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So I'm just curious if Paizo's nerf of Crane Style made it less popular in general play. I think most DMs wanted to see it not as good, but still a viable choice, but it may be the case that nobody uses it anymore because of better choices out there.
So favorite this post if you still include it in your builds as a matter of course.
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Favorite this post if you find yourself never using it after the nerf when you had used it a lot before.
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And favorite this post if it finds its way into super specialized fighting defensively builds, but otherwise not at all. (For the record, this is where I fall).
By the by, if I missed out any pertinent choices, please feel free to inform me and I'll add it in.
prototype00
Using it on a very specialized build in order to get maximum benefit from the STALWART feat.
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yes, its still a very good feat.
Fair enough, though I notice that you haven't voted yet.
Yeah, you missed a choice... How about when you've never used it, even when it was the theorycrafter's favorite?
I'm not sure how that tells me much about how the use has changed, "I never used it before, and now that its been nerf, I DEFINITELY don't use it" isn't a demographic I feel contributes to a complete picture, but am I mistaken there?
prototype00
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Crane Style, the feat (not the overall chain), is still a solid feat in my opinion. Crane Riposte and Crane Wing are awful, however.
I still use Crane Style on some defensive monk builds, but never bother with the later two feats anymore. It's a shame that one melee block a round was seen as too strong for a feat, but Cha to saves is perfectly acceptable as a feat.
Crane riposte does make Cane style (and fighting defensively) more situationally useful with the extra +1 to AC.
prototype00
I think maybe you should have made the poll about Crane Wing rather than Crane Style since the Crane Style feat itself hasn't changed and is still a pretty solid choice for anybody interested in fighting defensively.
I never used Crane Style before I recently took it with one of my current PCs. I intend to take Crane Wing and Riposte as well. I think that a +4 to AC once per round and an additional +1 to hit while fighting defensively sound pretty nice. The riposte attack should be fun too.
I had some fears in the past that Crane Wing would be considered overpowered by my fellow players and DMs. I almost took Crane Style by itself with a sword and board PC who wouldn't have been able to use Crane Wing, but as it turned out there were some other feats he wanted more.
As an aside, I'm in a Mythic game at the moment. My Viking picked up a mythic ability to block one attack per round with a shield, and it seems pretty strong.
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I think there should be a "I didn't use it a lot, but would consider using the pre-errata version. Won't even think about using the it after the errata" option. Your poll currently makes it seems like everyone either always used it or never did.
Personally, I wasn't particularly impressed by it before the nerf, but it was an useful feat that I would consider using. I GM'ed for 3 different players using CW, never had any problem dealing with any of them.
I wouldn't say I'd use the pre-errata version "a lot", but I could see myself taking it for the right build. After the errata, however, CW just went to the ever-growing pile of garbage feats that will never see play. Ever.
As if we didn't have enough of those...
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Yeah, more options on the poll would be nice. I'd fall into something like "Didn't use it before but will now". I'd imagine that's a very small group.
Anyhow, people clearly still use Crane Style and even Crane Wing. In fact, the numbers so far show more people using it than not. I also think there's a lot of space between using a feat in builds "as a matter of course" and only using it in "super specialized" builds. I mean, the typical Wizard probably wouldn't invest in Crane Wing, but he probably wouldn't invest in Power Attack either, and most folks think that's a decent feat.
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So, a few things.
1. LazarX, it's not about theorycrafting. I used pre-nerf Crane Style/Wing/Riposte in PFS from 2nd level all the way up to 11th with my MoMS, and it was incredibly powerful. I like to brag that I played Waking Rune with that character on hard mode and took 0 damage the whole time (while dishing out plenty). If you're someone who likes to make defensive builds (as I do), it truly became an inevitable feat choice the way it was before. I had to consciously force myself not to take it for my characters after that first MoMS, despite the fact that it was always more optimal. After that Monk, I stopped making optimal characters because it's not fun to play the mods with them.
2. Defensive builds are, in general, not considered as effective because the design of most scenarios and most of the other classes does not incentivize them; rather they incentivize aggressive, offensive play. That is changing, however, now that mods are becoming more challenging and featuring more intricate encounters with broader types of threat and more terrain features. All of this favors defensive builds since it makes it more difficult to end combats absurdly quickly (unless you're a Gunslinger/Paladin or an optimized full caster, but honestly those things shouldn't exist at all and everybody knows they're too good so there's no use talking about them).
3. I am about to bring my MoMS out of retirement to play the 12th level scenario, so I am in fact in the position right now of having to decide whether to keep Crane Wing/Riposte or to throw down some prestige and swap them for Snake Sidewind and Snake Fang. The Snake feats dramatically increase my offensive output and the Crane feats marginally increase my defensive capabilities. The thing is, I'm a defensive build, so a marginal defensive boost might put me over that limit break, and therefore ultimately be better in some ways than a significant offensive boost. In many cases that +4 from Crane Wing is still going to put my AC into the "only hits me on a 20" territory. So I'm conflicted, even though I recognize that the Snake feats are probably ultimately more optimal for me to take.
4. Ultimately, I am a slightly different category than the options the OP listed. I used to never take Crane Wing (after that first Monk) because it was too good. Now I don't take it because it's a bit weak, and just generally unexciting. I definitely think they missed the Goldilocks zone on this feat both before and after the errata.
5. It might be worth re-doing the poll as DevilKiller said, since the issue really is with Crane Wing (and sort of Riposte) rather than Crane Style. Crane Style itself is still a perfectly good, viable feat choice, even if you don't intend to take the rest of the feat tree.
Maybe it is for the best if Crane Wing is now used in "specific" builds instead of being so good that people feel almost compelled to take it (or compelled to avoid it)
Maybe it is for the best if Crane Wing is now used in "specific" builds instead of being so good that people feel almost compelled to take it (or compelled to avoid it)
Agreed. The ideal would be that it was neither of those things, but I definitely prefer the current situation to the way it was before.
With the right feats as a halfling I want to be fighting defensively all the time. It's like +6 or 7 to my Ac and a big bonus to reflex saves as well.
Being able to reduce the penalty to only -1 is gold for me.
It is a very specific character build though.
Yeah, I made a halfling Monk/Slayer with that gimmick, and for me it still wasn't worth taking the whole feat tree. He only had Crane Style, but not Wing or Riposte.
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Maybe it is for the best if Crane Wing is now used in "specific" builds instead of being so good that people feel almost compelled to take it (or compelled to avoid it)
There are already a huge number of feats which fall into this category, however. Power Attack, Piranha Strike, Persistent Spell, Dazing Spell, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, the list goes on and on.
My question to those who feel as Devilkiller and Erik Wilson would be what makes those above staple feats acceptable where old Crane Wing was not?
On a side note, and speaking from a position of heavy involvement with PFS, I do not feel that medium is the best stage upon which to gauge the general value of any given ability. I find doing so similar to testing in a vacuum, as PFS house rules and AR significantly change the scope of their game vs. a standard "these are the available Pathfinder products" game.
YMMV of course.
There are already a huge number of feats which fall into this category, however. Power Attack, Piranha Strike, Persistent Spell, Dazing Spell, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, the list goes on and on.
My question to those who feel as Devilkiller and Erik Wilson would be what makes those above staple feats acceptable where old Crane Wing was not?
On a side note, and speaking from a position of heavy involvement with PFS, I do not feel that medium is the best stage upon which to gauge the general value of any given ability. I find doing so similar to testing in a vacuum, as PFS house rules and AR significantly change the scope of their game vs. a standard "these are the available Pathfinder products" game...
Honestly, I don't care for those feats either. I've b~#*&ed about Power Attack and Clustered Shots (and archery in general) many times on these threads. The other feats are metamagic feats and therefore useful pretty much only to full casters which, again, are blatantly, obviously, completely inexcusably OP.
As far as not using PFS to judge things, I guess I see your point in a way, but on the other hand it seems a little nuts. Since it's impossible to decide upon any kind of home-game based standard, wouldn't PFS be the best thing to use? Or really kind of the only thing?
Generally speaking, I'm very aware that there are a lot of people who basically want to dispense with the very notion of balance in this game. I think that's a mistake, even though I am fully aware of the uphill battle involved in trying to balance an archaic, bloated system like this one. Sure, you can always argue that balance is only achieved internally from group to group anyway. But such an attitude presents major challenges to the very idea of organized play, not to mention game design in general. If balance isn't a thing, then what exactly are we paying these people for? Anyone can make up a bunch of mechanics when balance is off the table.
I should probably be clear about my position in general, though, because i recognize that it's kind of extreme. I think pathfinder is a great game if you ban about a third of the classes, somewhere around 15 or 20 feats, and a handful of other stuff. Mostly I'm talking about banning all the full caster classes. Alternatively though, you can even keep those classes if you instead ban about a third of the extant spells. That works too.
I ignore the nerf. If they got nothing better to do than nerf one of the very few legit feat chains then ill just ignore it when I'm the GM.
I on the other hand would suggest that banning or nerfing many, many more of what optimizers would consider "the few legit feats (and spells and classes)" is the best possible use of their time.
Never bothered to implement the change. No idea why Paizo developers decided to nerf considering the far worse balance problems in the game. I imagine it has to do with their focus being solely on the low level game. The one part I agree with is that the Paizo developers created a problem with the Crane Style feats because Master of Many Styles archetype allowed a PC to obtain it far too early. Then because the Paizo developers screwed up allowing it too early, they made it worthless with their attempt to make it balanced.
The realty is simply. Crane Wing was Deflect Arrows for melee attacks. Deflect Arrows wasn't a problem, no idea why Crane Wing was.
So far I've seen various users drop Crane Wing like a hot potato, and it's yet to surface in any game I've participated in.
Crane Style occasionally pops up, but Crane Wing and Crane Riposte are functionally extinct in my gaming community.
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No idea why Paizo developers decided to nerf considering the far worse balance problems in the game.
Because they wanted to make the Swashbuckler's "Parry & Riposte" look better. So instead of improving that ability, they decided to nerf CW into complete uselessness.
Same reason why they nerfed Animal Companions instead of buffing Cavaliers...
I think some whiny GMs were also crying foul because they couldn't think of "advanced" tactics such as "attack the same target twice" or "use a ranged weapon".
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No idea why Paizo developers decided to nerf considering the far worse balance problems in the game.Because they wanted to make the Swashbuckler's "Parry & Riposte" look better. So instead of improving that ability, they decided to nerf CW into complete uselessness.
Same reason why they nerfed Animal Companions instead of buffing Cavaliers...
I think some whiny GMs were also crying foul because they couldn't think of "advanced" tactics such as "attack the same target twice" or "use a ranged weapon".
From what I heard it was from PFS complaints, where the GMs often have to play enemies as pants on head stupid, because tactics dictate.
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From what I heard it was from PFS complaints, where the GMs often have to play enemies as pants on head stupid, because tactics dictate.No idea why Paizo developers decided to nerf considering the far worse balance problems in the game.Because they wanted to make the Swashbuckler's "Parry & Riposte" look better. So instead of improving that ability, they decided to nerf CW into complete uselessness.
Same reason why they nerfed Animal Companions instead of buffing Cavaliers...
I think some whiny GMs were also crying foul because they couldn't think of "advanced" tactics such as "attack the same target twice" or "use a ranged weapon".
That's the official explanation, but I doubt it's the real one... Or at very least, I doubt it's the only one.
They mysteriously also only addressed Paragon Surge after it was mentioned it was better than the Arcanist's Quick Study exploit... Even though Paragon Surge has been known to be extremely broken from day 1.
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i'm surprised paizo hasn't simply banned MoMS in PFS, since it seems to be the source of the problem for style feats being seen as 'broken'.
they ruined a Nice Thing simply because it didn't play nice with their houserules (and poor encounter balance therein) because something ELSE was exploiting a backdoor to get it earlier than intended.
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Now that the stigma of "overpowered" is somewhat diminished I was actually thinking of taking the new Crane Wing with two of my 3 current PCs. I'll grant that the Crane Wing feat itself is only OK for most PCs, but a lot of feats are only OK. Crane Style seems nice though, much more efficient than Combat Expertise. Crane Riposte improves that efficiency and adds an AoO, so it seems nice too. I'm sure there will be Crane Riposte detractors too, but if you plan to fight defensively most of the time the +1 to hit is pretty similar to Weapon Focus, so the AoO is really just a bonus.
An OK feat sandwiched between two pretty good ones doesn't seem so bad to me. I know I won't change the opinions of the dedicated errata haters, but maybe people with less strongly held opinions read these boards sometimes. If so perhaps they'll give Crane Wing a chance.
I don't find that Combat Expertise has been a very exciting feat for my Dirty Fighter. Improved and Greater Trip and Dirty Trick were essential to the character I wanted to play though, so prereqs were the price I had to pay. The 13 Int prereq for Combat Expertise is a real killer for an Orc. I'd rather complain about that than Crane Wing. Defensive minded PCs with Monk levels are likely to be taking Dodge anyhow.
@Lormyr - I'm not the one who nerfed Crane Wing, so I can't explain why other powerful feats and abilities were left untouched. Maybe the squeakiest wheel got the oil. Anyhow, out of the feats you mentioned the one which really stands to me out is Dazing Spell. I'm a little ashamed to say that I've used it in the past. The DM was very sad, and for all future games I've suggested a house rule that targets get a new save each round to break the dazed effect. Even with that nobody has gone back and used the feat again yet.
I have a Goblin Brawler (Fighter archetype, not ACG) who uses a 2 level dip for MoMS and took Snake Style and Crane Style. After the nerf and the introduction of the ACG, I've reworked the build to drop Crane Wing and Crane Riposte and have added in Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge - the build now uses Crane or Pummeling in most fights, and Crane is no longer a cornerstone of the build.
That's the only build out of a great many that I've found Crane Style useful in, in its current form.
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From what I heard it was from PFS complaints, where the GMs often have to play enemies as pants on head stupid, because tactics dictate.No idea why Paizo developers decided to nerf considering the far worse balance problems in the game.Because they wanted to make the Swashbuckler's "Parry & Riposte" look better. So instead of improving that ability, they decided to nerf CW into complete uselessness.
Same reason why they nerfed Animal Companions instead of buffing Cavaliers...
I think some whiny GMs were also crying foul because they couldn't think of "advanced" tactics such as "attack the same target twice" or "use a ranged weapon".
The frustrating aspect of that being that PFS play is pretty specialized and already has a mechanism in place for dealing with PFS-specific issues, including over-powered or inappropriate races, classes and feats. They just dropped Tieflings and Aasimar from PFS-legal options but didn't banish them from the regular game because it would have been both foolish and unnecessary to do so. Just banning Crane Style feats would have solved the PFS issue without sending ripples throughout the rest of the gaming community...
In my opinion they used a rocket launcher for a fly swatter, ignoring the fact that there were plenty of actual rocket launcher-worthy issues already out there.
comparing Crane Wing in its old form to Arrow Deflection is comparing apples to oranges.
The biggest difference is that ranged attacks are most often full attacks. Melee attacks are frequently standard attacks, and the PC can force the monster to only using single attacks with simple movement and positioning.
Ranged attacks are also far less frequent then melee encounters.
Crane Wing simply results in an absolute melee advantage over someone who doesn't have it, especially with clever play and at lower levels (the entry point problem). Arrow Deflection does not have the same effect on a fight.
==Aelryinth
unless you've got stupid-high AC (you know, as monks are wont to do, since damage is certainly out of the question) and the only arrow likely to hit you is the first, you can just slap it away and sit pretty as the rest black out the sun.
comparing Crane Wing in its old form to Arrow Deflection is comparing apples to oranges.
The biggest difference is that ranged attacks are most often full attacks. Melee attacks are frequently standard attacks, and the PC can force the monster to only using single attacks with simple movement and positioning.
Ranged attacks are also far less frequent then melee encounters.
Crane Wing simply results in an absolute melee advantage over someone who doesn't have it, especially with clever play and at lower levels (the entry point problem). Arrow Deflection does not have the same effect on a fight.
==Aelryinth
That's why they never should have let Master of Many Styles allow for Crane Style early. Crane Style is fine at later levels. Not so much at earlier levels.
If you do use the move around tactic, you're not doing much damage either. So it really doesn't function all that well at later levels. That is where Crane Wing should have been limited.
If it wouldn't have been an early level feat, it would have been fine. No different than abilities like Come and Get Me or spells like enervate, that once launched provide an extreme advantage.
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That's why they never should have let Master of Many Styles allow for Crane Style early. Crane Style is fine at later levels. Not so much at earlier levels.
It is interesting to note that every problem anyone might have with Crane Style goes out of the window when MoMS is restricted as a PFS-legal archetype. That's the easy change that needed to be made (since Crane Wing is hardly the only 'abused' mechanic that MoMS allows), and would have addressed all of the table issues while allowing for home games to continue unmolested.
NOt really, Piccolo.
The fact is, you can shut down a missile guy by running up and getting him into melee, or simply going behind cover. If you don't, he can sit there and shoot multiple arrows at you, even at low levels. Arrow Deflection is nice, but unless you're stuck in an open field, you don't need it to avoid an archer. IF you do have it...it has much less effect, because Archers get multiple attacks sooner, and more of them.
And yes, attacking someone only once a round does do less damage then full attacking them. Except you had Crane Riposte, so you automatically got an extra attack at full BAB every single round. If you have Spring Attack, for example, you get basically two attacks a round, and your enemy gets 0. His charge attack is useless unless he has Pounce. His Vital Strike is useless.
Arrow Deflection and Crane Wing are in no ways similar. Now, if Arrow Deflection worked on ranged spell attacks, maybe we could talk.
==Aelryinth
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I still use the pre-nerf version of the feat. I figure if the Wizard can still summon a celestial horde of angels, the fighter can block one melee attack a round.
point-blank mastery is not an issue with 95% of enemy archers. It requires weapon spec or a ranger with the archery tree...in which case you're fighting a f/4 or r/6, and they should have something a little special.
Kinda like saying favored enemy is broken because Horizon Walker/Rogues can abuse it with Extra Favored Terrain.
==Aelryinth
point-blank mastery is not an issue with 95% of enemy archers.I'm talking about PCs, not enemy archers.
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SO, you're talking about enemies with Arrow Deflection vs your archer? Vs how much you want to fight someone with Crane Wing with your non-crane melee?
That's the comparison here.
==Aelryinth
These days if I want to build a character spec'd to deflect attacks I play a swashbuckler with Snake Style.
I wish Crane Wing still worked, but there are other ways to get roughly the same effect (which is why I ignore the nerf when I'm GMing).
I thought the comparison was to PCs with Crane Wing.That's the comparison here.
==Aelryinth
No, someone was comparing the value of Arrow Deflection to the value of Crane Wing (old form).
==Aelryinth
All of my characters who were using the Crane Wing feats before are STILL using the same Crane Wing feats.
Most are nearly as effective as they were before. The biggest difference, I think, is their inability to block natural 20s now.
My group opted to not use the nerfed version and use the version as printed in our books. Never had problem with Crane Style so didn't see a need to nerf it. There were only few combats were the style was "I win" but I no issue with that as the Wizard pulls that same card in situation too.