Friend just died in our Skull and Shackles campaign. I have had a close call, so thought I would build my backup character. I think a summoner would bring everything I wanted but the summoner guide posted in the sticky is really old not taking new material into account. Anyone know where I can get some guidance?
Otherwise, I think I have my Eidolon fleshed out. I was more worried about what to do with my Summoner. I would really need to decide if I'm going to cast spells, this could be issue due to the lack of number of spells. Or if i'm going to focus on melee, I don't really want to risk myself being i'm a second pool of HP for the Eidolon.
Any tips or experience others have had that they want to share?
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Yeah much like a Druid in 3.5 you cant really screw up if you are a summoner.
Unless you are a synthethicist, thee are 0 reasons to go into melee.
If you wanna tank you summon something. Save your eidolon for boss fights.
You really want to read the summon monster guide, and also make prep cards of your favorite summons.
Really the only problem you will have with the summoner will be taking track of your critters.
Ok think of your eidolon as the ghost of a relative. Like the captain bleak beard returned. Give him the two shadow evolutions which effectively makes it a ghost. Also give him the skilled evolution for profession sailor. He wont ever fail. Also if the dm is ok with a second evolution spent on skilled, give him the perception evolution. During the battles he can be piloting the ship. Also give him the skill intimidate to keep the crew in line. Get him a ghost touch cutless.
If I were you, I would spend your aspect on fly. This way you will have the permanent ability to fly. That and invisibility you can stay out of the fights. The best spells to cast on an enemy ship is your create pit spells and summon spells. A good tactic is to fly above enemy ship and summon creatures and have them attack the steering wheel. The yoke??? Then have the rest of your ship attack as the enemy cant get away.
Ok think of your eidolon as the ghost of a relative. Like the captain bleak beard returned. Give him the two shadow evolutions which effectively makes it a ghost. Also give him the skilled evolution for profession sailor. He wont ever fail. Also if the dm is ok with a second evolution spent on skilled, give him the perception evolution. During the battles he can be piloting the ship. Also give him the skill intimidate to keep the crew in line. Get him a ghost touch cutless.
A great RP idea but also dooming him to uselessness. OP, if you take this (pretty neat!) idea, also take the master summoner archetype. You will not need many evolution points to make the out-of-combat skillmonkey as rogar describes, and master summoner allows you to put him away in combat and use your summoning powers to contribute instead.
Due to being Skull and Shackles and not wanting to trivialize the rest of the party, Im going with the Aquatic Base form with only one attack that has reach. I will pick up trip evolution and use him for battle field control. This way I wont be stepping on the toes of the melee types (which we are heavy on).
I was looking for an archetype that trades away Summon Monster so i didnt have to deal with it. I know its more powerful but I dont want to flood the board with summons and once again, trivialize everyone else contribution. Since we are so melee heavy I figured Haste and some battle field control would help the most.
Right now Im pondering Tandem trip and using a flying blade for the summoner. This would allow me to be in melee, provide flanks, and cast while using the Flying Blade for AoOs
Due to being Skull and Shackles and not wanting to trivialize the rest of the party, Im going with the Aquatic Base form with only one attack that has reach. I will pick up trip evolution and use him for battle field control. This way I wont be stepping on the toes of the melee types (which we are heavy on).
I was looking for an archetype that trades away Summon Monster so i didnt have to deal with it. I know its more powerful but I dont want to flood the board with summons and once again, trivialize everyone else contribution. Since we are so melee heavy I figured Haste and some battle field control would help the most.
Right now Im pondering Tandem trip and using a flying blade for the summoner. This would allow me to be in melee, provide flanks, and cast while using the Flying Blade for AoOs
This is why I suggested the ghost captain. He will not trivialize combat. But allow you tactical advantage in every ship to ship combat. Using your summons to set up combat rather than taking over combat. Grease is also a great spell to aid your fellow ship mates.
Summoners are completely adequate secondary melee characters all by themselves (d8, mid BAB, light armor) and can be fantastic with the right races and feats.
They have access to enlarge person, shield and mage armor at first level and can wear light armor if they want to skip MA.
At 14 base strength with enlarge person, shield and a longspear and you'll be a combat menace all your own, especially on the tiny deck of a ship.
A sea campaign gives you the rare chance to play a Merfolk, which is so much win.
If you don't want to combat summon, use your summons for elemental scouts. Sea combat will be much more effective with your massive scouting air elementals and drowning water elementals. Look at the speed and time summoned of air elementals. You could scout huge swaths of territory around your ship. Give that druid some spinning elementals to power her lightning bolts.
Due to being Skull and Shackles and not wanting to trivialize the rest of the party, Im going with the Aquatic Base form with only one attack that has reach. I will pick up trip evolution and use him for battle field control. This way I wont be stepping on the toes of the melee types (which we are heavy on).
I was looking for an archetype that trades away Summon Monster so i didnt have to deal with it. I know its more powerful but I dont want to flood the board with summons and once again, trivialize everyone else contribution. Since we are so melee heavy I figured Haste and some battle field control would help the most.
Right now Im pondering Tandem trip and using a flying blade for the summoner. This would allow me to be in melee, provide flanks, and cast while using the Flying Blade for AoOs
Go spirit summoner, you trade summon for hexes and spirit. It's also a good way to add spells to your spell list. This is my favorite archetype for summoner.
Also go look at the hunter, you seem desperate to jump into melee and hunter does the 2 as one ccharacters better than summoner. Hunter is a team versus summoner is a main & secondary.
If you want more help just post again with where you're at.
@Rogar: While the ghost captain is a really cool idea, It is not really what I had in mind. Nor does it bring what we need the most, Battlefield control.
@Onyxlion: I was looking at Spirit summoner, but the only none melee type we have in the group is a witch. I dont want to step on her toes with hexes and whatnot.
Anyway, This was more of a request for information on the actual summoner. What is the best way to build just the summoner (got the Eidolon done) for S&S? THere is only 1 guide in the advice forum and its really outdated.
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Eidolons have builds themselves, one of which include grappler, this will give you control and also some damage trought rake.
The skilled evolution can make your eidolon a skill monkey
If you specializae your eidolon on manuevers you can make them control
now S&S has like 70% encounters near water so a water eidolon is totally viable. Summon monster can be used when you are not near water.
also summon monster is probably the most versatile spell ever, it can produce from casters to tanks to controllers so it really pays off to learn hwo it works
I was looking for an archetype that trades away Summon Monster so i didnt have to deal with it. I know its more powerful but I dont want to flood the board with summons and once again, trivialize everyone else contribution. Since we are so melee heavy I figured Haste and some battle field control would help the most.
Check out the Spirit Summoner archetype. Might be just what you're looking for.
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A few random thoughts.
- Avoid Master Summoner. It's overtuned and it slows down the game.
- Keep up the Aquatic Eidolon. Large size, swallow whole and high strength means you can have a rad Megashark companion.
- If you go with Aquatic, it's less likely you'll have a flank buddy. The Martial Summoner is a bit riskier. Consider a traditional caster.
- The Summoner's Handbook has aged quite gracefully. This is mainly due to CRB and APG content still filling in for what you need. Spell Focus and the two summon improvement feats are by far the best choices fo4 all but the most melee focused summoners, and most non core spells are too situational to merit selection on you precious few spell slots. New evolutions do nothing to change the Single/Multi weapon, Natural/Crafted quadrants of building a combat capable Eidolon.
- Summon Monster is still a fantastic ace in the hole. Never underestimate access to useful meat shields and backup melee attackers when your spell component pouch is gone/sundered or you're caught with your Eidolon unsommoned and no time to call it out. This ability can prevent TPKs.
If you're playing with a witch why not have both of you take coven so you can boost each others CL. If you have access to gillmen/halfling race books then you could make a spirit summoner mega-suporter with hexes, the move action aid feats/swift action aid feats, spells of your, plus you're eidolon you'll be a beast that helps everyone win.
This way you'd never step on anyone's toes and they'll all beg you to help them. Being able to add 4+ to caster level and most other rolls is huge.
I'm pretty sure two non-hag witches using Coven together isn't accepted at all tables, so you probably wan't to discuss with DM first. I think you're best odds are to go with a Cleric, Oracle, or Druid instead if you don't want to emphasize on summons and mostly just want a pet and buffing ability.
Yeah if they don't follow rules. Read the second part of the coven hex.
Coven (Ex)
Effect: The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch’s caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch’s spells and all of her hexes.
Emphasis on the bolded part, meaning it's a separate ability from being in a coven.
Thanks for the comments, but im looking for specific advice on the Summoner, not the Eidolon. Im not going with the Spirit Summoner or Master Summoner. Rosc is the only one that gave some specific feat advice. Thank you Rosc.
Im trying to determine if my feats should be based around being a melee or being a caster, and what will I be doing with the Summoner. I believe the trip based Eidolon will really enhance all the other melees in the group without stealing any spotlight. I have built him to help the others shine. STill what is Mr Summoner doing after casting haste? What feats are good? Playstyle?
@rosc: THanks for the tips, not sure im going to go with the Spell focus and summon feats cause if played correctly the summon feats wont come into play. THey are a good back up. I would have to go through the summoners spell list to see if its worth getting spells focus. Any other good caster feats you can think of?
@Alakallanar: Thanks for the links, they helped. Aquatic Eidolon still has a land speed of 20. It will function just as well on land as on the ship.
Thanks for the comments, but im looking for specific advice on the Summoner, not the Eidolon. Im not going with the Spirit Summoner or Master Summoner. Rosc is the only one that gave some specific feat advice. Thank you Rosc.
Im trying to determine if my feats should be based around being a melee or being a caster, and what will I be doing with the Summoner. I believe the trip based Eidolon will really enhance all the other melees in the group without stealing any spotlight. I have built him to help the others shine. STill what is Mr Summoner doing after casting haste? What feats are good? Playstyle?
@rosc: THanks for the tips, not sure im going to go with the Spell focus and summon feats cause if played correctly the summon feats wont come into play. THey are a good back up. I would have to go through the summoners spell list to see if its worth getting spells focus. Any other good caster feats you can think of?
You know I was trying to give you playstyle advice. You know give you options that fit your criteria of not stepping on what others were doing. In fact I gave advice to support all the things the other players were doing. Giving you options apart from melee or ranged, sorry I didn't build you a melee/archer summoner just microscopicly less powerful than the other players builds I know nothing about.
You got real options if you wanted to play a gimp fighter you could have just searched up some fighter builds and threw out some feats.
Not don't get me wrong I'm not saying my ideas were good/right you just seem to be stuck on a class that doesn't suit what you're wanted to do/not do.
Thanks for the comments, but im looking for specific advice on the Summoner, not the Eidolon. Im not going with the Spirit Summoner or Master Summoner. Rosc is the only one that gave some specific feat advice. Thank you Rosc.
Im trying to determine if my feats should be based around being a melee or being a caster, and what will I be doing with the Summoner. I believe the trip based Eidolon will really enhance all the other melees in the group without stealing any spotlight. I have built him to help the others shine. STill what is Mr Summoner doing after casting haste? What feats are good? Playstyle?
@rosc: THanks for the tips, not sure im going to go with the Spell focus and summon feats cause if played correctly the summon feats wont come into play. THey are a good back up. I would have to go through the summoners spell list to see if its worth getting spells focus. Any other good caster feats you can think of?
I think I am still not entirely sure what you are trying to accomplish and why you want to do it with the summoner.
Apparently, you dont want to have a powerhouse eidolon since you already have several meleers in the party, and you dont want to use the summon monster ability. So what is it about the summoner that you want? The spell list?
In an attempt to actually get at what you want, I have a question, are you permitted 3rd party material? Because there is a different class I'd recommend that combines the magus and summoner spell list, with a pet that can (if you choose the right one) not be a melee monster, that isnt focused on summoning things and can wear light armor and be a descent secondary combatant. Its called the dracomancer by rogue genius games. Its a 6 level caster, it has access to both the summoner and magus list (lots of battlefield control in there) and you get a pet dragon, and in the list there are lots that arent melee powerhouses (some are even tiny sized at low levels). Often they can be used mostly for their breath weapon(some of which can have battlefield control effects), while the focus of the character remains on what the dracomancer does.
onyxlion, I appreciate all the advice I get. Your tips are all based around the spirit summoner and hexes. And while good advice, not where i was looking to go with my character. I guess this is partially my fault for not expressing what I was looking for.
Later Im going to have to go through the summoner spell list in detail and figure out my spells per day to see if there is even a chance of being full time caster. Otherwise I might as well put the 3/4 BAB to use and get a reach weapon with relevant feats. I was planing on being half elf so I have the option of picking up exotic weapon proficiency with a cool reach weapon. SHould give the character something unique.
onyxlion, I appreciate all the advice I get. Your tips are all based around the spirit summoner and hexes. And while good advice, not where i was looking to go with my character. I guess this is partially my fault for not expressing what I was looking for.
Later Im going to have to go through the summoner spell list in detail and figure out my spells per day to see if there is even a chance of being full time caster. Otherwise I might as well put the 3/4 BAB to use and get a reach weapon with relevant feats. I was planing on being half elf so I have the option of picking up exotic weapon proficiency with a cool reach weapon. SHould give the character something unique.
My advice aside the others gave great advice as well, thing is I still feel you are trying to cram that square peg into that round whole. I really don't think summoner is what you're looking for and I'm afraid that after you make this summoner you won't be satisfied. I feel you're trying to be secondary by force instead of want. That you're trying to be less but not be less. Like you're trying to pick subpar just so you can later say "no look it's subpar I swear" in case you aren't. Honestly without calling out class names how do you envision what you want to play?
Again I know this isn't what you're asking but have you looked at the hunter(divine hunter), inquisitor(sacred huntsman), ranger, brawler (wild child), all of these seem like more of what you actually want to do.
Edit: I thought I had suggested the other classes before the spirit summoner but I didn't, must have been another thread.
thing is I still feel you are trying to cram that square peg into that round whole.
This might be part of the problem.
Honestly without calling out class names how do you envision what you want to play?
I was trying to fill roles that we dont have. What we are really lacking is Battlefield control and healing. Since all of our damage is melee oriented (Scarred Rager Barbarian & Fighter/Rogue Hybrid) I really would like haste. I was think wizard but then came across the Summoner.
Never use Paizo to find guides, Zenith seems to be the most up to date with the widest selection, I keep it bookmarked, lots of summoner guides.
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thing is I still feel you are trying to cram that square peg into that round whole.This might be part of the problem.
Honestly without calling out class names how do you envision what you want to play?I was trying to fill roles that we dont have. What we are really lacking is Battlefield control and healing. Since all of our damage is melee oriented (Scarred Rager Barbarian & Fighter/Rogue Hybrid) I really would like haste. I was think wizard but then came across the Summoner.
If you want healing and control you dont really want a summoner. Probably a cleric with the right domain.
Even bard is a better propect for filling those holes than summoner
I have only player a master summoner.
But from what your saying and playing skull and shackles, I.think summoner could work great. Your eidolon, flanks and trips helping out the melee folks.
I could see your summoner going either way. You can be caster heavy remember UMD and wands. Think of spells like create pit, grease, obscuring mist, that last a while for one casting. If a caster be familiar with the summon tables, these will greatly expand your spells, and provide a backup should your eidolon die.
For melee I might look at either reach and pile in, or use your big Cha, an look at intimidate along with dazzling display. Debuff all the bad guys for your allies, both melee and caster. Gives you something to do without using spell slots.
Also consider the options that can boost simple spells, point blank shot and a vial of liquid ice can help ray of frost to 3-5 dmg, which can help polish something off.
Maybe consider archery?
Enjoy
Also remember summoners can heal, either thru their summons, or infernal healing spell or wands. Might look at summon good monster to expand your options.
If you want healing and control you dont really want a summoner. Probably a cleric with the right domain.Even bard is a better propect for filling those holes than summoner
Actually, a summoner is great for healing and battlefield control. But only if they, you know, actually summon. Because they can just summon creatures that perfectly fit those roles. Rejecting the Summon Monster ability, whether it's a Master Summoner or not right off the bat means that you really shouldn't be playing a summoner while trying to fill the control or healing role.
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@rosc: THanks for the tips, not sure im going to go with the Spell focus and summon feats cause if played correctly the summon feats wont come into play. They are a good back up. I would have to go through the summoners spell list to see if its worth getting spells focus. Any other good caster feats you can think of?
A lot of the good Summoner spells are conjuration spells, so that feat alone will pull its own weight.
As for caster feats? Improved Initiative is key so you can kick off the fight with a great spell like Grease, Glitterdust, or Black Tentacles. If you're starting at level 1, Noble Scion from the Inner Sea World Guide will let you add Charisma to initiative instead of Dexterity. One of these will give you an edge, both means you'll be leaving even Divination Wizards in the dust until the midgame. And a special shout out goes to the Spell Penetration and pals, even if a lot of your best spells (Create Pit, Glitterdust, all of your buffs) ignore spell resistance altogether.
Metamagic feats are, in most cases, not worth it. Changing your cast times from standard to full action sets you back. If you're really into the idea of metamagics, pick up proper Rods instead. The Summoner's list 'discounts' a lot of great spells, meaning a lower Spell Level 1-3 rod will work for you in ways that it can't for other classes. (Dazing rod plus Wall of Fire, combo'd with Black Tentacles is exceptionally vicious.)
As for your wishes for becoming a full caster? Sadly, the Summoner's limited spells per day hold you back, especially compared to a "career caster" like a Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer. And even they have to fall back on things like Channeling and Hexes when they're preserving spell slots. Speaking of said special abilities, your normal spells plus your Summon SLA are how you keep up. I know you don't want to use the ability all that much, but as long as you
1) Don't play Master Summoner
2) Keep notes on hand for quick reference to creature stats
you'll do fine. Plus? Until you start playing the lategame shenanigans (mostly summoning groups of monsters with their own spells) most summons will be a lateral shift or even a downgrade compared to an Eidolon in straight combat.
The long and short of Summoner Feats is that you're a Summoner; Lots of your power is tied into your various summons and Eidolon, so that really eases the burden for feats. You'll want to go early, cast a good spell for the situation, and survive to keep supporting.
The only exception is for Melee brute/skirmish Summoners. In that case, I advise two routes, both using a longspear and spiked gauntlet combo.
1) Arcane Strike, Power Attack at level 3, and then some mix of utility (as described above, but also consider Combat Casting) and survivability (Fort-boosting feats aren't a bad idea)
2) 14 or so dex, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack. Throw in Arcane Strike at level 5 because that's when it's damage starts to scale. You're going to play this Reach Cleric style. Get close to the enemy (15 feet) and cast a useful opening spell. Then, when they come to you, they'll provoke attacks of opportunity. There's much more tact to the style, but that's the basics of it. Read up on the Reach Cleric guide for a few ideas on basic tactical play.
I wouldn't advise going for Archery or Finesse styles. They're incredibly feat intensive and the cost isn't worth the payoff for your particular class.