Kirin style does need Imp. Unarmed Strike, but say you are a human and take IUS and Weapon Finesse at level 1, then at level 7 you take Kirin Style and Level 9 Kirin Strike. That still leaves levels 3 and 5 for whatever other feats you might need. I'd advise against Arcane Strike since Kirin Style and Studied Combat are going to be eating up your swift actions.
The problem I see with kirin style is how long it takes to get going.
First round activate style, second round make knowledge check, third round you can now start dealing damage with it if you do not have anything else you need a swift action for.If you can start studied combat as swift I'd do that first so you will not use kirin style for another round. And if the opponent dies you have to start again with the knowledge check.
In many fights you will get little benefit from the kirin style line if used RAW.
If the GM allows entering a style out of combat or allow knowledge checks for creature types instead of single creatures this changes somewhat.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, Contributor
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Nice start on this!
Just a note on the support build: Eidetic Recollection requires level 11.
If you do get around to doing equipment, the benevolent armor enchantment and the gloves are arcane striking are useful and reasonably priced, even if aiding another isn't going to be your main focus.
I'll repost here... Probably get more thoughts as opposed to my thread lol...
I was looking at the Investigator and I love the theme of the class, especially when geared towards PFS. I had an idea and was curious if it would be a decent concept in PFS play, or if I would be wasting precious feats and traits.
The idea, would be a support character utilizing Dazzling Display combined with Bruising Intellect, Inspired Intimidator, and Enlarge Person. Granted, I won't be able to use Enlarge Person often for that extra +4 bonus to Intimidate; however, when using Dazzling Display I would toss on that extra Enlarge Person.
Other talents I'm looking at are; Effortless Aid (3rd level), Inspired Intimidator (5th), and then Inspired Expertise (7th). Early on (until I can finally afford an agile Sword Cane) I would basically be helping around in combat with Aid Another for bonuses to hit. And then when I hit 5th level and can pick up, therefore effectively use Dazzling Display, we'll throw that around now again for some extra debuffs to assist the combat folks.
Does this sound like a decent concept? Or am I going to end up not really assisting as much as I think I might with Dazzling Display? Any suggestions would be much appreciated!
I'm disappointed but not shocked that the ranged investigator doesn't appear to work out too well. You wouldn't call it worthless, would you?
Worthless? No. It's actualy very hard to be worthless with an investigator. You've got too much going for you in the foundations of the class.
As for all the dipping suggestions my thoughts on all dips are this: If you need to dip to make a concept work than either your mechanics or your strategy is already faulty. I don't like it. IF it works for you by all means do it. But, I've never seen nor felt the need to on any character I knew worked.
So an Investigator with the Effortless Aid Investigator Talent use his standard action, his move action and his swift action to aid the same check.
Now, it might not seem like much, but if an investigator is in a party with a sorcerer with the accursed bloodline or a witch with the coven hex, they can use aid another to modify caster level.
If you take the traits to to attempt to optimize aid another:Such as aid allies +1 to aid another,the helpful trait +1 to aid another,the helpful(halfling) that is +2 to aid another, and the fools for friends campaign trait for another +1 to aid another.
That's a +7 aid another bonus, there are others that boost certain uses of aid another further.
Now I know its is involving a specific party combination to pull this off but if you have an investigator 3/witch 1,sorcerer,1 or hexcrafter magus,you could potentially add up to +21 to another spellcasters caster level if they have the coven hex at level 4.
Even with out this very specific combo, effortless aid should probably be rated higher, It is just too damn usefull when you cannot do anything else.
At the very least, something like this should be mentioned in the builds section of the guide.
I actually mentioned this explicitly in the support investigator part. Halfling investigator's make amazing
I'm going to make a list of some major changes to the guide in terms of formatting and making it easier to edit when errata/faq makes changes to the class. So if you find any real errors please go ahead and let me know so I can add them to the list. I'll also consider an equipment section though no telling when I'll do it.
The thing about equipment sections I've come ot understand is that I prefer to work in guarantees. You're guaranteed to get feats, class features, and certian other things at certain levels. Equipment, even with WBL is more a guideline and not necessarily guaranteed making any advice I give less valuable. At best it cna point you in the right direction.
TarkXT, what do you think about the Dazzling Display build? Or do you feel there are better options for an investigator's actions in combat?
Sorry, I blatantly copied it from a previous post that I made out of pure laziness. The important thing from the post is how Effortless Aid interacts with someone who has the coven hex or an equivalent. +21 to caster level at level 4 is nothing to ignore in my opinion.
You could make those feelings clear in the beginning in friendly, bold letters? Would that help?
Huh?
I notice that none of your builds pick up Shadow Strike. I realise that Studied Strike is not as large a component of your damage as Sneak Attack is for Rogues but you are still giving up a fair amount of potential damage any time there is a bit of fog or dim light/darkness for non darkvision enabled races.
The damage is actually the weakest component of the ability. The real advantage is the great deal of attack you get.
But, the main reason I don't bother with shadow strike is that unlike a rogue an investigator has ways around such problems an extract away.
Situational feats are fine choices for Paragon Surge.
Most of the "cheese"(god I hate that term) has been errata'd out, so there is no need for anymore knee-jerk reactions.
I'll probably add it back in. I still don't like it.
It better be a deerstalker.You should probably look into some of the magic items made for Investigators as well. along with useful alchemical items.
If you don't have it yet by subscription, get the Advanced Class Origins Player Companion on the 22nd. I heard some of the options in there are pretty good. it even has a magic hat for Investigators. :)
Woot! It is!
So, is Fencing Grace good for Investigators?
It is if you wanna put an emphasis on combat, Dex-based, using a rapier, planning on getting an inspired rapier.
To get the Fencing Grace feat faster, I play a human investigator with Adopted Parentage (tengu) to get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat at level 1 in addition to the regular Weapon Finesse feat. I'm not a fan of level dipping into inspired blade. I feel I lose out on too much stuff outside of combat.
16 Int is good enough. Get Str back to 10. Str 8 light load of 26 lbs is gonna be death of your character if you can't even carry your own supplies.
Rapier = 2 lbs
Leather armor = 15 lbs
Alchemy crafting kit = 5 lbs
Formula book = 3 lbs
= 25 lbs at the very minimum.
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I'm still looking, and I really do think ranged investigator should not be discounted. Ranged Study, while a feat tax, gives you Studied Combat at any range, and the ability to Studied Strike within 30 ft. Since Studied Combat will be a large part of your attack routine, you're a 3/4 BAB class with half your level to attack and damage per shot. I'm a fan.
Thanks guys for the advice...
Do you have any advice on what trait should I take?
I will probably go with the campaign trait that gives a boost to the fortitude save (+1) for the other trait I was thinking about going for a will boost (+1) or the one that gives an initiative bonus (+2), what do you think?
There are several traits that allow you to use your int in place of your normal stat for some skills.
Precise Treatment: int to heal and a +1Pragmatic Activator: int to Use Magic Device
Bruising Intellect: int to intimidate
Clever Wordplay: Int to ANY one cha skill.
Student of Philosophy: int on Diplomacy checks to persuade others and on Bluff checks to convince others that a lie is true. This matches quite will with the Empiricist as it's int to Diplomacy checks made to gather information mean that you effectively just get int to Diplomacy checks period.
I'm still looking, and I really do think ranged investigator should not be discounted. Ranged Study, while a feat tax, gives you Studied Combat at any range, and the ability to Studied Strike within 30 ft. Since Studied Combat will be a large part of your attack routine, you're a 3/4 BAB class with half your level to attack and damage per shot. I'm a fan.
Oh I don't doubt it's effective.
I just don't think they're effective unless you're starting out as high level or don't care about being very combat effective for a while.
Two feat tax on a class that doesn't get bonus feats is rough. Very rough.
All for an effectiveness that's only out to 30ft. That's a dangerous range for a dedicated archer to operate in.
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It's not only effective at 30 feet though. Studied Combat works at any range; it's only Studied Strike that must happen within 30 feet. Obviously you're forcing human if you want to do this as fast as possible, but it just means that your level 5 feat is Ranged Study.
1 Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2
3 Mutagen, Rapid Shot
4
5 Quick Study, Ranged Study
We get a lowish damage archer using a shortbow, but with a 12 strength and 17 Dexterity to start you're still looking at +8/+8 (1d6+1/x3 plus 2) at range, and only getting better. At level 7 you can have picked up Deadly Aim or Arcane Strike with Minor Magic and suddenly you're doing absolutely fine.
Optimal at 30 feet is not the same as effective at 30 feet. It's still competing with the slayer for the best 'rogueish' archer.
One of the brawn builds has weapon focus at level 1, which should not possible until level 3 unless I'm missing something.
Human with Adoptive Parentage gets you Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
That build is for a half orcOne of the brawn builds has weapon focus at level 1, which should not possible until level 3 unless I'm missing something.Human with Adoptive Parentage gets you Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
Not sure then. Maybe the order is wrong. or I guess you could retrain the feat at second level.
You're looking at an old version that mistake has already been fixed in the newer one. Replaced it with Extra Inspiration.
1 Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2
3 Mutagen, Rapid Shot
4
5 Quick Study, Ranged Study
I think perhaps you skipped Weapon Focus? It's a prerequisite for Ranged Study.
I'm playing a level 10 half-orc empiricist investigator archer now. I was lucky to make him at level 10 where I finally have enough feats to make archery work out of the box rather than play him up from level 1 (which I think would be nigh unplayable), but I'm still missing feats I'd consider critical for a typical archer build - namely Clustered Shots and Deadly Aim. Studied Combat has excellent synergy with archery, but the complete lack of bonus feats makes it slow to come online.
Other than that I can say it's a really fun class to play! I started my first session completely disarmed for story line purposes, but was still able to make a viable combat threat while throwing improvised weapons (picks from a tool kit) because of the bonus damage from Studied Combat and Studied Strike.
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Just letting people know I made a rather significant change to the guide to make it easier to edit and let me actually see the people looking at the guide.
The newer guide is here. I'll be starting a new thread soon so the actual guide will be in the top.
Being Sherlock Holmes (Redux): A Gentleman's Guide to the Investigator
Guide [other link was broken]
/cevah
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I like the guide, but I feel like a lot of it's really only geared towards people who want to play with the alchemy bits. I made Ikari (my Investigator) a skill junkie because one of our PFS GMs is running Emerald Spire and I figured a giant underground magic tower was gonna need some serious skill checks. That said I plan on making another investigator once Ikari retires from PFS and that one will use alchemy so this guide will be a HUGE help then.
For the sake of argument on Slueth's behalf I will say that it is absolutely the best archetype you can take if you want to be a PFS skill god:
~Slueth's Luck: You can't dump Cha anymore and that kinda sucks, but you get luck which is basically like situation-based inspiration that you can get back throughout the day without even trying. Luck stacks with grit & panache so if you're multi-classing or have a feat that grants one of those then you have even more luck and more chances to get it back. The whole "regain when rolling 20 or above a 6 on inspiration die when actively investigating" is weird wording. I would have rather they said "only on knowledge checks" just so it isn't brought into question all the dang time, gives dick GMs plenty of opportunity to give you the 1 finger salute over something stupid.
~Daring: It has allowed me to save my skill points for knowledge and tripfinding/disabling skills while still allowing me to survive the Drowned Level by adding exploding d6s to my swim checks. Almost all of the daring skills are potential "make it or die" skill checks so adding a d6-d10 to them is a life-saver, literally.
~Opportunistic Evasion: You know you made your reflex save and you see that GM reaching for 10d6, spend one luck point and negate your half damage. Enough said.
~Sleuth's Initiative: If you have 1 luck you have +2 to Init. Honestly it's really just icing. If you take quick draw you are automatically not flat-footed the second combat starts so that's pretty cool. Otherwise, yay free +2 to initiative checks!
~Make it Count: Every combat talent tied that "affects" Studied Strike without paying for the talent.
~Run like Hell: Yeah it's gimmicky, you'll get no argument from me there, but when you need it you really REALLY need it. Even when you don't need it it's kinda nice to get +20 ft movement for 10 rounds. Even better because it usually means your AC is +4 for the first round of combat if you just zig zag a bit. That said, the reaction most GMs have to this is "What the hell? Let me see that!" so have your book open and ready to go because I promise they won't believe you because it sounds so silly.
~Second chance: Roll your inspiration/daring again for 1 luck. Usually not needed but it certainly doesn't hurt.
Can a lot of these benefits be covered by alchemy? Definitely, but I start each session with 8 luck points playing my level 7 Investigator Ikari and I gain at least half that many back in the session with knowledge checks. Unlike extracts I don't need to prepare them so when I need that bonus to swim I don't have to curse myself for not preparing Touch of the Sea or Monkeyfish. Also, they're all instant use or constant effects. Will any of these replace the extra damage alchemy can do? Nope, but if you aren't looking for that then the archetype is great.
Also, if you ARE a Sleuth then I would say Amazing Inspiration would become at least a green talent since more chances to regain luck. Remember you get 1 luck for every 6/higher on inspiration rolls made for investigation purposes, that means if you roll a 6, 7, or 8. If you get the Focused Inspiration feat it becomes every 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 so you'll have more luck than you know what to do with.
Would Sleuth be a good archetype for every game? No but if you're sitting down to a table with no skill monkeys it's a good bet. Most homebrew games are simply not going to use you to your full potential, but any PFS dungeon delving or monster hunting scenario is going to make you the party's best friend. It also adds some damn good survival/adaptability options to the class.
Would Sleuth be a good archetype for every game? No but if you're sitting down to a table with no skill monkeys it's a good bet.
If you're sitting down with an investigator you are the group's skill monkey. It's actually hard not to be.
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For the sake of argument on Slueth's behalf I will say that it is absolutely the best archetype you can take if you want to be a PFS skill god:
I'd strongly disagree with this.
Sleuth's Luck's okay, but no substitute for Extracts.
Extracts can give you Swim and Fly speeds (and thus avoid needing Swim or Climb entirely), +30 foot movement, up to +20 to several of the best skills (Perception and Stealth leap immediately to mind), +1/2 level on all Disable Device checks...and that's all off the top of my head and all by 7th level at the latest (most is by 4th level). The only thing they don't get is Evasion...and even then, Protection from Energy can serve many of the same functions.
Add in how nice Empiricist is for a skill monkey and, well, Sleuth is left utterly in the dust as a skill-monkey.
Not that it takes 3 people to point out Sleuth isn't that good, but Daring only really gives you bonuses to the "move around" skills that you can just do plain better than with extracts.
Init, Run Like Hell and Make it Count don't do anything for skills at all. Second Chance isn't terrible. It's just that the overall package doesn't do nearly as much to buff skills or to replace skills flat out (who needs Climb when you have a climb speed? And so forth.) as extracts do. Also, keep in mind as nice as their skill bonuses are, the baseline skill monkey character is vanilla rogue. Aka, the guy whose schtick is having 8+int skills a level and...really nothing else. If you're desperate to keep your numbers high for Disable or other things, you can generally get much better mileage out of Wondrous Items than rerolling a 1d6.
One of the best parts is Evasion/day, and that's not even a skill thing at all.
Sleuths can also be Empiricists and vice versa, so I don't think that's a good argument.