Slashing Grace + Monowhip


Rules Questions


Would the slashing grace feat from the advanced class guide, work with the

MONOWHIP:

Price 70,000 gp; Type light melee; Proficiency exotic (whip); Dmg (M) 2d6 slash.; Dmg (S) 1d10 slash.;Critical 18-20/×3; Capacity 10; Usage 1 charge/round; Special performance, reach, touch; Weight 1 lb.

A monowhip is a deadly melee weapon capable of inflicting horrible wounds, even in the hands of the weak. An inactive monowhip looks like a short metal baton, but when it's activated, a small weight detaches, revealing a 15-foot-long monofilament length. Wielded like a whip, a monowhip slices deeply into targets and can inflict grievous critical hits with shocking ease. Attacks made with a monowhip resolve as touch attacks, and they ignore hardness as if the monofilament were made of adamantine. A monowhip's damage cannot be enhanced by strength, as the monofilament slices with equal ease regardless of the force applied. Activating a monowhip is a move action; once activated, the whip consumes power incredibly quickly, at the rate of 1 charge per round.

I am trying to build a whip master swashbuckler. Also would I get the dex to damage on the monowhip from slashing grace.


wintersrage wrote:

Would the slashing grace feat from the advanced class guide, work with the ** spoiler omitted ** I am trying to build a whip master swashbuckler. Also would I get the dex to damage on the monowhip from slashing grace.

I would say no on the dex to damage, since you can't apply str to damage. If this is a PFS character, the monowhip isn't a legal item anyways.


This will be in the numeria modules.

Sczarni

Unfortunately, the fact that a Monowhip is specifically a light weapon is what excludes it from benefiting from Slashing Grace.


Why don't you you just put the Agile property on it? Its pretty cheep and you save a feat.


Nitro-13 wrote:
Why don't you you just put the Agile property on it? Its pretty cheep and you save a feat.

Presumably because you won't get your hands on a Monowhip for 10 levels or so, and it's rapid charge expenditure mean you'll still be using a mundane whip rather frequently.


Nitro-13 wrote:
Why don't you you just put the Agile property on it? Its pretty cheep and you save a feat.

probably because it wouldn't work.

Agile replaces strength, but as you can't add str to the monowhip damage there is nothing to replace.

So slashing grace with a monowhip fails on two counts.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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If you can finagle a way to gain Dex to damage with a monowhip, then yes indeed you can apply that modifier to your monowhip. The monowhip only prevents Strength from modifying damage... which makes it more or less a great weapon for a character who has a Strength penalty. If you can get another ability score to adjust damage to the weapon, it works fine that way.

Slashing Grace not counting for light weapons is, I can only hope, an error that will be eventually cleared up in an errata... although that's not my call, alas. My assumption is that this text was initially meant to say something like "choose any one-handed or smaller slashing weapon," since there are no flavor reasons to prevent swashbucklers from using light slashing weapons, and since light weapons do less damage than one-handed ones I can't think of a game balance reason to limit it as well. But again... not my call. FAQ the question though, and maybe it'll get fixed!!!

The agile weapon quality would work fine on a monowhip, in any event.


Im going to have 2 levels of tech slinger as well with covet charge, and my dm is considering activating a tech weapon to count. So using a monowhip will use no charges for the full round of attacks for 1 grit/panache. At 11th level im getting signiture dead.


Any thoughts on the Monowhip qualifying as a Whip for feats/abilities? This weapon intrigues me a great deal. The tapped-together glasses Power Gamer(tm) in me wants to build a tech savvy worshiper of Callistria that Crusader's Flurrys with these.


James Jacobs wrote:

If you can finagle a way to gain Dex to damage with a monowhip, then yes indeed you can apply that modifier to your monowhip. The monowhip only prevents Strength from modifying damage... which makes it more or less a great weapon for a character who has a Strength penalty. If you can get another ability score to adjust damage to the weapon, it works fine that way.

Slashing Grace not counting for light weapons is, I can only hope, an error that will be eventually cleared up in an errata... although that's not my call, alas. My assumption is that this text was initially meant to say something like "choose any one-handed or smaller slashing weapon," since there are no flavor reasons to prevent swashbucklers from using light slashing weapons, and since light weapons do less damage than one-handed ones I can't think of a game balance reason to limit it as well. But again... not my call. FAQ the question though, and maybe it'll get fixed!!!

The agile weapon quality would work fine on a monowhip, in any event.

That's news to me. Can we get an official clarification/errata on this?

The Monowhip disallows strength from modifying damage.
The Agile weapon property lets you apply Dexterity to damage in place of strength
Ergo, if you cannot apply strength to damage, you cannot replace adding strength to damage with dexterity because there is nothing to replace.

At least that's how the vast majority of people have assumed it works per the RAW in all such cases.

Sovereign Court

Aldarionn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

If you can finagle a way to gain Dex to damage with a monowhip, then yes indeed you can apply that modifier to your monowhip. The monowhip only prevents Strength from modifying damage... which makes it more or less a great weapon for a character who has a Strength penalty. If you can get another ability score to adjust damage to the weapon, it works fine that way.

Slashing Grace not counting for light weapons is, I can only hope, an error that will be eventually cleared up in an errata... although that's not my call, alas. My assumption is that this text was initially meant to say something like "choose any one-handed or smaller slashing weapon," since there are no flavor reasons to prevent swashbucklers from using light slashing weapons, and since light weapons do less damage than one-handed ones I can't think of a game balance reason to limit it as well. But again... not my call. FAQ the question though, and maybe it'll get fixed!!!

The agile weapon quality would work fine on a monowhip, in any event.

That's news to me. Can we get an official clarification/errata on this?

The Monowhip disallows strength from modifying damage.
The Agile weapon property lets you apply Dexterity to damage in place of strength
Ergo, if you cannot apply strength to damage, you cannot replace adding strength to damage with dexterity because there is nothing to replace.

At least that's how the vast majority of people have assumed it works per the RAW in all such cases.

I'm all but certain it was done intentionally. Otherwise it'd be very easy to TWF & get your full dex damage to both weapons with no penalties. WAY too good for it's cost.

The only way to do it (well) now is to dip a level into swashbuckler and use saw-toothed sabres. (still extremely good - but not cheap)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Aldarionn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

If you can finagle a way to gain Dex to damage with a monowhip, then yes indeed you can apply that modifier to your monowhip. The monowhip only prevents Strength from modifying damage... which makes it more or less a great weapon for a character who has a Strength penalty. If you can get another ability score to adjust damage to the weapon, it works fine that way.

Slashing Grace not counting for light weapons is, I can only hope, an error that will be eventually cleared up in an errata... although that's not my call, alas. My assumption is that this text was initially meant to say something like "choose any one-handed or smaller slashing weapon," since there are no flavor reasons to prevent swashbucklers from using light slashing weapons, and since light weapons do less damage than one-handed ones I can't think of a game balance reason to limit it as well. But again... not my call. FAQ the question though, and maybe it'll get fixed!!!

The agile weapon quality would work fine on a monowhip, in any event.

That's news to me. Can we get an official clarification/errata on this?

The Monowhip disallows strength from modifying damage.
The Agile weapon property lets you apply Dexterity to damage in place of strength
Ergo, if you cannot apply strength to damage, you cannot replace adding strength to damage with dexterity because there is nothing to replace.

At least that's how the vast majority of people have assumed it works per the RAW in all such cases.

I'm all but certain it was done intentionally. Otherwise it'd be very easy to TWF & get your full dex damage to both weapons with no penalties. WAY too good for it's cost.

The only way to do it (well) now is to dip a level into swashbuckler and use saw-toothed sabres. (still extremely good - but not cheap)

What book is the saw-toothed sabre in.


I am going to be using monowhip either way.


Sawtooth sabre can be found in Ultimate Equipment for sure.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Ser Clay wrote:
Any thoughts on the Monowhip qualifying as a Whip for feats/abilities? This weapon intrigues me a great deal. The tapped-together glasses Power Gamer(tm) in me wants to build a tech savvy worshiper of Callistria that Crusader's Flurrys with these.

It absolutely should.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aldarionn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

If you can finagle a way to gain Dex to damage with a monowhip, then yes indeed you can apply that modifier to your monowhip. The monowhip only prevents Strength from modifying damage... which makes it more or less a great weapon for a character who has a Strength penalty. If you can get another ability score to adjust damage to the weapon, it works fine that way.

Slashing Grace not counting for light weapons is, I can only hope, an error that will be eventually cleared up in an errata... although that's not my call, alas. My assumption is that this text was initially meant to say something like "choose any one-handed or smaller slashing weapon," since there are no flavor reasons to prevent swashbucklers from using light slashing weapons, and since light weapons do less damage than one-handed ones I can't think of a game balance reason to limit it as well. But again... not my call. FAQ the question though, and maybe it'll get fixed!!!

The agile weapon quality would work fine on a monowhip, in any event.

That's news to me. Can we get an official clarification/errata on this?

The Monowhip disallows strength from modifying damage.
The Agile weapon property lets you apply Dexterity to damage in place of strength
Ergo, if you cannot apply strength to damage, you cannot replace adding strength to damage with dexterity because there is nothing to replace.

At least that's how the vast majority of people have assumed it works per the RAW in all such cases.

For what it's worth, I invented the monowhip and the agile weapon property. I'd let Agile add Dex to the monowhip in my game, and that was absolutely the intent of the two to let them work.

The flavor is that no matter how hard you swing a monowhip, it won't do more damage because there's not really any mass to work with. It cuts where it cuts. But using Dexterity to aim better and to hit more accurately WOULD make a difference.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

And frankly, I'm kinda paranoid that the monowhip is TOO expensive. It sounds like folks don't think it is, which is nice. ;P


It kinda is a bit pricey but I haven't gotten a good feel for the new tech stuff yet. It's not going to be an item in pfs that you'll see much that's for sure.

You are getting basically a admantine impact, brilliant energy whip, and that should be somewhat expensive.


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James Jacobs wrote:
And frankly, I'm kinda paranoid that the monowhip is TOO expensive. It sounds like folks don't think it is, which is nice. ;P

It feels a little too pricey, yeah.


James Jacobs wrote:
And frankly, I'm kinda paranoid that the monowhip is TOO expensive. It sounds like folks don't think it is, which is nice. ;P

This way you can boast with your shiny Monowhip ;) It's like buying a Rolex :p

The Sawtooth Saber appears in : Inner Sea World Guide, Curse of the Crimson Crown and Adventurer's Armory as a light weapon and has been errated and modified in the Ultimate Equipment as a 1-Handed weapon with special entry that it can be used as a light weapon when you TWF with it.


Upon closer inspection this badboy actually is a whip. I should read the fine print, eh? It's pricy, and if you step outside PFS for a homebrew game/character you can throw Guided Weapon on it with a Warpriest of Calistria(any whip god I guesss. My initial impressions assuming making a Monk Weapon via Crusader's Flurry lets it be used with the Pummel Style Chain (looking at a 15-20 x3 threat range at this point.)

After the first Swift Action Ferver to Divine Power yourself(around +5/+5 with an extra attack if you have the trait that boosts your luck bonus') you can start throwing out some Impressive (6d6+ save for half) Negative Energy bombs with your touch whip. Plus ki points and other stuff.

It's just so damn cost prohibitive. You need to be able to make the thing yourself to get any action out of it for the 'sweet spot' levels. I'm very interested in what others have to build on/add to this discussion. It's essentially adamantium also.

Pack some Wands of Recharge or work in a few levels of the prestigue class that lets you power tech by converting uncast spells. Did I mention I really like this item? :D


If I have time tomorrow I'll see how the Flurry Touch Channel Smite build compares against a Daring Champion build who uses the Slashing Grace we're all hoping we get. Order of the Flame on a tech savvy Goblin Darring Champ. Giggle snort giggle.


Also qualifies as a 1 hand slasher for the Blackblade/Kensai Archtype mix too eh? Free monowhips for all the KenCybermagi! ^______^

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Speaking of whips JJ, do you think a Scorpion Whip should be able to deal nonlethal, without penalty?

I know you say you are not a "rules guy", but I am just curious.


James Jacobs wrote:
And frankly, I'm kinda paranoid that the monowhip is TOO expensive. It sounds like folks don't think it is, which is nice. ;P

I think a lot of the tech stuff is overpriced unless I am missing something. I understand the rarity, and that may be part of it, but I don't see myself paying ten of thousands of gp for them, and I am assuming the big 6 are already accounted for.

Thanks for the insight about agile interacting with the whip as being your intent.

I also hope slashing grace gets errata'd to work with light weapons. I just want it to have a clause saying that light weapons in the off hand still only does half dex damage.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Speaking of whips JJ, do you think a Scorpion Whip should be able to deal nonlethal, without penalty?

I know you say you are not a "rules guy", but I am just curious.

Quote:
Benefit: It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.

Is there a reason why you thought there would be a penalty assigned? I am asking because I was thinking of making a whip based character, but I want to be sure I did not miss anything.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Speaking of whips JJ, do you think a Scorpion Whip should be able to deal nonlethal, without penalty?

I know you say you are not a "rules guy", but I am just curious.

Quote:
Benefit: It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
Is there a reason why you thought there would be a penalty assigned? I am asking because I was thinking of making a whip based character, but I want to be sure I did not miss anything.

Same.

The Scorpion Whip is just so confusing, and I want to use one in PFS, so it's good to be clear how it works.


There is nothing in the rules about penalties so the GM can't assign penalties without rules to back it up. :)

PS: I am assuming neither of us have gone blind and missed anything in the whip description. :)

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

There is nothing in the rules about penalties so the GM can't assign penalties without rules to back it up. :)

PS: I am assuming neither of us have gone blind and missed anything in the whip description. :)

Well, it's not so much the Whip description, but the Scorpion Whip description.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

There is nothing in the rules about penalties so the GM can't assign penalties without rules to back it up. :)

PS: I am assuming neither of us have gone blind and missed anything in the whip description. :)

Well, it's not so much the Whip description, but the Scorpion Whip description.

I am not seeing any penalties there either that anyone could apply in PFS.


so as it stands i will be going 1 level tech-slinger for the deed

Covet Charge (Ex):
At 1st level, a techslinger can spend 1 grit point to use 1 charge fewer than normal when firing a technological weapon (minimum 0), as long as the weapon has enough charges remaining to be fired at least once. This deed replaces deadeye.
He will be counting the monowhip as a ranged weapon for this class ability and activating the whip as firing it, and with signature dead Covet Charge will actually cost me 0 grit at level 11. My DM is allowing slashing grace to work with monowhip

Then i will be going swashbuckler all the way. i will be taking deadly aim as my dm said he will be considering the monowhip a ranged weapon, but deadly aim will count as power attack for feat prereq's. My

Feats:

1 Exotic weapon Prof Whip
3 Power Attack
5 Weapon Focus Whip
5 Slashing Grace Whip
7 Two Weapon Fighting
9 Imprived Two Weapon Fighting
9 Weapon Spec Whip
11 Whip Mastery
13 Greater Weapon Focus Whip
13 Greater Weapon Spec Whip
15 Improved Whip Mastery
17 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
17 Greater Whip Mastery
19

I am not sure what to get for my level 19th feat, and the order of the feats is not set in stone so if you think of a better set up of feats for me that would be great.


wraithstrike wrote:
I am not seeing any penalties there either that anyone could apply in PFS.

In Adventurer's Armory the Scorpion Whip does Lethal Damage, to do non lethal damage with a lethal weapon you take a -4 penalty if I remember well...


When it says, "wielded like a whip", would that translate to "even though it's a light weapon as far as item properties go, when wielding it, it's treated as a whip (a one-handed, finesseable slashing weapon)"? As such, could you use that virtual item category to qualify it for Slashing Grace? As a point of reference, would a character with Jotungip or another "wield a 2-h weapon in one hand" ability be able to wield a 2-h slashing weapon as a 1-h weapon and still qualify for Slashing Grace?


Kazaan wrote:
When it says, "wielded like a whip", would that translate to "even though it's a light weapon as far as item properties go, when wielding it, it's treated as a whip (a one-handed, finesseable slashing weapon)"? As such, could you use that virtual item category to qualify it for Slashing Grace?

I think it would count as a virtual item category as it says it is just a whip and all whip like weapons are 1 handed other then the monowhip.


bump

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Speaking of whips JJ, do you think a Scorpion Whip should be able to deal nonlethal, without penalty?

I know you say you are not a "rules guy", but I am just curious.

Nope. It like all weapons that deal lethal damage should have the standard penalty for using it against its design to deal nonlethal damage.

But I also think that the whip itself is way too underpowered and should deal lethal damage and shouldn't have those lame armor restrictions. Keep it to 1d3 or 1d4 damage and that's more than enough balance for having had to spend a feat to gain the advantages.


James Jacobs wrote:

[Nope. It like all weapons that deal lethal damage should have the standard penalty for using it against its design to deal nonlethal damage.

But I also think that the whip itself is way too underpowered and should deal lethal damage and shouldn't have those lame armor restrictions. Keep it to 1d3 or 1d4 damage and that's more than enough balance for having had to spend a feat to gain the advantages.

Yep that's exactly how I rule it, a d3 weapon that doesn't threaten and provoke is far from being overpowered even if it can reach 15'... Taking a feat to not provoke AND a second feat to threaten 10' is not OP either...

Plus Whip are cool, moreso with a cool hat ;)

Grand Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Speaking of whips JJ, do you think a Scorpion Whip should be able to deal nonlethal, without penalty?

I know you say you are not a "rules guy", but I am just curious.

Nope. It like all weapons that deal lethal damage should have the standard penalty for using it against its design to deal nonlethal damage.

But I also think that the whip itself is way too underpowered and should deal lethal damage and shouldn't have those lame armor restrictions. Keep it to 1d3 or 1d4 damage and that's more than enough balance for having had to spend a feat to gain the advantages.

Thanks.

It's good to have different opinions on things like this.


wintersrage wrote:

so as it stands i will be going 1 level tech-slinger for the deed ** spoiler omitted ** He will be counting the monowhip as a ranged weapon for this class ability and activating the whip as firing it, and with signature dead Covet Charge will actually cost me 0 grit at level 11. My DM is allowing slashing grace to work with monowhip

Then i will be going swashbuckler all the way. i will be taking deadly aim as my dm said he will be considering the monowhip a ranged weapon, but deadly aim will count as power attack for feat prereq's. My ** spoiler omitted **

I am not sure what to get for my level 19th feat, and the order of the feats is not set in stone so if you think of a better set up of feats for me that would be great.

Isn't there a feat that functions LIKE power attack but with dex already? Or did I dream this? I think it might have had prereq's such as Weapon Finesse or something...hmm


Ser Clay wrote:
wintersrage wrote:

so as it stands i will be going 1 level tech-slinger for the deed ** spoiler omitted ** He will be counting the monowhip as a ranged weapon for this class ability and activating the whip as firing it, and with signature dead Covet Charge will actually cost me 0 grit at level 11. My DM is allowing slashing grace to work with monowhip

Then i will be going swashbuckler all the way. i will be taking deadly aim as my dm said he will be considering the monowhip a ranged weapon, but deadly aim will count as power attack for feat prereq's. My ** spoiler omitted **

I am not sure what to get for my level 19th feat, and the order of the feats is not set in stone so if you think of a better set up of feats for me that would be great.

Isn't there a feat that functions LIKE power attack but with dex already? Or did I dream this? I think it might have had prereq's such as Weapon Finesse or something...hmm

any idea what the feat is called all i can see is deadly aim.


The feat for dex power attack is Piranha strike

Grand Lodge

Loengrin wrote:
The feat for dex power attack is Piranha strike

Works with Light Weapons only.


Loengrin wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I am not seeing any penalties there either that anyone could apply in PFS.
In Adventurer's Armory the Scorpion Whip does Lethal Damage, to do non lethal damage with a lethal weapon you take a -4 penalty if I remember well...

It does lethal damage in the current version. I thought BBT was asking if there was a penalty for doing lethal damage.


James Jacobs wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Speaking of whips JJ, do you think a Scorpion Whip should be able to deal nonlethal, without penalty?

I know you say you are not a "rules guy", but I am just curious.

Nope. It like all weapons that deal lethal damage should have the standard penalty for using it against its design to deal nonlethal damage.

But I also think that the whip itself is way too underpowered and should deal lethal damage and shouldn't have those lame armor restrictions. Keep it to 1d3 or 1d4 damage and that's more than enough balance for having had to spend a feat to gain the advantages.

I completely misread his question.

Sorry BBT. Yeah you have to take the penalties for nonlethal damage.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Loengrin wrote:
The feat for dex power attack is Piranha strike
Works with Light Weapons only.

Glad my trusty Monowhip is Light


Ser Clay wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Loengrin wrote:
The feat for dex power attack is Piranha strike
Works with Light Weapons only.
Glad my trusty Monowhip is Light

My dm is allowing the tech-slinger ability Covet Charge (Ex): At 1st level, a techslinger can spend 1 grit point to use 1 charge fewer than normal when firing a technological weapon (minimum 0), as long as the weapon has enough charges remaining to be fired at least once. This deed replaces deadeye. to work with any tech weapon that uses a charge, and at 11 level signature deed being covet charge, so i will be able to use my monowhip with out using charges.

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