What are your thoughts on the different dares? I'm fond of Frantically Nimble, and the success condition synergizes with opportune parry nicely.
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What are your thoughts on the different dares? I'm fond of Frantically Nimble, and the success condition synergizes with opportune parry nicely.
Out for Blood is about the only way to get a weapon with a 15-20 Threat Range.
(Swashbuckler Weapon training on say a Rapier making the weapon 16-20 Critical threat chance. Out for Blood increases the range by one, and thus meaning a 25% to crit with each attack).
Since you have a full BAB and the Parry/Riposte combo you can be more confident that you'll get your panache back on a crit. Good times.
What are your thoughts on the different dares? I'm fond of Frantically Nimble, and the success condition synergizes with opportune parry nicely.Out for Blood is about the only way to get a weapon with a 15-20 Threat Range.
(Swashbuckler Weapon training on say a Rapier making the weapon 16-20 Critical threat chance. Out for Blood increases the range by one, and thus meaning a 25% to crit with each attack).
Since you have a full BAB and the Parry/Riposte combo you can be more confident that you'll get your panache back on a crit. Good times.
Uh... Improved Critical/Swashbuckler Weapon Training turns 18-20 critical threat ranges into 15-20... In fact, 16-20 is the one threat range that is impossible to get.
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Uh... Improved Critical/Swashbuckler Weapon training turns 18-20 critical threat ranges into 15-20... In fact, 16-20 is the one threat range that is impossible to get without Out For Blood.What are your thoughts on the different dares? I'm fond of Frantically Nimble, and the success condition synergizes with opportune parry nicely.Out for Blood is about the only way to get a weapon with a 15-20 Threat Range.
(Swashbuckler Weapon training on say a Rapier making the weapon 16-20 Critical threat chance. Out for Blood increases the range by one, and thus meaning a 25% to crit with each attack).
Since you have a full BAB and the Parry/Riposte combo you can be more confident that you'll get your panache back on a crit. Good times.
Sorry I meant 14-20. Which is even better.
Sorry I meant 14-20. Which is even better.Uh... Improved Critical/Swashbuckler Weapon training turns 18-20 critical threat ranges into 15-20... In fact, 16-20 is the one threat range that is impossible to get without Out For Blood.What are your thoughts on the different dares? I'm fond of Frantically Nimble, and the success condition synergizes with opportune parry nicely.Out for Blood is about the only way to get a weapon with a 15-20 Threat Range.
(Swashbuckler Weapon training on say a Rapier making the weapon 16-20 Critical threat chance. Out for Blood increases the range by one, and thus meaning a 25% to crit with each attack).
Since you have a full BAB and the Parry/Riposte combo you can be more confident that you'll get your panache back on a crit. Good times.
Actually... No. Out for Blood specifically says it doesn't stack with Improved Critical and similar effects.
sorry for both:
out for blood DOESN'T STACK with imp critical.so it is either 15-20 with imp critical or 17-20 with out for blood
Out for Blood (Ex)
While this dare is active, your critical threat range with firearms (for gunslingers) or light or one-handed piercing melee weapons (for swashbucklers) increases by 1 (20/x4 becomes 19–20/x4, 19–20/x2 becomes 18–20/x2, and so on). This effect does not stack with similar effects that modify a weapon's critical threat range.
That's what I said! :)
Except that for a moment I thought the widest base critical threat range 17-20, took me a second to remember ti's actually 18-20.
Updated to include some info about Dares! I probably missed them because they're only on the Gunslinger page on the SRD. That said, I don't have to feel too bad about it, they're pretty subpar choices... But hey, comprehensiveness, right?
@Jorshamo: Unless I'm mistaken, Opportune Parry won't be available when you're relying on Frantically Nimble. Even with Signature Deed, you'd need to have at least 1 Panache to use OP&R. Although, it might be useful with Plumes of Panache, which seem to not technically give you Panache, but substitute it in place of yours for a Deed...
For fliers, deification obedience for pharasma is great! Pray over some bones, get +2 to hit with dagger (stacks with weapon focus). Just sayin....
Damn iPad spell check. Deific obedience.
There's nothing preventing you from using Precise Strike against a target with concealment. The description of Sneak Attack specifically says you can't sneak attack a target with concealment, but there is no general rule that says concealment prevents precision damage.
Your GM may rule that concealment stops Precise Strike, but that would be fiat territory, not RAW.
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You might be under-estimating the power of the Mouser archetype.
At least based on my reading, the Mouser Underfoot bonuses work any time you are in an enemy's square, not only when you use panache to step in.
You can step into the square of any enemy two sizes or more larger than yourself, at any time. Yes, you provoke by stepping into their square, but that's what acrobatics is for. So a Small swashbuckler can use this on any Large enemy, at any time. Of course, if you can Reduce Person from Small down to Tiny, this would even work on Medium-sized enemies.
I know a wild-shaping druid who enjoys turning into a Diminutive Bat as a combat form, and took a level of Swashbuckler just to get Underfoot!
Acrobatics wouldn't prevent the AoO from entering another creature's square, it only prevents AoOs for moving through threatened squares, which is different.
Actually, if you do it without acrobatics it should provoke twice (once for moving out of a threatened square, once for entering an occupied square) but one of those can be avoided with acrobatics.
The Flagbearer feat is probably worth a mention. You can still use a buckler in the offhand with it, and it gives you and all your buddies +1 to hit, damage, and saves vs. charm/fear effects. It's a slightly better version of Bless that's always active, and it *does* stack with inspire courage for everything except the save bonus.
Why do you rate Kitsune so badly? It takes a while but at level 3 you do not care for str anyway and at level 10 you get pounce. That sounds awesome.
First off, thanks for the guide. I am glad to see the new classes getting some love.
Secondly, what do you think about adding the Weretiger-Kin (Fanglord) to the list of Advanced/Uncommon Races?
They get a bonus to Dex and Chr (when shifted), low-light vision, a +2 bonus to Acrobatics and Perception, and SLA: Jump/1day (not much but there.)
When shifted they can choose from:
Bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage
2 claw attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage
+10-foot racial bonus to base speed
See in darkness
Guide updated! I actually did mention Flagbearer in the guide; it's good, but, well, you're not a Bard...
It's not that the Kitsune is bad, Helicon, it's just that other than their Ability Scores, they don't offer much for Swashbucklers. Agile is nice, though, so I think I will rate it Green, even if it's very much on the border.
Also, to clarify: I don't think the Mouser is an outright bad archetype at all, especially given the various Halfling "I murder things bigger than I am" feats. I wouldn't say it's an optimal choice, though, which is why it's orange(mostly only because it gives up Opportune Parry). I'd like to play it one day and see how it pans out.
Another question, as you have a SLA don´t you qualify for arcane strike?
As a Kitsune? Yes, you do - but your Caster Level for it never increases(Dancing Lights has no CL-dependent variables, so they just left that out), and Arcane Strike runs on CL to determine its bonus. You'd have to take the Light-Bringer trait or something to get a scaling Caster Level, RAW. A GM might let it slide, depending.
Kitsune can take one of the racial fox tail feats to give them access to scaling magic.
Also, a Kitsune swashbuckler with realistic likeness or/and fox form is pretty awesome and flavorful.
As far as weapons go, there are a few others that could be mentioned. A high critical threat range is not the end all and be all of weapon selection. A weapon like a rapier, scimitar, or katana crits 6 out of 20 times, or 30% of the time. A weapon like a longsword, falcata or bastard sword crits 4 out of 20 times, or 20% of the time. In terms of average damage, a falcata (x3 critical) or bastard sword (1d10 base) outperforms the rapier and scimitar. In a build where spending panache is less important, and therefore needing to replenish it isn't as great, these other weapons may be preferred.
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Guide updated! I actually did mention Flagbearer in the guide; it's good, but, well, you're not a Bard...
You should change all of the Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot feats to Red* - they only work with ranged weapons (and daggers are melee weapons that can be thrown, not ranged weapons). Unless, of course, a DM wants to alter RAW on those feats to include melee weapons that can be used at range.
You should change all of the Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot feats to Red* - they only work with ranged weapons (and daggers are melee weapons that can be thrown, not ranged weapons).
-As near as I can tell-, thrown weapons are effectively ranged weapons. The javelin, for instance, is a weapon you throw, not shoot or sling, and it's listed under ranged weapons. Then, there's this paragraph:
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
So, the ranged category should include thrown weapons. I'm not sure if this is the official stance, but I've yet to encounter a different ruling.
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You should change all of the Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot feats to Red* - they only work with ranged weapons (and daggers are melee weapons that can be thrown, not ranged weapons).-As near as I can tell-, thrown weapons are effectively ranged weapons. The javelin, for instance, is a weapon you throw, not shoot or sling, and it's listed under ranged weapons. Then, there's this paragraph:
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).So, the ranged category should include thrown weapons. I'm not sure if this is the official stance, but I've yet to encounter a different ruling.
I totally agree that they SHOULD be counted as ranged weapons...but sadly, they're not (at least, in any place that I'VE found in the rules). The only way you can run them not as ranged weapons is by a DM using his own house rule. I would love it if they would put out some sort of FAQ to correct this, since thrown dagger and thrown axe wielders get shorted so much due to this. Until they do (or at least if they put a feat or a trait out that allows thrown melee weapons to be treated as thrown ranged weapons), that's RAW.
You can always put a '*' in the guide to say something like, "...Depending on if your DM wants to let these feats apply to thrown melee weapons, rather than thrown ranged weapons..." Or something along those lines.
Otherwise...Good job on the guide!
(I'm currently agonizing over a 'Flying Blade' build)
I totally agree that they SHOULD be counted as ranged weapons...but sadly, they're not (at least, in any place that I'VE found in the rules). The only way you can run them not as ranged weapons is by a DM using his own house rule. I would love it if they would put out some sort of FAQ to correct this, since thrown dagger and thrown axe wielders get shorted so much due to this. Until they do (or at least if they put a feat or a trait out that allows thrown melee weapons to be treated as thrown ranged weapons), that's RAW.
The quotation provided earlier (from the Pathfinder SRD) states ranged weapons "includes both thrown and projectile weapons". You've provided nothing to contradict this except your own insistence that this isn't the case. If you have some kind of FAQ ruling, developer's commentary, or another quotation of your own to support your claim, please produce it; else wise, said claim is neither RAW or RAI.
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For the original poster: some things I want to call out...
(1) In your guide, you mark rhoka, urumi, katana, and wakizashi as all **** weapons, whereas cutlass, scimitar, and rapier are only *** weapons. Why do you value these weapons more? They're all exotics - any non-tengu swashbuckler who wants to use them will need to waste a feat to get proficiency first. (If you tell me half-elf doesn't waste a feat for this, you'd be incorrect, because they needing to chose this over a pseudo-Iron Will effect that stacks with the real Iron Will.) The only advantage katana has over scimitar is +1 to average damage per swing and the Deadly ability; not exactly bang for your buck when it comes to feat usage. If anything, cutlass/scimitar/rapier should be the **** weapons, and katana/urumi/rhoka only *** (if that). Note that even if your group doesn't allow Fencing Grace yet, you can still get the Agile enchantment on rapiers, so you won't be falling behind scimitar users at the higher levels.
(2) Given that developer commentary confirms that Slashing Grace doesn't currently apply to light weapons, I wouldn't up the rank of light weapons with the presumption that this is the case (especially the wakizashi, which is another exotic weapon by the way, making it an inferior option to the kukri). Again, however, you can still apply the Agile enchantment to these weapons, meaning they can be viable options at the higher levels.
(3) I would consider aldori dueling sword and longsword for *** status simply because of the sword scion trait. They may not be high crit weapons like the rapier, but they both qualify for Slashing Grace, don't require exotic weapon proficiency for use (one-handed or otherwise), and (with the above trait) can ensure a higher attack bonus than any other weapon available (especially good for parry and riposte).
(4) Why is Power Attack only ** whereas Piranha Strike is a full ****? Both feats provide the exact same bonus and penalty; the only difference is that piranha strike only applies to light weapons and doesn't halve its benefit to weapons held in the off-hand. Anyone who doesn't invest in two-weapon fighting will find power attack more useful - you can Power Attack with a light weapon in your main hand just fine, as the bonus will be no less than with Piranha Strike. If you want to rank Power Attack down because it requires strength 13, I would cite that, not the penalty to attacks (which Piranha Strike also has, in the exact same amount).
(Obviously, it's your guide, to do with as you will, but that's my two cents.)
(3) I would consider aldori dueling sword and longsword for *** status simply because of the sword scion trait. They may not be high crit weapons like the rapier, but they both qualify for Slashing Grace, don't require exotic weapon proficiency for use (one-handed or otherwise), and (with the above trait) can ensure a higher attack bonus than any other weapon available (especially good for parry and riposte).
Sword Scion is a campaign trait for Kingmaker, it's not generally available.
Sword Scion is a campaign trait for Kingmaker, it's not generally available.
I would agree with you that it's a campaign trait for Kingmaker; that it's not generally available, I would have to disagree. The campaign trait restriction is something I frequently see flouted on these boards, whether it be characters with both traits already spoken for (neither being campaign traits), or a character with the Optimistic Gambler trait outside of the Second Darkness adventure path (less common these days due to the advent of Community-Minded).
I personally prefer to abide by the campaign trait restriction in my games (and I always leave one trait unselected on my builds for this reason). However, for those playing swashbucklers in a more permissive environment (or in Kingmaker), it would be remiss not to take Sword Scion into account.
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I totally agree that they SHOULD be counted as ranged weapons...but sadly, they're not (at least, in any place that I'VE found in the rules)...The quotation provided earlier (from the Pathfinder SRD) states ranged weapons "includes both thrown and projectile weapons". You've provided nothing to contradict this except your own insistence that this isn't the case. If you have some kind of FAQ ruling, developer's commentary, or another quotation of your own to support your claim, please produce it; else wise, said claim is neither RAW or RAI.
Yes, ranged weapons include projectile and thrown weapons. However, conversely, this does not mean all thrown weapons are ranged weapons (just as the quote "Feline pets include both black and white pets" doesn't mean all white pets are feline). The quote you referenced was only part of the rule. Ranged weapons can be projectile weapons (bows, crossbows, etc.), or thrown weapons (javalins, darts, etc.). However, daggers are melee weapons which can be thrown - hence, why they are listed on the melee weapon chart.
There is no FAQ I am using - I am simply looking at the existing rules. However, if you need a link to see the chart I am talking about...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons
The full quote addressing this...
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Daggers are in the melee category, but they can be thrown. Throwing them doesn't change the category of weapon.
This is the only place where it shows in Pathfinder rules what weapons are considered melee, and what weapons are considered ranged weapons. If you know of some place it lists that daggers are considered ranged weapons, please...show me the link. I would love it to be the case. I haven't seen anywhere a rule saying 'all attacks used at range are considered ranged weapons'. In fact, there was some debate in numerous threads on the Rules forum about whether ray spells can benefit from precise shot (but that's a different animal, since ray spells are described as being able to benefit from those feats, and treated as ranged weapons).
Most DMs (me included) don't usually worry about this particular rule. However, I've seen two DMs make an issue of it in PFS - in one case, during a particularly difficult combat ("Yeah, classy. Way to pull this ruling out of the woodwork NOW."). While it may be a rule not many people follow - in fact, most people don't worry about - it's still technically correct. That's why I thought I'd mention it for the guide - it might be worth mentioning.
Again, if you know of something I don't, please feel free to point it out. And, of course, feel free to ignore the issue as well - it was merely a suggestion.
Daggers are in the melee category, but they can be thrown. Throwing them doesn't change the category of weapon.
Is every use of the term "ranged weapon" supposed to refer to the exclusive ranged category in the weapons table, or might it merely refer to the weapon's method of employment?
Consider: the returning enchantment can only occur on "ranged weapons" (check the table). Yet, the skirmishing spear and the dagger of a thousand bites both have the returning enchantment on them despite being melee (category) weapons.
Consider: darts and javelins are ranged (category) weapons which can be used in melee. Presuming a character with Point Blank Shot and a natural reach of less than 30' uses either weapon in melee, should they be getting the +1 to attack and damage for doing so?
Now, I will say there's merit to your argument from a legalese standpoint, since there's at least one game developer who supports your reading. And, presuming my own interpretation is correct (i.e. "ranged weapons" doesn't always mean "ranged category weapons"), having the same term for two different things is sloppy (probably deserving of some errata). But I still feel my reading is a (if not "the") valid one.
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From Combat chapter:
Shooting or Throwing[i] into a Melee
If you shoot or [b]throw[b] a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.
If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.
[i]Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat, you don't take this penalty.
Pretty sure Precise Shot and the other ranged combat feats (Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot) apply to thrown weapons too.
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Is every use of the term "ranged weapon" supposed to refer to the exclusive ranged category in the weapons table, or might it merely refer to the weapon's method of employment?
I would assume the term 'Ranged Weapon' is what it is - a ranged weapon. Whether they are used in melee (such as smacking a guy over the head with your longbow) or not doesn't change whether they're melee or ranged weapons. I'm simply looking at what the rules call them. That's why they didn't list all of the simple weapons on one chart - each weapon is a specific kind of weapon. It's not a flavor descriptor that has little meaning.
Consider: the returning enchantment can only occur on "ranged weapons" (check the table). Yet, the skirmishing spear and the dagger of a thousand bites both have the returning enchantment on them despite being melee (category) weapons.
Named weapons that are already designed already have their costs built into them. I have also seen numerous examples of named items where they don't follow the rules of the 'build-your-own' item enhancement rules. This being said, this doesn't change the types of weapons into ranged weapons - specific rules overrides general. The general rule of not applying those enhancements to melee weapons is overridden by the rules of the specific items. They are simply melee weapons with ranged weapon enhancements on them.
Consider: darts and javelins are ranged (category) weapons which can be used in melee. Presuming a character with Point Blank Shot and a natural reach of less than 30' uses either weapon in melee, should they be getting the +1 to attack and damage for doing so?
See my bow example above. Also, where are you getting darts being usable in melee? I guess in the same way arrows can - they're both consided ammo, so I suppose you'd follow the improvised weapon rules. Javalins also are not designed as melee weapons (as the description says, that's why you're at -4 to hit with them in melee - the same as an improvised weapon). Again, this doesn't turn ranged weapons into melee weapons. I'm not really sure what your point is with this one.
In fact, thinking of the magical item sections, I'm seeing more issues against your interpretation. On SOME general weapon enhancements, it says that you can only put them on 'melee' weapons or 'ranged' weapons. Therefore, if you use your argument that this definition is only in regards to how it operates, not what kind of weapon it is, then you could put the 'transformative' enhancement on any weapon...since you could always use the improvised weapon rule to wield any weapon in meleee combat. Why would it specifically call out as only being usable on melee weapons? Because that's how it's limited. You can't put it on a crossbow.
Now, I will say there's merit to your argument from a legalese standpoint, since there's at least one game developer who supports your reading. And, presuming my own interpretation is correct (i.e. "ranged weapons" doesn't always mean "ranged category weapons"), having the same term for two different things is sloppy (probably deserving of some errata). But I still feel my reading is a (if not "the") valid one.
Hey, you're more than welcome to use RAI in your game - I certainly prefer to use that when I am DMing (I think it's silly not to apply Precise Shot with a thrown dagger). However, 'legalese'-wise, I don't see anything saying daggers are ranged weapons. When it comes to these guides, I usually prefer to see suggestions working within the existing rules. That's why I suggested mentioning it.