any more clarification on Pounce then there is on Charge...
Thanks all.
You can freely move through allies spaces without any check and it doesn't hinder movement. It still prevents a charge.
There are a few things which are required to make a charge.
1) Have at least 10 feet to move.
2) If a square blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature, you can't charge.
Acrobatics with to move through an enemy square negates the blocks movement.
Acrobatics with a +10DC negates the slows movement.
Acrobatics cannot make the square no longer contain a creature, so you still can't charge. Same reason allies can block your charge, they simply get in the way too much.
But you are running. You move at twice your speed and attack. Full out running is moving x4 your speed for a full round. Running for a full round and running for half a round is still running. You don't lose your dex bonus because they're defined differently. But moving 30' x4 over 6 seconds is the same as moving 30' x2 over 3 seconds.
You are not running. You are charging. They are separate and distinct things, like making a full-round attack or deliver a coup de grace. They might seem similar because they can both do damage, but they are not the same.
You can double move, still go 60' and not take any penalty to dex. You can even do this not in a straight line. Double moves are not running.
Running is a full-round action. You cannot run for "half your round". There is Running as a full-round. And there is using a move action (or two) to move in a round. One is not the other.
But you are running. You move at twice your speed and attack. Full out running is moving x4 your speed for a full round. Running for a full round and running for half a round is still running. You don't lose your dex bonus because they're defined differently. But moving 30' x4 over 6 seconds is the same as moving 30' x2 over 3 seconds.If you could not jump as part of a charge, the Janni Rush feat would not function.Good point.
The text for ease of discussion:
While using Janni Style, you are always considered to have a running start when jumping. Further, if you jump as part of a charge and make an unarmed strike against the designated opponent, a hit allows you to roll the unarmed strike's damage dice twice and add the results together before adding modifiers (such as from Strength) or extra dice (such as precision-based damage or dice from weapon abilities). The extra damage dice are not multiplied on a successful critical hit.(Bolded for emphasis)
It seems like the idea of jumping during a charge is supported within the PF Rules.
(Did you mean to reply to my other post?)
I'm not sure where the moving 30' over 3 seconds comes from. It's not like move action necessarily take 3 seconds and standard actions necessarily take 3 seconds. And it's not like Charge is necessarily a move action and a standard action. It is a separate full round action that takes up your entire round of effort that combines moving and attacking, allowing you to move up to double your movement. Perhaps the movement takes 5 seconds and the attack at the end is rather abbreviated.
Doesn't really matter. You're not "running" when you make a charge. It's not a full on sprint, as was described.
Wait, I'm confused. Why would moving through a threatened square prevent charging at all? If you use the increased Acrobatics DC to not slow down, where's the problem?Apologies, I meant to highlight the part of Acrobatics that allows for the movement through enemy occupied squares, not just threatened. Same rule, additional +5 to the CMD of the enemy.
Janni Style seems to infer jumping is allowed, which makes me say all acrobatics attempts that don't hinder movement should be allowed. I don't see a "Charge" as being "I standing jump 5' over the pit, acrobatics through the next square where the zombie is, and charge the necromancer behind him." 10' moved, but none of it in actual base movement.
Allies don't slow your movement. You still cannot charge through them, as there is a creature in the space. Using acrobatics to move through a space with an enemy creature falls in the same bucket. It might not slow your movement, but it still prevents a charge. Unless you can negate the creature being in the space, it is a full stop you cannot charge. Not being able to charge through an allies square shows that.
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Here's what I've picked up so far:
- Dragon Style allows you to charge through difficult terrain
- Janni Style allows you to be "always considered to have a running start when jumping." and mentions "Further, if you jump as part of a charge..."
- Charging requires you to be able to move 10ft to start off with
- the "Run" action only designates how you can move up to 4x your speed, it has no restriction on how far you "need" to run. Basically, you have to move in a straight line.
- JJ's comment suggests you can jump during a charge.
- allies can block movement, thus can block a charge (but otherwise act as other obstacles, which presumably might be able to be high-jumped)
- when doing regular jumping, it doesn't impact movement anyway; it's just a skill check (this might not be relevant?)
- if jump-tumbling (through a threatened square) slows down movement, it can't be used as part of a charge; anything that slows down movement would stop a charge. increasing the tumble DC to move at full speed in a threatened square wouldn't stop a charge.
A lot of this seems to support jumping during a charge. The only real blocker is that the rule for charging in the CRB says you need a straight line - but that's a baseline rule. It can't incorporate all of these different scenarios, and Janni Style alone justifies that.
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I would be fine if jumping were allowed in a charge, but ignoring an FAQ from a game system that isn't the same and has only had 1 developer (and the creative director not rules teams) comment I don't find this as sufficient evidence. Let there be jumping charges! But first let there be either an FAQ for Pathfinder or let the erratta take place and the wording of charge be changed.
Until that time it is not supported within the existant rules, though it makes a perfectly suitable house rule.
Jumping is a part of movement, and movement is a part of charging.
There is no conflict between charging and jumping.
- if jump-tumbling (through a threatened square) slows down movement, it can't be used as part of a charge; anything that slows down movement would stop a charge. increasing the tumble DC to move at full speed in a threatened square wouldn't stop a charge.
This is the only one I disagree with.
You cannot charge through an allied square, which doesn't slow movement.
Why would tumbling through an enemy (with increased DC to not slow movement) allow a charge?
Here is the relevant line from the charge section.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
Its not because tumbling slows movement that you can't charge through an enemy creature. Its because you cannot charge through ANY creature, even if it is an ally which doesn't slow your movement at all. Any creature blocks all charges through its space. No practical way around it. (Ethereal/incorporeal might be able to charge through creatures, but not much really can.)
Dragon style still wouldn't let you charge through an enemy square, even if you tumble with no movement penalty.
Sorry, I read through enemy square. My bad.
You can't charge through difficult terrain either, but if something lets you ignore difficult terrain, you can charge. Likewise, you can't charge through a square occupied by an enemy, however, if something lets you ignore the square occupied by an enemy, like acrobatics, you can charge.
Except its not because you can't move through the square that you can't charge through occupied squares, its because you cannot charge through an occupied square. Acrobatics effectively treats the square like they were your ally. They don't slow your movement (assuming you upped the DC) and they can't make an attack on you. But the square is still occupied.
Even dragon style and acrobatics can't let you charge through an enemy occupied square.
It does if you can jump high enough.
Even ...and acrobatics can't let you charge through an enemy occupied square.
If you jump enough to make it over their square, then now your charge isn't in a straight line. /s
That gets slippery though, since jumping is allowed when charging. If that's true, then rolling too high on a jump attempt suddenly invalidates your charge.
Indeed, thus the sarcasm indicator.
If you jump enough to make it over their square, then now your charge isn't in a straight line. /sWell if you're charging on a round planet there is a very small curve in any charge lane anyway - :P
Sure, but the grid is built on that curve also, so you aren't changing squares. I'm totally fine with jumping during a charge, but once you start high jumping to get into different squares to avoid people in the way is where I'm not sure if you're charging in a straight line anymore.
Indeed, thus the sarcasm indicator.
Hadn't had coffee yet, the /s completely failed to register.
The feat Charge Through provides a way to charge through squares containing enemies.
Regarding jumping over obstacles:
We've had a lot of discussions in our area about jumping obstacles on a charge. Since Janni Style says you can jump as part of a charge, it seems like you should be able to jump over obstacles while charging, but the rules say your path must be clear.
We've been using the following compromise: If your Acrobatics bonus is high enough that you can beat the jump DC on a natural 1, then you can jump the obstacle on a charge. If you can't possibly fail the jump, it doesn't seem like it counts as an obstacle.
So most characters could probably jump a 5 ft gap or a bench or something on a charge (that would be the equivalent of hurdle races.) Dex based characters could easily clear a 10-15 foot gap on a charge (like in Parkour).
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Regarding jumping over obstacles:
...Since Janni Style says you can jump as part of a charge, it seems like you should be able to jump over obstacles while charging, but the rules say your path must be clear.
This is a good point of reference (except that it is the Janni Rush feat that mentioned jumping during a charge:
Janni Rush (Combat)
When you leap to the attack, your blows are like bolts from on high.Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Janni Style, Janni Tempest, Acrobatics 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 8 ranks.
Benefit: While using Janni Style, you are always considered to have a running start when jumping. Further, if you jump as part of a charge and make an unarmed strike against the designated opponent, a hit allows you to roll the unarmed strike's damage dice twice and add the results together before adding modifiers (such as from Strength) or extra dice (such as precision-based damage or dice from weapon abilities). The extra damage dice are not multiplied on a successful critical hit.
The phrasing above does appear to be general statement instead of something that is specific to the feat. While this does not a rule make, it does provide support that jumping during a charge is acceptable.