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I'm making up this investigator and not really sure how he's going to cope in combat; I'm not good at making martial/melee characters in general. PFS rules apply.
No idea what to do about armor (up to 13 AC without taking a feat? in melee!) and I'm stuck with weapons as far as I can tell; they all seem terrible but need them for the Inspired enchantment.
Any advice is welcome, thanks in advance :o)
Half-Orc Empiricist 2
Str: 16 +3 (10)
Dex: 8 -1 (-2)
Con: 16 +3 (10)
Int: 18 +4 (10)(+2/horc)
Wis: 7 -2 (-4)
Cha: 7 -2 (-4)
WEAPONS
Whip +4 1d3 x2 2lb 15 ft M S,Reach,Disarm,Non-Lethal,Trip
Sword Cane +4 1d8 +3(str) x2 6lb melee M Slashing
Hand X/Bow +0 1d8 (19-20)x2 4lb 80 ft M Piercing
Bolts (10)
M/W Chain Shirt +4 (AC 13/9/13)
FEATS & INVESTIGATOR TALENTS
[Class] Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
[Class] Weapon Proficiency (Hand/Xbow, Rapier, Sap, S/Bow, S/Sword, S/Cane)
[Class] Armor Proficiency (Light)
[1st] Medium Armor Proficiency?
[3rd] Extra Inspiration
[3rd T] Mutagen
[5th] Heavy Armor Proficiency? Toughness? Arcane Strike? Power Attack?
[5th T] Quick Study
[7th] Extra Investigator Talent (Sickening Offensive)
[7th T] Amazing Inspiration
[9th] Extra Investigator Talent (Combine Extracts)
[9th T] Combat Inspiration
TRAITS
Student of Philosophy (int for diplomacy and bluff to lie)
Fate's Favoured (luck bonuses double)
RACIAL BONUSES
Sacred Tattoo (+1 luck bonus to all saves)
Darkvision (60ft)
City-Raised (+2 know/local,prof with whip & longsword)
Rock Climber (+1 acrobatics & climb)
Orc Blood
if you're wanting him to be good in combat I'd recommend stats of 16+2,14,14,14,9,8 this plus chainshirt gives AC 16 at lv1. it'll up your hitting chance, which is helpful without full BAB and you still have a good int. dropping int and con to boost up dex will be worth it. Because avoiding a lot more attacks is better than 1 hp. I wouldn't worry about the medium armor for a few levels, you don't have the money to buy good stuff yet. But you can get medium armor if you don't mind the speed loss, you won't be losing any Dex from going medium.
Power attack is good if you have a decent chance of hitting things. Arcane strike is good if you have free swift actions. Toughness probably wont be needed, you can get it if you feel you don't have enough HP, but you shouldn't really be taking the focus fire. You'll have enough to take some hits though.
If you're sticking with the Half-Orc idea, what weapon you gonna use? If a two-hander or the longsword, go for power attack. Do you like the Inspired weapon enchantment? If so, maybe greatclub? Arcane Strike is out cuz you alchemy doesn't qualify for it and I don't see any spell like abilities in the build. Do you really need Extra Inspiration at level 3? I suggest playing with the character for first few levels and see how much inspiration you use in a day before committing to that.
Your Int is unnecessarily high if it means dumping your Wisdom so low. There are plenty of scenarios where you'd want as good a Will save as you can get, and having a a +2 Will with a sacred tattoo/fate's favored half-orc investigator is kinda disappointing.
How do you envision this character going into combat? Wading into combat slowly? Support? Tanking?
I've built a melee empiricist investigator recently too. He's at 5 XP and I'm waiting til Advanced Origins Comes out before I play him again for Fencing Grace.
RACE
Human: Adopted Parentage (Tengu) = to get Weapon Focus at level 1.
ABILITY
Str 15 = carrying capacity is such a &^$@# when you gotta carry a alchemy crafting kit, thieves' tools, rope, formula book, etc)
Dex 16 = went for finesse)
Con 12 = that's a hit I know, but just gotta be real careful)
Int 16 [14+2) = Don't really need more than 16 at lower levels
Wis 10 = Taking empiricist archetype, don't need Wis for skills, but didn't wanna dump it for Will saves
Cha 7 = I'm risking it in Cha-damage/drain scenarios, but with empiricist and traits like Clever Wordplay and Student of Philosophy, hard to justify not dumping it due to MADness.
TRAITS
Student of Philosophy
Blood of Dragons (low light vision) = A blind as a bat human at night sucks for investigating.
Feats
1) Weapon Finesse.
1 Bonus) Weapon Focus (rapier) = From Adopted Parentage (Tengu).
3) Fencing Grace = use +4 Dex/-2 Wis Mutagen to make it worth it.
5) Power Attack OR Weapon Versatility OR Extra Investigator Talent (expanded inspiration) = Power Attack for more DPR. I'm only so-so about this as I don't ever expect to keep up too much with the barbarians or paladins at the table. Weapon Versatility so that I can keep using the rapier against skeletons or zombies. It's not the best feat but I find it flavourful. Extra Investigator Talent (expanded inspiration) in order to use more inspiration in a scenario rather than worrying about damage. I'm still undecided on the 5th level feat.
Talents
3) Mutagen
5) Quick Study
7) Combat Study.
Current Equipment
Masterwork Cold Iron Rapier. Saving up for adamantine rapier for season 6 secenarios. Turn it into a +1 inspired weapon ASAP.
Chainshirt. Will save up for Mithral Chain in future.
Bunch of crafted acid flasks and alchemist fires.
Sling with variety of bullets.
if you're wanting him to be good in combat I'd recommend stats of 16+2,14,14,14,9,8 this plus chainshirt gives AC 16 at lv1.Your ability scores do not add up to a 20 pt buy, Chess.
I'm having a lot of problems building my empiricist investigator as well. They are one of the most MAD classes out there, rivalling even monks.
I started out with a human for the extra feat, and I was going to go the Bludgeoner/Enforcer route with Bruising Intellect as a trait and wielding a morningstar. Now I'm reconsidering that and thinking about going with a sylph Weapon Finesse build using a rapier.
The only thing I do know about my build, is that if he's a human his name will be Elmo.
I meant cha 7, that was a typo, but it should have been clear the intent of priority and what stats to lower to put it into 20 pt range.
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This is what the Inspired weapon enchantment does:
This special ability can be placed only on simple weapons, hand crossbows, rapiers, shortbows, short swords, and sword
canes. In the hands of an investigator, an inspired weapon reduces the cost of using inspiration on attack rolls made with the weapon. The weapon’s wielder needs to expend only one use of inspiration to augment his attack rolls with this weapon, as with the combat inspiration investigator talent. If the wielder already has the combat inspiration talent, the wielder must still expend one use of inspiration, but in addition to adding the result of the inspiration roll to the attack roll, the investigator adds twice the result of the inspiration roll to the weapon’s damage roll.
So no greatclubs or falchions.
I want him to be decent in combat (support, basically), he doesn't have to be fantastic at it. I'm not sure if even power attack is worth taking, but I'm pretty sure having the high intelligence is important for the inspiration? 14 int sounds absurd on an investigator? I rarely care about a 7 wisdom on most of my characters, I like using that as a character weakness to boost other stats, this is no exception.
I don't want to multiclass if I can help it, and I can change race if it becomes important to the build.
What would you need a higher than 14 int for? a 16 will give you 1 more use of your inspiration ability and skill. anything else? What would you use that 1 more use of inspiration for? Combat? if so just be better at combat and save the use. What else do you need the inspiration for?
And the reason the wis isn't a 7 was that with the other stats I suggested, you had 3 points left over, and no way to use them. boosting a 14 to 15 is 2 so you have 1 that can't be used.
I have a ratfolk investigator empiricist that owns. I just went ranged instead of melee. This helps you zero, I know, but going ranged helped me tons.
Ah right, forgot greatclub was martial. Heavy mace or morningstar it is.
16 Int I think would be fine. Hard to imagine something lasting more than 3 rounds for studied combat. You get a number of inspiration = 1/2 investigator class levels + Int modifier. 1-2 loss of inspiration ain't a big deal when at low levels you're gonna be using them for the trained knowledge/linguisitcs/spellcraft checks which don't need to spend the points.
14 does seem too low for a non-human. Investigators want skills, even melee-focused ones, as that's what they're bringing to the party that most other classes have difficulty contributing. When using a mutagen for strength bonus, the -2 Int penalty is gonna cut into the studied combat duration too much.
Well if you're aware and not caring of the 7 Wis, no point commenting on it. Your current stats would have AC around 17 with fullplate at level 3 or 5, 19 with mutagen. Higher if it's magical. At levels 1 and 2, it'll be a 15 with the best medium armors.
If you got 16 Int, can get a better Dex = Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 16 [14+2], Wis 7, Cha 7
Your AC can be a 17 at level 1 with four-mirror armor (or breastplate when you got more cash).
By level 3 you got 4 inspiration. Pick up Power Attack instead of extra inspiration. Or if you want, heavy armor and get 20 AC with fullplate.
With a +1 Dex mod, could be worthwhile to chuck discounted crafted splash weapons, which are awesome for support. Though I think you're better off with Quick Study at level 5 (or 3 with Extra Investigator Talent, nowhere does it say you can't have it despite not having studied combat yet.) Either Quick Study or Power Attack would pay off at level 4 thanks to Studied Combat. Quick Study to activate faster and you can be more mobile, or Studied Combat negating the Power Attack penalty.
You're picking up Empiricist and Student of Philosophy, 2 very RP-specific things, so I assume you're gonna put ranks in at least some of this list: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception (obviously), Sense Motive, Use Magic Device.
Expanded Inspiration = Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, and Sense Motive
Underworld Inspiration = Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, Sleight of Hand
You get expanded inspiration and can make your games lot funner/easier. Unless ALL you're focused on is combat, then I'd have to wonder why bother with empiricist at all.
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Righto, I think I'm leaning towards dropping int to 16 and boost ye olde dex, as per The Protoman Array. That's a safe compromise.
Having said that, Weapon Finesse with a rapier does sound very appealing, and I'd love to ditch the armor proficiencies and keep my 30ft speed. If that's the case, I'll do
Str 13 +0 ( 3)
Dex 16 +3 (10)
Con 16 +3 (10)
Int 16 +3 ( 5)(+2/half-orc)
Wis 7 -2 (-4)
Cha 7 -2 (-4)
And:
FEATS & INVESTIGATOR TALENTS
[Class] Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
[Class] Weapon Proficiency (Hand/Xbow, Rapier, Sap, S/Bow, S/Sword, S/Cane)
[Class] Armor Proficiency (Light)
[1st] Weapon Finesse
[3rd] Combat Expertise? Power Attack? Fencing Grace? Extra Inspiration
[3rd T] Quick Study (changed! thanks Protoman)
[5th] Butterfly Sting? Toughness? Arcane Strike? Power Attack? Extra Investigator Talent (Expanded Inspiration)?
[5th T] Mutagen? Expanded Inspiration?
[7th] Extra Investigator Talent (Sickening Offensive)
[7th T] Amazing Inspiration
[9th] Extra Investigator Talent (Combine Extracts)
[9th T] Combat Inspiration
I looked up Fencing Grace everywhere and can't find anything on it? Is there a blog post somewhere? (edit: found it - that might even be grounds to dump str and bump dex further)
Expanded Inspiration and Underworld Inspiration are very appealing as well. Combat is intended to be secondary, I just don't want to be useless at it, but I do feel like I'm devoting too much of my build to it.
The whole Fencing Grace needing Weapon Focus issue is exactly why my human empiricist took Adopted Parentage (Tengu). Can score Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse at level 1 and get Fencing Grace at 3. Unfortunately I'm still a little early for the book to come out so I'm waiting to get Advanced Origins PDF before playing a level 3 investigator. If you're taking Fencing Grace at level 5, do get mutagen at that level, it'll make the feat more worthwhile; otherwise it's a feat that only does +2 damage (Str 13 vs Dex 16), with mutagen the feat does +4 damage (Str 13 vs Dex 20).
Before bigdaddyjug can lower strength, he'll have to check on his encumbrance first (and you should too, Avatar-1). Formula book, alchemy crafting kit, thieves tools, and good light armor are all pretty heavy things that an investigator would want with him all times and can accumulate quickly. And if being (possibly mutagen-enhanced) Dex-build, wanna keep in light load. Sure this isn't an issue after level 3, where Ant Haul can last a decent amount of time and can afford handy haversack soon, but lower levels it can be a great big drag.
I wouldn't bother with Butterfly's Sting for PFS unless you're playing with someone specifically every game that's willing to work with you on synching up initiatives. I met a married couple that does that: one with higher initatives delay so they act RIGHT after another, rogue dual wields kukris, when she crits -> Butterfly's Sting, paladin with scythe does major damage. Without that teammate, in a typical PFS game, someone else's crit might not be all that much better compared to your Fencing Grace crit = 2d6 + 2xDex + 1/2 investigator level.
I'd try stats of 16/14/12/17/10/7. Normally I'd avoid a d8 melee class with less than 14 Con, but starting at level 4, you can use False Life for added hp protection. If you want the heavier armor, you could either take the Armor Expert trait and a mithril breastplate (no ACP means no penalty for non-proficiency), save up for Elven Chain, or take a 1-level dip into Fighter. I think spending two feats on armor is overkill, especially when you'll have extracts like Shield and Barkskin, and the mutagen boost to NA.
The whole Fencing Grace needing Weapon Focus issue is exactly why my human empiricist took Adopted Parentage (Tengu). Can score Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse at level 1 and get Fencing Grace at 3You need a +1 BAB to take Weapon Focus. I don't see how anything related to Tengu helps?
The same reason why half-elves with Ancestral Arms and +0 BAB at level 1 can still take Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Dawnflower Dervish when it's a feat specifically granted by race or class and doesn't say it needs to meet prereqs it'll skip the prerequisites.
Tengu have been a legal race in PFS for at least couple seasons now so their racial options are open to Adopted Parentage. Tengu specifically do not have weapon familiarity which would have prevented Weapon Focus or Skill Focus selection from Adopted Parentage. Tengu also got a list of weapons specifically tied to the race: Swordtrained. So easy enough to pick up Weapon Focus from the swordtrained list without anyone claiming you're pulling up random weapon selection to justify the Weapon Focus, like say a Human with Adopted Parentage (undine) and picking up Weapon Focus (dwarven battleaxe).
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The same reason why half-elves with Ancestral Arms and +0 BAB at level 1 can still take Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Dawnflower Dervish when it's a feat specifically granted by race or class and doesn't say it needs to meet prereqs it'll skip the prerequisites.
Is there a FAQ that lets this work you could point me towards? Because I thought the 'Race Trait' adopted parentage allows was different from the 'Racial Traits' that are listed with each race.
Even if you could take Racial Traits... I'm not sure how that allows you to get Weapon Focus? Sword Trained says nothing about allowing you to count as if you had +1 BAB, just that you count as Proficient and Weapon Focus requires both of those things. Again, if there's a FAQ which allows this it'd be great if you could link it for me, I've searched and can't find anything and it would be a great help in some of my builds to snag WF at level 1 this way.
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Ah ha great! Thank you, I was only finding the 'Adopted' trait that allows the Race Feat and thinking it was that, somehow I managed to never notice that ability as an optional human choice despite it apparently being around for years! Good to know and definitely useful for a lot of builds, many thanks! :)
I'm still not sure how the half-elf thing works, though.
Ancestral Arms: Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
I was just using half-elves' ancestral arms as a common example of a race granting a feat despite a potential class' lack of BAB meeting the prerequisite. Like a half-elf rogue picking up elven curve blade proficiency or half-elf magus (not kensai) getting katana proficiency.
Bit confused about all the necro posts going on. I'm sure after almost 3 years the OP had figured things out and moved on