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all thrown weapons are ranged. since this thing exist in the rules section of the game:
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).emphasis mine
basically, what the above says is that:
being a part of one category doesn't exlude you on being a part of a second
thrown weapons are ranged weapons too.a dagger is a simple light medioum melee, thrown weapon.
this means that it is simultaneously:
simple
melee
ranged (thrown)
light
medioum sized
I saw that as well. However, that statement doesn't say all thrown weapons are ranged weapons. There ARE thrown weapons that are ranged weapons, and there are thrown weapons that are melee weapons. It says ranged weapons can include thrown and projectile weapons. The opposite doesn't hold true.
Again, it's like this - Feline pets include black and white, but not all back and white pets are feline. Or, to take it further, let's just use the same phrase the rules use, and swap out subjects...
Pets are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to own a pet (simple, formal, or exotic), the pet's popularity either in social situations (dogs) or alone (cats, which includes both black and white pets), its relative temperament (friendly, unfriendly, or down-right mean), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
It works out the same way. Cats can be black or white. But just because it's a black or white pet doesn't make it a cat.
In the same way, ranged weapons can be projectile or thrown. But just because it's a thrown weapon doesn't make it a ranged weapon.
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It doesn't say "ranged MAY be thrown or projectile"
It says ranged category IS thrown AND projectiles
Sure. I don't know of any ranged weapons that are not thrown or projectile. However, that still doesn't mean all thrown weapons are ranged weapons.
Again, feline pets are black and white. Are black pets feline? Not necessarily.
There are like 10categories of weapons.In order to not have 100tables (10x10)
Something has to give.In this case dagger was put into light simple melee, because that's it's frequent use.
I can't answer WHY something was done - I can only only guess. Your guess certainly seems reasonable to me. However, they DID put into light simple melee. Why didn't they put a remark in there saying, "also counts as a ranged weapon," or even simply put that in the general overarcing rules? "If a melee weapon is designed to be thrown, it also counts as a ranged weapon." Why didn't they put that? Because that wasn't their intent? Because they didn't think of it? Who knows. I don't think it's relevant to clearing this up further.
From 2nd edition returning daggers existed. And in about 20y playing I still haven't found one not treating a thrown dagger as ranged.Using your logic, since range increments only apply to thrown weapons, then they don't apply to dagger since it is not category thrown?
I'm sorry? Ranged increments only apply to thrown weapons? Where did you get that out of what I said? And how does other editions of D&D apply to this?
OK, let's put on the brakes here. We're not really getting anywhere with this. You believe it is clearly implied that daggers should be counted as ranged weapons, since they have a ranged increment. Whereas, I...well, honestly, I kind of believe it's implied as well. However, I'm saying RAW, they don't. We can debate more interpretation of the subject, but it doesn't really get us anywhere (although, as I've mentioned, if you see it spelled out clearly somewhere that daggers are ranged weapons, please point it out). However, I don't want to distract from the point of this thread anymore - the swashbucker. If you want to talk about it further, we can always hop over to the Rules forum. How about for now, we just agree to disagree?
Back on topic...
For the most part, I like how the designed the new class - I greatly prefer the swashbuckler over the duelist p-class. I am glad to see someone jumping on the 'guide grenade'. Thanks for the effort you put into it!
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There's no changing some peoples' opinions. Just let the guy read the rules wrong and let the talk go back to being about swashbucklers.
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I'll add in the Longsword and Aldori Dueling Sword, and should make a note of Fencing Grace, too, now that it's on the SRD.
The reason the Rhoka Sword, Urumi, and Katana are blue despite not being as easily accessible is simply because I rated the weapons based solely on, well, their use as weapons, not necessarily how easy it is to get or use them. So, the 18-20 crit range and higher damage makes them blue. Of course, there's really not a world of difference between 1d6 and 1d8 damage. Also, I did make note of the Agile quality and the fact that you'd have to bring up Slashing Grace with your GM when talking about the Wakizashi, and the Rapier since Fencing Grace wasn't a well-known thing when I wrote the guide.
On Power Attack: this came up earlier in the thread - it isn't a bad feat to take, but it requires that you spread your stats thinner, meaning you'll likely have less AC, Panache, skill points, or HP. Also, it lowers your chance to Parry, since the effects last until your next turn.
In any case, guide amended once again!
Even if you're getting it for free, it's still not that great, because that almost certainly means that you're choosing a race based on getting the feat for free. Unless that race was already the best choice for your character, that's not much better than having to spend a feat.
I do mention in the line for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, the section for the Rhoka Sword, urumi, and katana, AND the section on the cutlass, rapier, and scimitar that, if you can't get one of the Exotics for free, it's generally not worth spending a feat on. I'm not sure where else I could add it in that it's not already mentioned, really; is it that easy to miss?
Note again that the weapons are only rated by their stats in conjunction with the class, without factoring in their convenience or ease of acquisition. If that was taken into account, then, yes, the cutlass, rapier, or scimitar would be the best choice.
Hey, you're more than welcome to use RAI in your game - I certainly prefer to use that when I am DMing (I think it's silly not to apply Precise Shot with a thrown dagger). However, 'legalese'-wise, I don't see anything saying daggers are ranged weapons. When it comes to these guides, I usually prefer to see suggestions working within the existing rules. That's why I suggested mentioning it.
To keep this succinct, my argument is actually that "thrown daggers are ranged weapons" is both RAI and RAW. But, as pointed out by shroudb, this isn't the primary topic of the thread, so I'll simply leave you to your position and me to mine, and not derail this thread any further. ;)
On Power Attack: this came up earlier in the thread - it isn't a bad feat to take, but it requires that you spread your stats thinner, meaning you'll likely have less AC, Panache, skill points, or HP. Also, it lowers your chance to Parry, since the effects last until your next turn.
My complaint wasn't over the low rating you gave power attack. (Though I disagree with it thoroughly, your guide is to be based off of your values, not my own.) It's over the fact that you've rated Piranha Strike two stars higher when it gives the exact same bonus AND penalty, only it applies to fewer weapons. The only time Piranha Strike is actually better is if you two-weapon fight with light weapons, which usually prevents the swashbuckler from getting the precise strike bonus (a huge deal, esp. at the higher levels).
Again, what I'm pointing out is that you have one feat rated as two stars, and a weaker version of that same feat rated four stars later in the same section. If you want to leave it like that, then that's perfectly fine, but I figured I'd point that inconsistency to you.
I do mention in the line for the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, the section for the Rhoka Sword, urumi, and katana, AND the section on the cutlass, rapier, and scimitar that, if you can't get one of the Exotics for free, it's generally not worth spending a feat on. I'm not sure where else I could add it in that it's not already mentioned, really; is it that easy to miss?
Note again that the weapons are only rated by their stats in conjunction with the class, without factoring in their convenience or ease of acquisition. If that was taken into account, then, yes, the cutlass, rapier, or scimitar would be the best choice.
I'm sure he didn't miss it (much like I didn't miss it). We are pointing out that the feat cost you must pay for using these weapons is VERY significant, to the point of being cost prohibitive.
If you feel your rating shouldn't take this into account, then that too is perfectly fine; this is your guide. I'm sure these individuals, much like myself, are merely trying to give you inputs for bettering it. What actually goes into the guide is solely up to you.
Dervish Dancer archetype for Swashs seems good.
I rated Piranha Strike higher because it works better with the class and its general stat priorities than Power Attack does, not because it's a better feat overall. You get Weapon Finesse gifted, and light weapons work with everything you do(though you can't apply Slashing Grace to them), after all. I'll lower its rating a bit, though.
Also, updated to include the ACO archetypes! Unfortunately, I can't find any good Swashbuckler Feats from the book on the SRD other than Fencing Grace. I'm likely just missing them, or they've not been added yet, so if you notice any, bring them up!
Will you be adding any more Prestige Classes to the Guide? I've found the Inspired Blade Archetype works very well with the Duelist Prestige Class, mainly due both of them benefiting from high Int scores. Everything else is gravy.
First, I'm assuming you mean Inspired Blade, not Flying Blade.
For PFS skills are really important, and I feel like you're hurting on them by dumping Int so much. Bump it up to AT LEAST 8. I'd say bring Dex down to 16 and get your Int up, just for the skills.
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons include thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Daggers, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, and nets are examples of thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).
Just a couple of quotes from the PRD from Ultimate Equipment as to what is and is not a ranged weapon. Bolded parts are my emphasis. Thrown daggers are definately ranged weapons.
The swashbuckler counts as a fighter and gunslinger for feats as well, doesn't it? It should be able to qualify for feats, as I was under the impression that's how hybrid classes worked.
I consider this but my damage is terrible as is.
How is your damage terrible?
At 3, you have 1d6 + 10 = 4 (Dex) + 3 (Precise Strike) + 2 (Power Attack) + 1 (magic weapon)
At 5, you have 1d6 + 19 = 5 (Dex) + 5 (Precise Strike) + 4 (Power Attack) + 2 (Rapier Training) + 2 (Weapon Specialization) + 1 (magic weapon)
and with a crit range of 15-20 at level 5, that is pretty huge damage. With or without the Weapon Specialization. Plus you get extra attacks from riposting.
@thrice: thanks so much for this guide, excellent and really helpful!
A couple of things (my apologies if this is redundant as I confess to not having read the entire thread yet-- I do intend to for sure):
First, you mention in the guide that multi class dips aren't generally recommended, though you do qualify that by indicating you haven't spent much time analyzing this. What do you ( and everyone else) think about a dip into archaeologist given the synergies of the combined pools?
Second, to further explore the first point, what about the fate's favored trait when combined with the archaeologist dip? +2 on attack and damage and saves and skills most of the time ( given the big pool to draw from) with a one level dip seems worth it for a small delay in some abilities of the swashbuckler.
Last, though never optimized for melee, what about a Halfling with that dip, especially given the great saves they could accomplish with luck synergies and the fates favored trait? The bonus to dex and charisma is spot on for the clas and almost seems to make up for the lost damage.
Love to hear all your thoughts (and less about daggers not being thrown weapons, but I digress).
How is your damage terrible?At 3, you have 1d6 + 10 = 4 (Dex) + 3 (Precise Strike) + 2 (Power Attack) + 1 (magic weapon)
At 5, you have 1d6 + 19 = 5 (Dex) + 5 (Precise Strike) + 4 (Power Attack) + 2 (Rapier Training) + 2 (Weapon Specialization) + 1 (magic weapon)and with a crit range of 15-20 at level 5, that is pretty huge damage. With or without the Weapon Specialization. Plus you get extra attacks from riposting.
Which means even on a critical hit you do less damage than most 2 hander fighter/barb/paladin/exct do on a normal hit since precise isn't multiplied. This is before getting into archers. The damage does perk up if you're allowed to use dueling gloves. Without bonus attacks your damage isn't outstanding.
I'm very curious how your 5th level paladin is doing 40 damage on a normal hit without smiting?
I'm very curious how your 5th level paladin is doing 40 damage on a normal hit without smiting?I tend to assume smiting for paladins since oath of vengeance exists, but a paladin with very little optimization 2d6 (7) + 7 STR + 6 PA + 1 Weapon = 21 vs 22.5 but when smiting it's significantly higher(with an even better to hit).
Considering how terrible your saves are I expect more than "Worse than a paladin, barb, and fighter damage wise"
You'll also note your example does include weapon spec. My comment was on dropping Weapon spec made my already meh damage worse.
Where I come from, 22.5 is considered a higher number than 21, so not sure where "worse than a paladin" comes in.
Also, you have to take into account the swashbuckler gets more attacks due to Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Charmed Life does a huge amount to make swash saves good, and if you take Steadfast Personality that puts them over the top. Their saves with just Charmed Life are already better than your barb or fighter.
Where I come from, 22.5 is considered a higher number than 21, so not sure where "worse than a paladin" comes in.Mostly the -4 to hit and -4 damage he's at.
If the swash is hitting for 22.5 damage, and the paladin is hitting for 21 damage, how do you calculate the swash is at "-4 damage" compared to the paladin?
And where are you getting -4 to attack from?
Ok, well Smite is both situational and resource-limited.
Many enemies are not evil so smite will not work at all, and even against evil enemies the paladin can only smite a number of times per day.
If we're adding Smite damage to the paladin, at the very least we should be adding double Precise Strike damage to the swash.
@thrice: thanks so much for this guide, excellent and really helpful!
A couple of things (my apologies if this is redundant as I confess to not having read the entire thread yet-- I do intend to for sure):
First, you mention in the guide that multi class dips aren't generally recommended, though you do qualify that by indicating you haven't spent much time analyzing this. What do you ( and everyone else) think about a dip into archaeologist given the synergies of the combined pools?
On the subject of multi-class dips, though not with the archaeologist, I've been pondering the viability of a MoMS monk dip for Crane, even in its broken-by-poor-errata form. It seems like it might synergise well, and give a nice boost to crappy saves.
They're all exotics - any non-tengu swashbuckler who wants to use them will need to waste a feat to get proficiency first. (If you tell me half-elf doesn't waste a feat for this, you'd be incorrect, because they needing to chose this over a pseudo-Iron Will effect that stacks with the real Iron Will.)
Unless there's been an errata I haven't seen yet, Ancestral Arms swaps the free Skill Focus feat for a free Exotic or Martial weapon proficiency feat. It doesn't touch the Elven Immunities trait.
You'll notice that I never said that was the only way... or even the best way to build a Swashbuckler.
Well, sort of...
Oddly enough... When building a Swashbuckler you're still better off focusing on Str and getting a 2-handed weapon. You can even dump Cha and focus on Con and Wis to make up for your atrocious saves, then grab Extra Panache to compensate.
They're all exotics - any non-tengu swashbuckler who wants to use them will need to waste a feat to get proficiency first. (If you tell me half-elf doesn't waste a feat for this, you'd be incorrect, because they needing to chose this over a pseudo-Iron Will effect that stacks with the real Iron Will.)Unless there's been an errata I haven't seen yet, Ancestral Arms swaps the free Skill Focus feat for a free Exotic or Martial weapon proficiency feat. It doesn't touch the Elven Immunities trait.
He didn't mean Elven Immunities, but Dual Minded, which gives a flat +2 to all will saves, not just enchantment effects, by giving up Adaptability.
Unless there's been an errata I haven't seen yet, Ancestral Arms swaps the free Skill Focus feat for a free Exotic or Martial weapon proficiency feat. It doesn't touch the Elven Immunities trait.He didn't mean Elven Immunities, but Dual Minded, which gives a flat +2 to all will saves, not just enchantment effects, by giving up Adaptability.
Ahh, well that makes more sense...
Again, it's like this - Feline pets include black and white, but not all back and white pets are feline.
so... that's not how that works. Saying "ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons" is not the same as what you said. the previous statement refers to two categories of weapons. "blacks and whites" aren't categories of animals. so it would have been more appropriate to say "felines, which includes both domestic and wild cats" or "felines, which includes both lynx and pumas" except that a more parallel statement doesn't support your argument.
I'd like to mention that the best multiclass for a Swashbuckler, in my opinion, and fully in terms of DPR, is a Rondelero Duelist Fighter 5.
At 5th level, you are allowed to replace offhand buckler attacks with mainhand falcata attacks.
Using high Dexterity to qualify for TWF feats and Swash Finesse + Slashing Grace to use Falcatas handily, this build could essentially Flurry of Falcatas, getting extra Falcata attacks on a full attack.
You'd be a high critting machine this way.
A note on multiclassing:
A few levels sprinked in on occasion can net you a few useful style feats. Notably Snake Style and Snake Fang.
This combination makes your unarmed strikes deal piercing damage and any time an opponent misses you, you can make an AoO.
This synergises well with Panther Style and it's follow up feats. This means you can run past an enemy and provoke an attack of opportunity. If the foe makes that attack, you punch him (granting a -2 to his attack) and then parry. If you parry, you can punch him again (because he missed) and then follow that up with an immediate second punch. Then you can stop next to him and punch him a fourth time or keep going and do it again against another foe.
This combination does depend on GMs not deciding to ignore your tactic. If all of your enemies are "too smart" to take AoOs it can me a problem. Smart enemies will understand that taking AoOs on you is a mistake when they see the combination once, but then you start making Dirty Trick maneuvers without Improved Dirty Trick.
Sorry about the long absence; I just moved unexpectedly, and haven't been able to update at all.
As for multiclassing: I considered putting in a word about Master of Many Styles, because I really like that archetype, and I do think it could synergize well.
As for Archeologist Bard with Fate's Favored: Go for it. However, I'm not sure if that's really a "Luck pool" that the archetype gets, so I don't believe it would actually stack/combine with Panache. Seems to just be a number of Rounds/Day you get the bonus thing, not a pool you spend to get it. I could be wrong though, might be errata somewhere.
Great guide.
Can you explain why your first build doesn't have agile manoeuvres when it's clearly a dex build?
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Also in your recommendation for agile manoeuvres you mention that there are ways to use dirty tricks etc without having to make a check. How?
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Am I missing something?
Anyone?
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Agile Maneuvers is really useless for a swashbuckler. They get to add DEX to their Disarm and trips due to weapon finesse, and then they get automatic maneuvers.
I didn't read any but the last post in this thread maybe it's been covered, but... Speaking of Targeting Strike, Orange are you kidding me? This is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. Not only do you do your regular damage most of the time (except the disarm), but they are automatic. There is no beating CMD's, hit it's AC, and down it goes. Don't want that evil barbarian to keep his falchion? He drops it, no save, no CMD nothing. Want the giant 15 size categories bigger than you to go prone? He does.
So yeah essentially using your move action* to make your maneuvers automatically happen, totally worth it.
*It's a move action because your attack still does damage.
What about dirty trick manoeuvres? Don't you need dex for them?