Hi guys,
sorry to bother you but i've a simple but not so obvious question.
I know that the TWF Feats-Chain is inferior to the standard way "Power Attack with one big weapon" because of the damage output.
But, theoretically, with a Rogue we can make TWF viable thanks to Sneak Attack and maybe the use of Slashing Grace (with Shortsword).
Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Let's build a simple rogue (level 7)
BAB: 5
Dexterity: 20 (+5)
2x Shortsword +1
Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
Melee: (not flanking) +12 or +10/+10 - (flanking) +14 or +12/+12
Damage (no SA): 1d6 (shortsword) + 1 (enhancement bonus) + 5 (dexterity) for each attack and each weapon = 9.5
Damage (with SA): 1d6 (shortsword) + 1 (enhancement bonus) + 5 (dexterity) + 4d6 (sneack attack) for each attack and each weapon = 23.5
Ok now, without considering all the issues about getting sneack attack, i'm wondering if the TWF route is viable not only on the paper, cause it has two great problem:
1) Getting full attack: obviously is quite hard getting full attack in the right position, and without full attacking we lose a lot. Despite that we still are able doing some decent damage thanks to Slashin Grace even with just one attack (assuming SA).
2) Hitting: this is my biggest problem. Reading in the forum peaple say it will be to hard to sustain the penalty of TWF with a class with 3/4 BAB and no way of improving the "to hit" roll. We can only use Weapon Focus and the weapon enhancement bonus (flanking is conditional as feinting) and i don't know if it will be enough.
So i'd like to know your experiences about the hitting problem with TWF, cause by now i'm quite confused and don't know if it will be a bad choice follow the TWF route (starting at lvl. 7).
Thanks in advance.
The only advice I can give is in concern to your weapon choice, slashing grace refers to the one handed category of weapons, which the shortsword is not, and it requires a slashing weapon, which the shortsword is piercing.
You're right :)
I forgot to mention it is a concession from my DM to remove Slashing Grace's prerequisites in term of weapon choice (not the one about Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus).
Thanks a lot.
The idea of TWF with rogue-types is pretty old. Any class that can add modifiers or extra dice to each attack benefit from extra attacks (sneak attack or favored enemy, for example).
Slashing grace is definitely a bonus. And if I read it right the +dex isn't halved for the off hand? Might want to check with your GM if he's already handwaved the weapons (which is very fair, I believe).
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I mathed out TWF feat chain earlier on someone elses post. According to math, the only time TWF is inferior to not TWF is when you need to roll an 18 exactly to hit (with not TWF).
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I know rogues get a bad rap around here, but they can be viable in a game. It depends on the table, and how well the player knows the game. If your GM is the type to be somewhat lenient, and you are not sitting at a table with optimizers the rogue should be ok. Otherwise I would suggest slayer(if allowed) or another class that fits the background.
Also make sure you have a willing flanker to help you get sneak attack off, and be sure to do something about your fort and will saves.
PS:You can actually do the same if not more damage with a rogue by using a two handed weapon.
I mathed out TWF feat chain earlier on someone elses post. According to math, the only time TWF is inferior to not TWF is when you need to roll an 18 exactly to hit (with not TWF).
And vs hardness or DR you have to overcome.
I mathed out TWF feat chain earlier on someone elses post. According to math, the only time TWF is inferior to not TWF is when you need to roll an 18 exactly to hit (with not TWF).And vs hardness or DR you have to overcome.
Out of the races for rogues, halflings are the most viable to overcoming hardness and DR.
Thanks for the answers guys, i really appreciate :)
Ok, i'll try to answer your questions now:
Before going into any detail I have to ask: Why do you want to take the rogue class when other classes fill the fluff as good but are mechanically stronger?
I've played a rogue as my first 3.5 character, so it's more like something i'd like to re-try, also because we've rebuild our old 3.5 party. I'm not interested in optimizing, but since TWF is quite intensive as build, i'd like to avoid wasting so many feats on it if it's not entirely worth.
The group with whom i'm playing is more fun-oriented than min-maxing, but still i'll have to be useful :)I mathed out TWF feat chain earlier on someone elses post. According to math, the only time TWF is inferior to not TWF is when you need to roll an 18 exactly to hit (with not TWF)
That's a relief to hear. My only doubt is that if avoiding the TWF feat chain, in a situation like that (hitting on a 18) i could've done something else.
Slashing grace is definitely a bonus. And if I read it right the +dex isn't halved for the off hand? Might want to check with your GM if he's already handwaved the weapons (which is very fair, I believe)
Yep, i talked it throught with the DM and we decided it won't be halved for the off hand.
I know rogues get a bad rap around here, but they can be viable in a game. It depends on the table, and how well the player knows the game. If your GM is the type to be somewhat lenient, and you are not sitting at a table with optimizers the rogue should be ok. Otherwise I would suggest slayer(if allowed) or another class that fits the background.
Also make sure you have a willing flanker to help you get sneak attack off, and be sure to do something about your fort and will saves.
PS:You can actually do the same if not more damage with a rogue by using a two handed weapon.
I've read a lot of post expressing the rogue bad rep :)
About the new Advanced Classes i prefer the Investigator over the Slayer, and sure i'll give them a try maybe in future, after i fail/succed with the rogue.Concerning the flanking buddy i've an angry barbarian with whom flank.
I agree about the more damage output given by the THW route, and i've read in a post here, lot of powerful build that way. It's just i can't make it fulfill my ideas of rogue :)
Out of the races for rogues, halflings are the most viable to overcoming hardness and DR.
I'm a bit confused here, how are supposed halflings to help against hardness and DR? (sorry i'm still a bit new to PF)
Thanks again to all. I owne you a debt ^^
I mathed out TWF feat chain earlier on someone elses post. According to math, the only time TWF is inferior to not TWF is when you need to roll an 18 exactly to hit (with not TWF).
I'ma have to see that math because from any perspective I can look at it, a couple of hits that might hit are better than a bunch of hits that ain't touching what you're aiming at.
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When you have precision damage - such as sneak attack - is really the only time TWF is better than two-handed.
At least - that was true before slashing grace. The face that your DM is allowing it to apply to everything makes TWF kinda OP. Especially if you're getting full dex damage in your off hand.
Normally to get slashing grace along with TWF you need to both dip into Swashbuckler & use sawtoothed sabres. And it takes an extra feat to get full dex damage in your off hand.
So basically - your DM is changing the rules in your favor.
The problems with slashing grace applying to shorts swords are over stated. Simply use a gladius instead of a short sword. They cost 5 extra GP and count as a short sword for all feats and abilities.
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The problems with slashing grace applying to shorts swords are over stated. Simply use a gladius instead of a short sword. They cost 5 extra GP and count as a short sword for all feats and abilities.
Slashing grace doesn't work with the gladius either. The gladius is a light weapon. Slashing grace only works with one-handed weapons.
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If you pick a half-elf as your race, you can take the alternate racial trait that gives you exotic weapon proficiency. Pick up Sawtooth Sabre.
Then, if you pick the Swashbuckler archetype, you can get proficiency in Longbows, as well as the option to take the Combat Trick talent twice, which will help with meeting feat prerequisites and getting the ones you need.
You lose trapfinding, but can get it back with a trait. Can't remember the name atm.
You'll want to find a way to increase your accuracy, so whenever you can, make sure either you or your flanking buddy gets some Menacing weapons.
I undestand what you're saying about Slashing Grace and i'll talk again with the DM to see if he prefer half the damage of the off-hand.
But let's skip it for a moment and suppose i'm going to build a character for PFS, so that i won't pick Slashing Grace.
It will be still viable go TWF (relying on flanking and Two-Weapon Feint) or i'll face too high AC. Cause in this scenario i'll try to build a better rounded character (not focusing all my feats on TWF) and not a one trick pony with a flourish of misses :)
Again, thanks for the patience and suggestions!
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It will be still viable go TWF (relying on flanking and Two-Weapon Feint) or i'll face too high AC. Cause in this scenario i'll try to build a better rounded character (not focusing all my feats on TWF) and not a one trick pony with a flourish of misses :)
Yes - if you have someone that'll flank with you - TWF is the way to go with rogues & ninjas. Especially good if you have someone a bit on the defensive side to flank with as they won't mind moving to flank themselves so that you can get a full attack.
Ranged ninjas can be okay with vanishing trick, but lacking something similar rogues generally have to rely upon flanking to get sneak attack semi-consistently.
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If you're going to devote resources to two-weapon fighting, you NEED to commit. It's a very feat intensive fighting style, and can go HORRIBLY wrong if you don't fully commit to it, even for non-rogues.
I know it's not as fun, but if you want a less intensive combat style, pick up the Scout archetype and go for a two-handed weapon. It isn't very feat intensive (high strength and Power Attack, plus maybe Furious Focus, are all you need). With only two awesome feats, you can spend those others on different things, like shoring up your saving throws, or investing in teamwork feats with your friends if they're up for it. This isn't really a matter of damage or accuracy; it's what you want to accomplish. If you don't take the time and effort to invest in two-weapon fighting to make it useful, you won't feel useful, and if you really want to be a more diverse party member, then you'll need those feats for more useful things, which means that the simplest effective fighting style is probably going to be the most fun.
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I know it's not as fun, but if you want a less intensive combat style, pick up the Scout archetype and go for a two-handed weapon.
At low levels when you have low sneak attack - yes, the damage will be higher. Or if you have bad flank buddies.
Though of note - the AC of a two-handed rogue is gonna suck. Unlike a finesse/TWF rogue, who is focused on dex, a two-handed rogue will inherently focus on strength, letting his dex, and therefore AC, fall by the wayside.
And if the DM is allowing slashing grace with light weapons, there's really no reason to go two-handed.
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Yes... except that a lower dexterity opens up armor options for stronger armor. And yes, at lower levels you do more damage, but you're also more Accurate at higher levels, and benefit more from extra attacks granted by allies, as via Haste, etc.
True, if you have plenty of static bonuses from allies, Two-Weapon Fighting is an easy choice to make. Put Bard and a Freebooter Ranger in the party and it's a no-brainer. But a Two-Hander is way less feat intensive, and remains useful for solid damage when flanking and sneak attack aren't an option. The less Feat intensive part is the one I'm focusing on, because if the OP really wants some diversity, then feats will do that for him, and two-weapon fighters just need too many feats to be diverse.
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Yes... except that a lower dexterity opens up armor options for stronger armor. And yes, at lower levels you do more damage, but you're also more Accurate at higher levels, and benefit more from extra attacks granted by allies, as via Haste, etc.
For a fighter I totally agree with you. However, a rogue is limited to light armor anyway. The heaviest armor they can get is a mithril breastplate (either after taking proficiency or burning a trait on -1 armor penalty) and that requires a +5 dex bonus to get the most out of.
If your GM allows light weapons, you may want to use Kukri and get the Butterfly's Sting feat to pass off crits to other martial classes in your party.
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Yuck you know what you started?
Whats wrong with building a butterfly sting partner for the barbarian? Let the Barb take the critical damage from your high crit weapon? Sneak attack Is not multiplied on a critical so pass in your extra 5-9 damage to a guy who can get bigger crit numbers seems the way to go.
High critical weapon using you dex...perhaps piranha strike/power attack. If you can get arcane strike all the better.
Perhaps a vulpine pounce, butterfly sting character would be fun to pair with a barbarian. Ask him to carry a ×4 critical weapon.
I typically have witnessed too many problems with TWF on rogues.
Thanks agai for the effort.
Some answers:
... Butterfly's Sting ...
Butterfly's Sting is an amazing feat and i like it a lot in a situation as the one you described. It is on a "Non Core" Book, so i'll have to ask my DM, but thanks a lot for the suggestion since i like it very much.
... what you said ...
I agree with both of you and you give me a lot of things upon wich reflect. I started liking the idea of not being just "the guy with two sword", despite being effective as for what has been said in this post, also with the great help of Slashing Grace.
But still i don't like wearing an heavy armor and using STR, so i'm thinking about going for a single elegant weapon (rapier maybe) and focusing on intimidate, perform. feint, disarm, trip (still have to choose). Seems rather a most versatile and fun kind of character.
Still have to write down the sheet, but it seems an intriguing idea.
Its viable altought underwhelming probably
You know slashing grace dont work on shortswords right? you need sawtooth sabres for this
Yes i know and it was a concession from my DM wich i forget to say.
Thanks for the tip :)
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I find TWF fighting it fine but don't bother wasting feats on greater TWF. I'd even say Improved isn't worth it. You can't get Improved till level 9 and at that time you are starting to see monsters with higher AC. By level 15 you get greater TWF fighting but you will 20s to hit CR appropriate encounters. The encounters with the lower AC will be lower CR and you will kill them with out need of greater TWF.
I mean assume you start with 18 in Dex raise to 22 with level bonuses. Add +6 belt to get it to 28. +9 to and +12 BAB at 16th level for +20. Add in Weapon Focus and +5 magic for +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17.
Now you get attacked by grounded Ancient White Dragon only to find it has AC of 41. That's the base 37 plus shield spell. As well it has displacement going to for 50% miss chance. You need a 14 or higher and you need to be in flanking position or you attack is 2 lower. If you do hit it's 50/50 that it misses. This is considered an average encounter.
Lets say you flanking partner is a Barbarian. That Barbarian will have +37/+32/+27/+22 while power attacking. If that seems to be problem they can go +42/+37/+32/+27 doing less damage and not taking a -5. Both your AC will be pretty similar though Barbarian could be lower but the barb could 10 DR/- by this point.
The only thing the rogue is doing in this fight is providing the Barbarian +2 flanking bonus.
My own experience tells me that TWF is fun, rolling that extra attack and having the potential to deal double sneak attacks makes it interesting.
However, a 3/4 BAB coupled with -2 for TWF generally means the TWF rogue is going to whiff a lot.
So - if you're comfortable with a less than stellar attack bonus, go TWF because its more fun. If you want to be a reliable damage dealer, go THF with a reach weapon (and the scout archetype as someone mentioned up thread is great too.)
I mathed out TWF feat chain earlier on someone elses post. According to math, the only time TWF is inferior to not TWF is when you need to roll an 18 exactly to hit (with not TWF).I'ma have to see that math because from any perspective I can look at it, a couple of hits that might hit are better than a bunch of hits that ain't touching what you're aiming at.
It holds up with my calculations, too; I've also done similar scenarios with Rapid Shot/Flurry and Deadly Aim/Power Attack.
Statistically, if you have above a 35% chance to hit, the additional damage from the extra attack (or from Deadly Aim/Power Attack) makes up for the increased missed chance. At 25% to 35%, you're about equal, and at 20% and below, you're better off not using the extra attack or Power Attack.
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I mathed out TWF feat chain earlier on someone elses post. According to math, the only time TWF is inferior to not TWF is when you need to roll an 18 exactly to hit (with not TWF).I'ma have to see that math because from any perspective I can look at it, a couple of hits that might hit are better than a bunch of hits that ain't touching what you're aiming at.It holds up with my calculations, too; I've also done similar scenarios with Rapid Shot/Flurry and Deadly Aim/Power Attack.
Statistically, if you have above a 35% chance to hit, the additional damage from the extra attack (or from Deadly Aim/Power Attack) makes up for the increased missed chance. At 25% to 35%, you're about equal, and at 20% and below, you're better off not using the extra attack or Power Attack.
For power attack/deadly aim, it isn't just based upon your accuracy, it also has to do with your average damage before said power attack/deadly aim.
Also - both are more useful at low levels. I know people go on and on about it scaling. The damage does. The overall benefit doesn't.
As you level, the damage goes up (numerical bonus) while the accuracy penalty also goes up (percentage decrease).
As for the TWF being useful so long as you can hit easier than an 18, that's only true so long as all other things are equal. (you aren't using a bigger weapon, no shield instead of TWF, no benefits from other feats etc)
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Why? I do not understand why it is important to have rogue written on your sheet when another class could do the same stuff and call himself rogue.Before going into any detail I have to ask: Why do you want to take the rogue class when other classes fill the fluff as good but are mechanically stronger?Sometimes you just want to play a rogue.
Other classes can all do some of the stuff better than a rogue can. Most of those other classes can't do all of the things a rogue can as well as a rogue can.
One of my favorite builds is based off of F4/R16, TWF build with weapon specialization in whatever weapon I decide to go with. It's not optimal, but I think it's fun.
So, to flip the script, why do you care so much if my sheet has rogue written on it if I have an interesting character idea that I'm excited about playing? It's not like I'm playing dead weight. I know how to be useful as a rogue. So what do you care?
for rogue on TWF:
-feat investment (with several taxes such as shadow strike you're already hurting)
-creates dependency on DEX, which requires yet more feat investment to make use of unless you plan to be MAD as all get-out (requiring str/dex/con/wis to function is the same stat-boat as the monk, hilariously)
-imposes an attack penalty that the rogue has no way to counteract, unlike literally every class not named 'monk'.
-3/4 BAB: this, paired with the above puts you squarely into "cant see s!~~ captain" territory on accuracy
-MUST be able to sneak attack or falls flat entirely--in a dark alley? nope. enemy not denied their dex? not happening mister. enemy has uncanny dodge? good luck with that. let's just not talk about enemies immune to precision damage, shall we?
all in all: bad idea.
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for rogue in general:
-mediocre defenses as a frontline combatant means you're very likely to die--or taken out of the fight entirely at minimum--from anything that forces a fort or will save (i.e. anything post-6th level, be it poisons, diseases, domination effects, various save-or-lose/save-or-die spells and SLAs, and so on)
-said defenses paired with the above combat problems would make it quite difficult to contribute meaningfully in combat that takes MAYBE five rounds at most.
this isn't touching on the problems plaguing rogue talents, since they're not pertinent to TWF stuff.
If you pick a half-elf as your race, you can take the alternate racial trait that gives you exotic weapon proficiency. Pick up Sawtooth Sabre.
Then, if you pick the Swashbuckler archetype, you can get proficiency in Longbows, as well as the option to take the Combat Trick talent twice, which will help with meeting feat prerequisites and getting the ones you need.
You lose trapfinding, but can get it back with a trait. Can't remember the name atm.
You'll want to find a way to increase your accuracy, so whenever you can, make sure either you or your flanking buddy gets some Menacing weapons.
Is this what you were trying to remember?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder
For power attack/deadly aim, it isn't just based upon your accuracy, it also has to do with your average damage before said power attack/deadly aim.I mathed out TWF feat chain earlier on someone elses post. According to math, the only time TWF is inferior to not TWF is when you need to roll an 18 exactly to hit (with not TWF).I'ma have to see that math because from any perspective I can look at it, a couple of hits that might hit are better than a bunch of hits that ain't touching what you're aiming at.It holds up with my calculations, too; I've also done similar scenarios with Rapid Shot/Flurry and Deadly Aim/Power Attack.
Statistically, if you have above a 35% chance to hit, the additional damage from the extra attack (or from Deadly Aim/Power Attack) makes up for the increased missed chance. At 25% to 35%, you're about equal, and at 20% and below, you're better off not using the extra attack or Power Attack.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Assuming all other things are equal (weapon size, strength bonus, etc.), your average damage increases with Power Attack or Deadly Aim until the attack penalty drops your chance to hit below 35%. It evens out at that point, and gets worse from there. I've seen this hold true for really every scenario I've run, from 1st to 12th level, ranged and melee, single and full attacking.
Also - both are more useful at low levels. I know people go on and on about it scaling. The damage does. The overall benefit doesn't.
As you level, the damage goes up (numerical bonus) while the accuracy penalty also goes up (percentage decrease).
It actually scales up pretty well, except for the break points (oddly enough). So up through level 7 (assume full BAB), PA/DA is beneficial. At level 8, it hurts your damage output, even dropping you behind the amount of damage you did at level 7. At level 9, it comes back to slightly positive, and then becomes actually beneficial at level 10 and 11. There's a drop in damage output again at level 12, but it's still positive. (I think this is because there's a simultaneous jump in the average creature's AC at CR 9 and CR 13, based on the Monster creation guidelines.)
As for the TWF being useful so long as you can hit easier than an 18, that's only true so long as all other things are equal. (you aren't using a bigger weapon, no shield instead of TWF, no benefits from other feats etc)
Well, since this was a thread on TWF, I assumed that all the other possibilities and options outside of TWF are irrelevant.
In context, I read Sarrah's comment to mean "you should always take the second attack unless the attack penalty means you need an 18 or better to hit". (I call it at a 17 or better, but that's probably because my spreadsheet takes it out to 3 or 4 decimal places. The difference in damage output between the two are negligible in the real world.)
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for rogue on TWF:
-feat investment (with several taxes such as shadow strike you're already hurting)
-creates dependency on DEX, which requires yet more feat investment to make use of unless you plan to be MAD as all get-out (requiring str/dex/con/wis to function is the same stat-boat as the monk, hilariously)
-imposes an attack penalty that the rogue has no way to counteract, unlike literally every class not named 'monk'.
-3/4 BAB: this, paired with the above puts you squarely into "cant see s+** captain" territory on accuracy
-MUST be able to sneak attack or falls flat entirely--in a dark alley? nope. enemy not denied their dex? not happening mister. enemy has uncanny dodge? good luck with that. let's just not talk about enemies immune to precision damage, shall we?
all in all: bad idea.
TWF has a feat investment. So? If you're really worried about feats, dip fighter. You can also pick up one or two relevant feats via rogue talents.
DEX reliance? That's sort of the iconic idea of the class, so I don't see the problem. Get Agile on your weapons and you're good to go.
Any character TWF has those attack penalties. Pair your weapons and get weapon training for weapon focus. You've just cut that penalty in half. *shrug*
3/4 BAB? That's why you don't generally plan on being the primary front line fighter as a Rogue. Sure, it can be done (not particularly well), but being a secondary fighter, acting as a flank buddy for the big damage dealer is just fine.
Building around Sneak? Yeah, that's situational. Hence, being a flank buddy. Not a ton of monsters are purely immune to sneak anymore. And for creatures with uncanny dodge and the like? Great. That's what Feint is for.
Is a TWF Rogue the optimal front line fighter build for damage dealing? No. And nobody has every claimed it is. That it is not the optimal front line fighter build for damage dealing doesn't mean it's not a perfectly functional build to play. I've played and seen TWF Rogues do just fine in parties as support combatants, then do just fine out of combat in other roles as well. And that's basically the point.
Does a TWF Rogue stack up to Wiz 20 or Cle 20? No. So what? Nothing does.
for rogue in general:
-mediocre defenses as a frontline combatant means you're very likely to die--or taken out of the fight entirely at minimum--from anything that forces a fort or will save (i.e. anything post-6th level, be it poisons, diseases, domination effects, various save-or-lose/save-or-die spells and SLAs, and so on)
-said defenses paired with the above combat problems would make it quite difficult to contribute meaningfully in combat that takes MAYBE five rounds at most.
this isn't touching on the problems plaguing rogue talents, since they're not pertinent to TWF stuff.
Things that can be dealt with. Nobody said the Rogue is the strongest class in the game. On balance, it's one of the weaker classes. Again, so what? It doesn't mean you can have a perfectly viable build and, more importantly, a perfectly good time playing that build.
If you don't like Rogues, don't play Rogues.
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TWF has a feat investment. So? If you're really worried about feats, dip fighter. You can also pick up one or two relevant feats via rogue talents.
DEX reliance? That's sort of the iconic idea of the class, so I don't see the problem. Get Agile on your weapons and you're good to go.
Any character TWF has those attack penalties. Pair your weapons and get weapon training for weapon focus. You've just cut that penalty in half. *shrug*
3/4 BAB? That's why you don't generally plan on being the primary front line fighter as a Rogue. Sure, it can be done (not particularly well), but being a secondary fighter, acting as a flank buddy for the big damage dealer is just fine.
All of these things separately would be fine, but combined they equal a s$*@storm of "bad idea".
Problem the 1st (and the biggest one): 3/4 BaB. At 10th level, you're at +7 base to-hit. This takes you down to +5 to-hit before other modifiers...that's as much as your average Wizard would be getting swinging a staff at the target.
Problem the 2nd: Needing to pay for two weapons puts you even further behind, since those enhancements are likely to be lower than someone with simply one. Which also eats into your funds for other necessary items like boosting saves and AC. The problem is exacerbated by:
Problem the 3rd: Dex reliance. Agile mitigates that...but cuts into your enhancement bonus even MORE.
Problem the 4th: The Rogue is the only 3/4 BaB class with no way to raise his to-hit via class features.
If you were simply a Dex based Rogue, it wouldn't be too bad. Dex based is already generally worse (because of the Feat and item tax required), but not so much worse that you can't deal with it.
If you were simply a 3/4 BaB character, TWFing wouldn't be too terrible, since you can at least use buffs of various kinds to raise yourself up to the to-hit of a full BaB character (or more) before tacking on penalties, and full BaB characters don't suffer TOO much from TWFing.
If you were any other Dex based 3/4 BaB TWFer, it would be bad, but potentially manageable.
But you're not. You're a Dex based TWFing Rogue. Possibly the least effective character you can make this side of a non-Bolt Ace Crossbow user. The perfect storm of garbage.
At level 10 you're probably sitting at a whopping +13 to-hit (+6 Dex, +7 BaB, +2 weapon, -2 TWFing), +14 with Weapon Focus. On your best hit.
That's a 50% chance (at best) of hitting most CR 10 creatures. Remember, at level 10 CR 10 is supposed to be an EASY encounter.
Which is why you shouldn't be parading around as your party's primary damage dealer. As a support combatant, it's fine.
Also, that's where the stealthing, feinting, UMDing, etc. can come in handy.
1) Getting full attack: obviously is quite hard getting full attack in the right position, and without full attacking we lose a lot. Despite that we still are able doing some decent damage thanks to Slashin Grace even with just one attack (assuming SA).2) Hitting: this is my biggest problem. Reading in the forum peaple say it will be to hard to sustain the penalty of TWF with a class...
At first do you have a reliable Flanking partner to pull off your Sneak Attack.
1) A Quickrunners Shirt is a cheap item, that could certainely help
2) Hitting can be hard, especially vs bosses. Does your party have buffers? Maybe a Bard or a buffhappy Cleric?
You might also consider picking up The Minor Magic Rogue Talent to qualify for Arcane Strike.
Also, while you are not a Knife Master Rogue, some of the tricks used in this guide will help you. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B703BEBAUgBxazQtQzFGU1g1R2M/edit?pli=1 , especially the feat choices could be useful for you
that guide appears to think you can grab the 'Feat' advanced talent before 10th level (the Shanker build takes it at 6th).
vicious stomp and greater trip were specifically noted to work together.