Ok so a little context for you,
My DM has... well...DM'ed since the 2nd edition first came out and I have been playing with him for nearly 10 years. He currently runs 2 games a week and is a player in a third.
I took a break from DnD for a while and came back to one of his games about 2 months ago. Ever since then we have been meeting enemies that are simply too strong to beat, not every fight mind you, but almost every game.
We would get beat/humiliated (or forced into inaction because the enemy is clearly too strong for us), and then he would see that we would be depressed from having to flee over and over again so he would put a very low CR encounter, (which was just as humiliating honestly) just to put another invincible enemy after that (all this is happening over the course of roughly 9 games).
I dont mind having people we cant beat, it adds realism, (although when it's every other game it starts to get depressing) but it's the fact that it's coupled with a sort of knee-jerk play style he has that is just frustrating as hell.
Example:
We got a lead on a quest, and a hostile NPC was leading us to it. We found out it was trap during along the way so the new guy in our group thought we should kill the hostile NPC but(obviously)we couldn't beat him be cause he was, like, lvl 17 according to the DM.
So new guy comes up with a plan to attack him at night so he wont have his armor on, meanwhile I called for info on the hostile NPC from a friend I had, and she now tells me that he has summonable armor so our plan wont work...that seemed awfully...specific. (I KNOW he could not do that before we came up with: Let's attack him at night)
Example:
We are fighting a grave knight at the end of a long day of adventuring, now for some reason the DM tells us this monster is CR 11, which is true, except the fact that he boosted his AC to 33, gave him mythic powers and boosted his damage output to about 75 dam per round.
He downs one of the 2 fighters in 1 round (he was already hurt) so I (the 2nd fighter) go over to grab him so we can run away (again).
I cant do it all in 1 round so I go next to him and whip out my spiked chain to trip the graveknight if he comes close to me.
Well the graveknight moved 5 ft and used lunge against me... A graveknight doesn't have lunge. (I know feats can be changed but come on...) Needless to say he downed me too and then he just dumped our still dying bodies out of his crypt and did not finish us.
Later that session (when we were depressed again) we faced 3 howlers CR 3, we are lvl 8 mythic tier 1.
Sorry that's a LOT of context, I would like to tell him about what he is doing but he tends to get very defensive and would probably never admit that he does those things... what would you guys do in this situation.
please help!
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A graveknight can have lunge, it's just a template, this part is not really a problem. Graveknights are melee liches basically, the graveknight that appears in the book is just an example.
Anyway 3 cr 3 howlers, it's a cr 6 encounter...its easy well unless of course these monsters happen to be good against your group weakness.
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Basically, tell him precisely that; the game is supposed to be a challenge, not impossible, and not a cakewalk, and not bouncing in between the two.
Admittedly, the whole CR system is so loose and inaccurate as to be almost useless, but he can come closer than that.
More troubling to me is the 'spoiler' aspect of this, the 'my PCs came up with a good idea, I have to suddenly invent a bullcrap way to head it off', plus the stupid overpowering NPC to railroad you on the plot ...
Actually, I take it back. Just leave.
A graveknight can have lunge, it's just a template, this part is not really a problem. Graveknights are melee liches basically, the graveknight that appears in the book is just an example.
Anyway 3 cr 3 howlers, it's a cr 6 encounter...its easy well unless of course these monsters happen to be good against your group weakness.
so he would quote the exact CR that is in the example of the book? but anyway It's just an example (maybe it's not a good one) but you do understand that it's not the issue at hand here right?
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I understand but wanted to point out these weren't issues, at least from the crunch side.
Anyway if you have tried to talk to your DM and explained to him that it isn't the kind of adventure that you are looking for, can only recommend you to find another group. Sometime the needs and desires of players and GM change, just you both didn't go into the same direction. You can of course still be friends but probably playing Dnd together won't work out anymore.
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How are you handling encounter rewards? Because if he is giving you tought as hell encounters then if you win you should get A LOT of experience, level up much faster and probably get a good chuck of magic items. Now if he is deliberately limiting your resources the he is "deliberatly meddling with the system". This is similar thna like taking money away from you. I would ask him how he is handling encounters, normally it compromises from 1/3 easy encounters, 1/3 medium encounter and 1/3 hard encounters. He is obviously not using this, so then ask him WHY he is not using this if the GMs guide explicity give you guidelines for this. Granted CR is not an exact science but at least gives you a guideline you should in general adhere to
How are you handling encounter rewards? Because if he is giving you tought as hell encounters then if you win you should get A LOT of experience, level up much faster and probably get a good chuck of magic items. Now if he is deliberately limiting your resources the he is "deliberatly meddling with the system". This is similar thna like taking money away from you. I would ask him how he is handling encounters, normally it compromises from 1/3 easy encounters, 1/3 medium encounter and 1/3 hard encounters. He is obviously not using this, so then ask him WHY he is not using this if the GMs guide explicity give you guidelines for this. Granted CR is not an exact science but at least gives you a guideline you should in general adhere to
We don't play with exp. I know it sounds weird but basically we wanted to have a system where everyone is the same level and not dependent on battles to level up. It's very homebrew.
Not weird at all. A significant percentage of people on this board don't use it, mostly because it's utterly superfluous and unnecessary.
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How are you handling encounter rewards? Because if he is giving you tought as hell encounters then if you win you should get A LOT of experience, level up much faster and probably get a good chuck of magic items. Now if he is deliberately limiting your resources the he is "deliberatly meddling with the system". This is similar thna like taking money away from you. I would ask him how he is handling encounters, normally it compromises from 1/3 easy encounters, 1/3 medium encounter and 1/3 hard encounters. He is obviously not using this, so then ask him WHY he is not using this if the GMs guide explicity give you guidelines for this. Granted CR is not an exact science but at least gives you a guideline you should in general adhere toWe don't play with exp. I know it sounds weird but basically we wanted to have a system where everyone is the same level and not dependent on battles to level up. It's very homebrew.
systems that ignore exp count at least a number of encounters, which also have a number of encounters per difficult level, hence if you have a lot a of difficult encounters you HAVE to level faster. Ignoring exp is not ignoring the natural game progression IMO
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Not really, no. It's perfectly fine for the GM to just say 'okay, we level up now'.
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If I were you, I would ask your GM what he thinks makes a successful, fun gaming session. It sounds like he has somehow gotten into a GM rut where he feels lie he has to "win" to have fun - which certainly isn't what Pathfinder (or any other roleplaying game, for that matter) is about.
I'd suggest that somebody else take on the GM mantle for a bit, to give him a break, or that you suggest to him that it might be easier for him to run balanced encounters if he runs an adventure path, rather than a homebrew campaign. That might not meet his need to be creative (if that's one of the things that drives him as a DM/GM), but it will certainly make balancing the encounters a lot easier (he may still have to tweak the encounters, but hopefully not have to overhaul them).
No gaming is better than bad gaming. Just stop playing and get a new DM if you can. There are plenty of good games online via roll20.net. This DM does not sound salvageable, and if he gets defensive when you talk to him then he's not going to change.
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Oddly, it sounds like he has not completely made the adjustment to 3.5/Pathfinder from 2nd ed. I know when I made the jump to 3.5 (after a 7 yr hiatus) my group complained (and rightly so) about many of these same issues: whipsaw CR encounters, too high then too low as a response to seeing that the other was too high, etc. I don't recall metagaming in obstacles to player solutions, but I did often adjust magic items and monsters on the fly in an attempt to restore them to what I remember them being like in 2nd ed. All in all, I frustrated my more experienced 3.5 players.
Is it possible that he has just not ever made the adjustment to 3.5/PF from 2nd Ed? Does he has a lot of house rules that make it seem like a throwback game?
I know I was struggling a lot to make the game feel like the games I remembered. When I stopped doing that and focused on what the players wanted the game to be like (oh, and also what the rules suggested, lol) the game became more fun all the way around.
I as a dm, and a player, have had this situation myself, and sadly, am also guilty of doing the exact same thing to my players in the past. What worked for my players, was to explain to me that it's my job as DM to ensure fun for the PLAYERS, not just myself. If the players aren't having any fun, they tend to not want to play my game, which is why I lost players. After they explained it to me, with that simple truth, I hit myself over the head with the thought that my players come FIRST, not ME.
Being a D.M. is about creating a fun, roleplaying experience for the players, in which we generate the story, stay true to the rules, while playing fair in all instances of DM'ing the session. If a D.M finds himself fudging the rules all the time so that HIS monsters/npc's win all the time, when in all fairness, the pc's should always have a chance at winning, then what's the point in dm'ing ?
I think it depends on the type of game it is. Most people on these boards seem to play with the kill them all approach. This is, every encounter is one where your party can win. The toughest encounters may kill the party, but with smart planning, the party can win, even if they take a few losses.
However, though prominent in modern day RPGs to go kill everything and be invincible...this isn't the only way to play.
In some of the older RPG playstyles, the idea that you would try to kill something if you encounter it, is laughable. Probably, because if you did that, you'd die within the first session.
The idea in those games were not to kill the bad guys, but overcome them. This isn't necessarily by beating them, but perhaps by sneaking past them, or taking their treasure when they aren't looking, or realizing you can't beat them and go try another way.
Of course, the original AD&D that had this idea in some of the groups, didn't give you much XP for killing things. In fact, just to get to level 2, you'd have to kill hundreds of kobolds or goblins or orcs just to get there.
Treasure was the goal. Your objective was to get their treasure...not slaughter a whole tribe of Orcs in the process (most likely, because they would slaughter you first).
You could do this by drilling into their lair when they were looking towards the entrances, pretending to be orcs and getting away with it, or any number of other items.
It could be that your DM is misjudging CR, or it could be that they are pushing for one of many old school playstyle types, in which you can't beat the bad guys normally...and the creatures you can beat may be push overs...but their bosses will boss you.
Or, you guys could approach it that way (if the DM lets you) and instead of bashing the way through, get through it in an alternate method.
Maybe you can get some insight into the DM's mindset by asking questions. Since he is a player in another game maybe you could ask how the encounters in that game are and how he feels about that. You could also ask what his PC from the other game would have done in the encounters the DM is presenting you with.
@Argus the Slayer - The Adventure Path idea sounds good, but in practice it seems like most DMs find it very hard to resist amping up the encounters in Adventure Paths.
Basically, tell him precisely that; the game is supposed to be a challenge, not impossible, and not a cakewalk, and not bouncing in between the two.
Admittedly, the whole CR system is so loose and inaccurate as to be almost useless, but he can come closer than that.
More troubling to me is the 'spoiler' aspect of this, the 'my PCs came up with a good idea, I have to suddenly invent a bullcrap way to head it off', plus the stupid overpowering NPC to railroad you on the plot ...
Actually, I take it back. Just leave.
This. I had a buddy playing with a GM who sounded exactly like this (is this an online game, seriously may be the same guy) and it was awful. Every week he'd tell me what the GM was pulling, and people kept rage quitting. Finally my friend just left, but the situation sounds unfun at best and awful at worse.
To be honest with you, Op...this seems to be a rather recurring theme with DMs. I won't say it's a majority because we really only see posts about the bad DMs. I don't think I can recall anyone posting just to say how awesome their DM is.
You need to consider what the DM is getting from his actions. I've run with a DM that often is a control freak, has a specific story he wants to tell, and if players test the boundaries of that story they are often brought back into line via some kind of DM chicanery, not unlike what you're describing with the Summon Armor stuff. On the other hand, sometimes a DM is just bad at being a DM not because he's trying to be unfair or anything, it's just not in their skill set to do well.
Yours sounds more like the first option if he's been at it this long.
But you exist as a person on this planet, and as a result of that you have the right to approach the DM and ask him if he could attempt to make the majority of combat more balanced so you guys aren't forced to run away with your tails between your legs simply because you're outmatched. Now, if you get consistently bad rolls that's something else, and if you use poor tactics that's your own problem. Unless you guys are trying to push forward when you shouldn't be or something else that isn't being relayed, it sounds like your DM is simply either enjoying a bit of a power trip and falling into the classic "It's me vs. my players!" BS mindset a lot of them do, or isn't being very thoughtful in balancing his encounters properly.
If you're worried about them being defensive, try to pull them aside in as least confrontational a way as you can, like well before a session starts and you are alone, or afterwards. Don't put the guy on the spot in front of the whole table or that'll just make them feel cornered, and rarely does anything good come out of that approach.
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I am the player Under a bleeding sun was referring to. This does sound very much like the horrible GM experience I had in an online game. I tried talking to the GM and he only called me names and verbally attacked me. The only thing I can think of is that it was his passive aggressive way at picking on people he thought he had authority over. OP please PM me to see if it is indeed the same GM. If talking to the GM doesn't work then the only other recourse is to quit. I lingered on for a couple months in the game i was a part of before finally having enough and i wish i had quit sooner.
All valid points and advice, it's hard to answer everybody on here. I'll try and give a better description of the stuff he does.
1- He has always been kind of like this, meta-gaming in objects/people/monsters when he felt the need to (I think every DM does this at one point or another) the problem is it feels like he needs to a LOT recently. I believe it's because he thinks if we take out a plot hook then we wont be able to do the quest, when in fact we could just find a letter on him or a map with an X or something.
2- The control freak aspect: It has happened (several times in the past) that against a BBEG we would whip out something the DM did not know we could do and would end the encounter very rapidly. Most of the time when that happened he would meta-game in some reason why it wouldn't work (not all the time mind you), like this one time where we were fighting a djinni and someone in the team blinded it, well the DM continued to have it act normally and when we are shaking our heads in disbelief he said:
-What? he has tremorsense!
We all knew he did not have tremorsense, also he was hovering not touching the ground.
When stuff like that happens it looks like the DM wants his encounters to go a certain way and becomes somewhat standoffish (or just meta-games in some reason why it doesn't work) if we find a way around his plan.
Ever since I have come back we have been wandering around Ustalav getting our asses handed to us everywhere we went so when the graveknight kicked it again even my character was pissed so I said to the only other surviving (and present) team member: I'm getting the hell out of this dungeon and I'm going home, all we do is get beat in this effing country.
So we left in the middle of the dungeon, we gathered our stuff and just left, we could have gone back to one of the lodges where we had a 75,000 gp reward waiting for us but we did not go there (a vampire had kicked our asses the week before at that lodge) we just headed back home.
I did this in an effort to show the DM that even my char was sick of it. For now I intend to play my character as fed up with failure as I am. Now every time he will get his ass beat in a dungeon he will give up. I hope this is enough to make the DM realize what the problem is, and if not then I'll have to take him aside and tell him how I really feel.
Thanks to everyone for your various advice,
it has been very helpful
Damn Nessus_9th ! this Game does NOT sound fun :(
i would talk to the other players as well. with some backup from all the other players, letting your G.M. know your ALL not having fun with this playstyle, and that your all fed up with it, and ready to quit. If THIS doesn't work, then its simple, either Quit, or just have one of the other players DM, and make your own game with the horrible knowledge you have learned from all of the helpful people on this site.
My 2 cents. Just take him aside and tell him what you think. Don't try to give him subtle in-game hints where your characters does this or that, that's just a waste of time. He's (probably) having fun himself, so it's very likely that the only reaction you'll get from him is confusion. Life's too short to beat around the bush like that. Talk to him - communication is key to any functioning social relation.
You say he gets very defensive when confronted. There's some ways to ease that. First, mix some sweet with the bitter. Start by complimenting him for something fun/great you think he did as a GM. That's a way of showing him that you appreciate his efforts, and also *what* you appreciate. It'll also put him in a good mood and open him up to your real message. Now say that you don't really enjoy getting defeated as often as it happens. Be calm. Don't use aggressive language. Instead, just seem a little sad and deflated about it. Make it about what you feel, not about what he does. That way, it will seem like *you* have a problem that you would like him to help you with (which is inviting and flattering), not that *he's* got a problem that you wan't him to fix (which is extrovert and aggressive).
Around here he might sniff out the criticism and get defensive anyway. He might find what you say hurtful, and will maybe want to hurt you back by making some snide remark ("well, you just need to step up your sh**y game then, won't you?" etc). Don't get angry. Don't escalate. Instead defuse his defense by complimenting him again. Say you thinks he's a great GM, but you just think the game is too much like a GM vs. players death match, which players can never win. And that you think it could be more fun with encounters that are more balanced for you.
Also be clear that this is *your* personal opinion - don't act as a spokesperson for the group (no "us" and "we"), as that implies you've been speaking about him behind his back. Being a GM can be a lonely task, and ganging up on him with the other players might just make him even more defensive. Tell him this is just what you think and ask him to please think it over. Don't ask for an answer or reaction right away. That will just force him to make a decision under duress, and then he'll most likely just react like he's used to - being defensive and negative to change.
Either he'll take your points to heart and try to change his GM-style, or he won't. If he doesn't, I would try to bow out as graciously as possible from his game - without ruffling any more feathers - and try to find a new GM. At least you know you tried as best you could. Or ask to GM yourself and show by example.
Best wishes,
Gm. Phil ;-)
As others have mentioned, this is a personal issue. Passive aggressively pouting in character isn't going to deal with this issue. Have a conversation with the gm and the group and try and work it out.