Goblin Squad Member
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Being able to wrap your brain around it is a function of how well the vision is articulated and how familiar you already are with the concept.
Your proposition seems incomplete to me. There is also the reader, the perceiver, the beholder involved.
Pearls aren't edible, so they aren't interesting to some.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I had your account, I would make sure the character had your name... and offer it back as soon as you wanted it.
The question would be, what would you want it to do...
Kill people and be a low rep killer?
Crafting superstar?
Stand in a mountain pass and say, None Shall Pass!!! ?
High rep raider?
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Please just make the game interesting.
Make the game fun. Make crafts deeper: specs within specs, more loot, more differential of weapon types, etc etc etc...
It sucks that dudes are already giving away their accounts... I am sour some days, as I have been for awhile, but I wanna see EE. I still have faith. Albeit not blind faith.
GIVE US HUNGER. Give us more and more reasons to play, little micro-managements. Every game has grind, but when it's not fun is when the problem arises.
We need a game where people can have "jobs." I dunno if any part is going to be complex enough to consider it a job... yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Give me your stuff Audocet! Seriously, I think your issue with the game is going to be fixed within the first couple months. If I were you I'd just cook characters for a bit, the "grind" aspect should be fixed very quickly, maybe even here in alpha. Don't go nowhere Audocet!
The PvP crowd looking to leave, man, please just keep an eye on the game. I don't know when the combat will get better but I really hope that's the emphasis right now.
I am satisfied with the basic state of most things but that clunky combat, yeah, it's gonna scare some people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Out of curiosity, but I don't really expect to get an answer, how many individual clients are actually in alpha?
I don't think there is even 500. Now that the map has been blown out to its full EE size, I suspect not seeing anyone in the wilderness for many, many hexes.
Now with the scaling back on the possibility of solo play, what is the impact of low server population (inability to form many, small groups) and the player economy?
With group drops being turned off and the fact that for achievements, only the killing blow matters, even if you can find a large group there is a disincentive to joining it.
I have said it before, and I really mean for it to be constructive. PFO has too many contradictory systems / goals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Running all over creation to grab materials in order to craft, I found that I not even *once* found another player out in the wilderness, and only found a few players in a settlement at a time. I hope that once the game gets to EE, we have a lot more players. But, if we have 3,000 players live at any one time, and we focus the players only in the player settlement hexes and the Alpha Six around them, that's about 13 people per hex. If we expand it out to the ring around that....its less than 5 per hex.
My guess is, for the foreseeable future, we won't be seeing all that many people in the world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am exited about the new map and proto-settlements being in, but the game sure needs more people now.
Every player in a group should get kills for their achievements, no matter if they idle in a corner: as long as GW makes true on their promise that only paying characters can log into the game, this should not be a problem at all. If people want to help their newbie friends, or an Alt this way, fine.
I would prefer Guildwars 2 loot mechanics but I can see how this could flood the economy with too many resources, since a group of 6 would multiply the loot x6 compared to someone who is soloing: so hard to balance unless you nerf solo-loot hardcore. But there could be some kind of algorithm here.
Animation locks need to go, I should be able to go fluently from bow to shield, or from using a Utility to my standard bow-attacks without having to go through 3 different animations first before I start doing damage again. (including the message "You are out of Range" even though I already have my bow in hand).
Work in Progress, I am sure. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't even seen another person in the times I've been standing around in Ozem's Vigil. Now it's possible that's because every single hex for a couple in any direction is full of 100% Rasmiran Priests, bishops and others, mostly in groups of three to five yellows and reds.
In two hours of wandering last night there were a total of five groups I thought I could have a chance with and I died three times.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't even seen another person in the times I've been standing around in Ozem's Vigil. Now it's possible that's because every single hex for a couple in any direction is full of 100% Rasmiran Priests, bishops and others, mostly in groups of three to five yellows and reds.
In two hours of wandering last night there were a total of five groups I thought I could have a chance with and I died three times.
GW needs to do a bit of work on Escalations. With as small population assume PFO has, they may need to rework the numbers for escalations.
Suggestions:
1. Every encampment of mobs in an escalation hex, has escalation mission objectives. Far too much time is spent trying to find the "white boxes".
2. There needs to be participation rewards to encourage players to complete some of an escalation cycle. Not everyone has the numbers nor the hours it takes to complete an escalation and in the current system they get nothing for partial credit.
3. Escalation mobs should drop items, recipes, etc that are unique to escalation mobs. This could be the answer for item # 2.
4. Perhaps escalation mobs could count for 1.25 kills for the purpose of kill achievements. Again, further encouragement for players to at least work towards reducing these escalations.
^ The only issue is reward. That and maybe it's impossible to take out one with high numbers when you only have 2 people.
Escalations to me are just not that interesting. They sound interesting in concept.
You only need two people tho... I had my trusty bowfriend and myself, this time on my cleric. Got heavy armor, got self heals, got a protection spell... I go in, aggro, let them hit me, run around or away when I take too much damage. Then we repeat.
But you kill some enemies and it's like... wow this escalation lost... 1%! haha. It's just like you want to puke. I want giant rewards for getting the escalation down to certain numbers (only once obviously, but if you take 50 off from 100, you should get a reward. then a really amazing one when you clear. You should get like ESCALATION CLEAR and it should give you many achievement points in various things, relating to how strong it was.)
Otherwise, they are gonna be an issue... but an annoyance and dude to player laziness I bet they just grow and people move around them, or trim them back when necessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want giant rewards for getting the escalation down to certain numbers (only once obviously, but if you take 50 off from 100, you should get a reward. then a really amazing one when you clear.
The incentive then would be for a group to run through many hexes, knocking their escalations down to 49%, getting whatever rewards are available, and then leaving. The escalation would run its way back up to 100%, but the initial rewards would already have been claimed, leaving nothing for those who follow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Part of the challenge we have in EE is that the escalations seem to outpace player power if players don't keep working as a groups. Once a escalation spreads into adjacent hexes, the adjacent hexes will bolster each other - it will take multiple parties to cut it down. Escalations are PvE raid-level content, imo.
I think GW could make escalations matter from the other direction. Use the escalation % as a deduction from outposts/bulk harvest, so if you have a 25% escalation, outpost production is cut to 75%.
Do a similar thing for War of the Towers. Use the escalation as a deduction to skill when gathering from nodes. If those escalations start gnawing at settlements' bottom line, settlements will have to deal with them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We had no problem killing escalation points, we had problems finding them... As in they didnt spawn quickly enough, or they just werent spawned properly. If I have to kill 7 camps of Priests, I expect to find all 7 camps without running in circles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want giant rewards for getting the escalation down to certain numbers (only once obviously, but if you take 50 off from 100, you should get a reward. then a really amazing one when you clear.The incentive then would be for a group to run through many hexes, knocking their escalations down to 49%, getting whatever rewards are available, and then leaving. The escalation would run its way back up to 100%, but the initial rewards would already have been claimed, leaving nothing for those who follow.
This would be fine if the escalation cycle was not so demanding of time and if kills of mobs also reduced an escalation.
One time Pino (TEO), two there and I were running an escalation (during alpha 6). The escalation was at around 26%. We had spent the better part of two hours and killed over 190 Ogres and all we brought the escalation down to was about 20%. That does not include the hundreds of Goblins we killed.
We eventually gave up, and logged off empty handed.
As Xeen mentioned above, we had run an escalation the other night. Killed hundreds of bandits, and nothing in return.
Not to mention that every encampment requires exactly the same tactic and with a group of three they were fairly easy.
Escalations are mi d numbingly boring and an unproductive use of time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought Escalations were supposed to be mass group activities to deal with effectively?
The old, going out into the wilds in a small party adventuring = butchering massed ranks of mobs seems like an outmoded game system to me.
I was hoping Escalations are major disruption events to players groups logistical operations?
Specializing in killing unique critters seems more like adventure content to me? Ie finding, beating them. More of a pokemon skill-training activity: Gotta kill 'em all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One time Pino (TEO), two there and I were running an escalation (during alpha 6). The escalation was at around 26%. We had spent the better part of two hours and killed over 190 Ogres and all we brought the escalation down to was about 20%. That does not include the hundreds of Goblins we killed.
We eventually gave up, and logged off empty handed.
As Xeen mentioned above, we had run an escalation the other night. Killed hundreds of bandits, and nothing in return.
Not to mention that every encampment requires exactly the same tactic and with a group of three they were fairly easy.
Escalations are mi d numbingly boring and an unproductive use of time.
I think it's interesting that you're using a small party killing lots of mobs, just as if you're running around in a non-escalation hex, and don't seem to be clearing escalations though you say it's easy.
Maybe we need to use multiple parties. Maybe we even need to use multiple parties in adjacent hexes when an escalation has spread across a number of hexes. I think it's an interesting puzzle (for now) and look forward to the solutions players come up with to solve the problem.
Remember: Even Aragon is a lot smaller than it needs to be by the end of Early Enrollment. Even if settlement warfare is graded "on a curve", the rest of the game ain't, and everyone may well have a tough time with these escalations until their numbers start to go up.
Consider it encouragement to make nice with your allies for a while, eh?
Which is great is you were looking for a more faithful conversion from PnP to MMO. PFO is not and has never intended to be that game.
Which would be a good point if the conversion itself was the reason for including stuff like "swing and hit" without requiring a targeting system. Pyronous was more pointing out, "DDO did this right, PFO should, too." PFO isn't being distinct from PnP just on principle, it's mimicking what works and ditching what doesn't.
I've got no horse in this race—I had a slurk, but it got disqualified for eating some guy's dog, and the guy, and also five other people—but I think you're mischaracterizing his argument.
I do hope burst spells and such get altered so they can be centered on areas, though, not targets. Kinda like how GW2 does it—you select the attack, then mouse over and a bullseye follows your mouse to show you where the burst will hit. Then you simply click the area you want to hit.
Seriously, burst spells are crucial for a fantasy formation-heavy game. Pathfinder offers such opportunity for kickass burst spells—entangle! Web! Cloudkill! Wall of Force! Obscuring Mist! I really hope Goblinworks puts more effort into these later on. Tab targeting is totally terrible for burst effects.
Being able to wrap your brain around it is a function of how well the vision is articulated and how familiar you already are with the concept.Your proposition seems incomplete to me. There is also the reader, the perceiver, the beholder involved.
Okay, we just went over why PFO isn't gonna rip off DDO, dude. Don't you know Hasbro has all words for "one who looks" copyrighted?
I want giant rewards for getting the escalation down to certain numbers (only once obviously, but if you take 50 off from 100, you should get a reward. then a really amazing one when you clear.The incentive then would be for a group to run through many hexes, knocking their escalations down to 49%, getting whatever rewards are available, and then leaving. The escalation would run its way back up to 100%, but the initial rewards would already have been claimed, leaving nothing for those who follow.
I dunno, because if you get a better reward at 25 and 0, that would be a bad idea. I would imagine it resetting if it ever made its way back to 100, too.
I bet it's much harder to go from 100 to 50 than it is to go from 50 to 0. At least from what I've seen.
It's only an example saying that you should be rewarded for beating it back. Then, if you get an escalation down to 50, more people would be gathering in hope to be there for the rewards.
That would be an issue. Letting an escalation get to 100 so you could take it down would also be an issue. I'm not saying this should be put in the game without thought, but I am saying that something similar should be put in
Seems like the only meaningful pve atm is escalations, so let's reward people for it.
I mean, obviously, I won't go into my wants and wishes for environment, but if that's what it is... then make it worth it. Also could make it so that once an escalation got to 100% it spawned some kind of boss monsters every x amount of time and they would start leading groups of baddies + the boss across a larger area.
Just inventive stuff and rewards. THAT'S WHAT WE NEED.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I bet it's much harder to go from 100 to 50 than it is to go from 50 to 0. At least from what I've seen.
From watching Adventure Time With Bonny and other streams, I thought it was a bit harder for the end of the cleanup, as the monsters were further apart and had to be sought before hunting, rather than just "can't avoid tripping over them" at 100%. It'll take some searching--or more than some--to find the final boss-monster who appears at 0%, too.
I bet it's much harder to go from 100 to 50 than it is to go from 50 to 0. At least from what I've seen.From watching Adventure Time With Bonny and other streams, I thought it was a bit harder for the end of the cleanup, as the monsters were further apart and had to be sought before hunting, rather than just "can't avoid tripping over them" at 100%. It'll take some searching--or more than some--to find the final boss-monster who appears at 0%, too.
ah I meant that more as a 100% thing, just a suggestion. Just something that would really start going haywire if left at 100, so that nobody would, in their right mind, do that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We had no problem killing escalation points, we had problems finding them... As in they didnt spawn quickly enough, or they just werent spawned properly. If I have to kill 7 camps of Priests, I expect to find all 7 camps without running in circles.
Maybe feat/utility to point to 3 nearest "flags". When one accepts the quest, there is a token that assists in ionizing the way.
It would be affected by Knowledge and roles (Divine for skeletons, Martial for the noble woman from the west, …). NOt sure if any of these feat/utiity would relate ti commoner (harvesting) or aristocrats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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^ The only issue is reward. That and maybe it's impossible to take out one with high numbers when you only have 2 people.
Escalations to me are just not that interesting. They sound interesting in concept.
Otherwise, they are gonna be an issue... but an annoyance and dude to player laziness I bet they just grow and people move around them, or trim them back when necessary.
+1
I agree that there is a real danger that escalations become more of an annoyance, and that clearing them(to stop them from wrecking your PoIs and hindering your gatherers) will become a daily chore instead of a fun rewarding feature.
I heard escalations gave more rewarda but I have killed quit a few red Priests and Scribes and such, cleared a few camps, clicked on some altars, stole some maps and burned them in holy fire but zero reward. I am currently better off massacring the gobbies outside of Ossian, I get a lot of Salvagable resources and recipes from that at least. Or kill Ogres (that are not in an escalation) for spells.
The mobs in escalations themselves are not that tough, so I think a good way to reward players is indeed to give rewards at certain percentages instead. Every 5% or so, and the rewards increase in value the lower it gets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Complaining about a 1-3 person groups ability to take on an escalation seems premature at best. Try it with 6-10 people and if it takes more then a few hours you may have a point.
The point was that we could not find escalation targets in the hex.
6-10 people will have the exact same problem. If the spawn time based on kills (which I am sure it is), 6-10 people will be running around much longer looking for a spawn.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Complaining about a 1-3 person groups ability to take on an escalation seems premature at best. Try it with 6-10 people and if it takes more then a few hours you may have a point.
Current server population does not support this. I doubt there are much more than 500 people in alpha. Of that number, most are in towns (crafting) or out gathering near towns. It is rare to find anyone else in an escalation cycle, unless they are just passing through.
Even with a large group of 20+, and being guided by GW Bonny, it took around two hours to complete an escalation. In that group almost everyone had T2 gear and Bonny was frequently in God Mode.
Escalations need to be tailored to smaller groups and a shorter time investment required. At the very least add more mission objectives on the map.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most likely the rate of escalation was as compressed as our xp accumulation was. Remember that during that period achievement requirements were suspended for the sake of what GW wanted to test. I seriously doubt we are well enough informed to project what escalations will look like just yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most likely the rate of escalation was as compressed as our xp accumulation was. Remember that during that period achievement requirements were suspended for the sake of what GW wanted to test. I seriously doubt we are well enough informed to project what escalations will look like just yet.
Achievements are not suspended now, and I believe it is fair to say that Escalations will be the way they are now when EE begins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We've continued to hear from Goblinworks, both on in-game chat and here on the boards, that low-population Settlements are not expected to be long-term viable. Perhaps being over-run by local escalations is *exactly* the design for under-populated Settlement destruction, given that siege equipment will arrive only in the uncertain future.
EDIT: Ryan's now clarified things; I was wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know, that is a problem. I rarely run across anyone out and about. That was before the new map. Maybe they need to rethink that so that people who do have a settlement will not just leave the game once they lose it (cant do anything with it) to an escalation.
Just because they say it, does not mean its a smart idea. Especially now.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Just because they say it, does not mean its a smart idea. Especially now.
You forget ! GW are very experienced professionals, they know better. They even know better than CCP, who totally failed EvE. They will obviously have more players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally expect friends to help friends with their escalations. Xeilias and Everbloom have each brought it up explicitly in the past, and I'll not be surprised if others've plans in that direction as well.
Whether that'll be "enough", we'll need to wait to see. I don't think anything before Early Enrollment will allow any conclusions.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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If escalations become a problem in the hexes immediately around Settlements and those Settlements ask for help, we will work with them to figure out a solution. The intent is not to make a Settlement unplayable (at least until there's a mechanism for other players to take a Settlement that's not cohesive enough to function and defend itself).
Bluddwolf is raising a good point, actually—it's unrealistic to expect people to be capable of mustering the same sorts of forces as can be expected after EE.
That said, that's only a problem if escalations need to be tested out. And since Bonny's groups have already been able to do so...
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People avoid escalations. I remember logging on the next day after passing through one... again they aren't really big enough that you can't go around them. IF they made the hexes impassable then they would be much tougher.
I logged in and it was like WOW this escalation is still at 100%. I even said in the chat WE NEED TO CLEAR THIS ESCALATION. No reply.
I don't think they grow really fast, but the issue is that people don't care. No rewards, no challenge beyond whack a mole...
I still think if you had 2-3 people you should be able to make a dent in an escalation.
You should be able to clear one in a very long time. Now it seems like it would take a day haha. I don't even really understand how to clear escalations. Do you kill all mobs or just the xs? I've not found much reduction from killing the xs. Would be nice if the mobs were HARDER, more aggressive ( so that you couldn't just walk through a high escalation hex) and not so spread out with so many tiny groups. It's more like cockroaches now than anything.
Imagine an escalation that was literally wall to wall with enemies, that would be funny. I don't think being able to sneak through them is good at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't even really understand how to clear escalations. Do you kill all mobs or just the xs? I've not found much reduction from killing the xs. Would be nice if the mobs were HARDER, more aggressive ( so that you couldn't just walk through a high escalation hex) and not so spread out with so many tiny groups. It's more like cockroaches now than anything.
In Alpha 7 we were able to clear an escalation in one hex with two 6-character parties, running separate paths thru the hex. In Alpha 8, the one escalation I took part in (one party) was dropping the level of the escalation for completing missions (the x's: killing priests and killing commanders); each completed mission bumped the escalation down something like 3% or 5%. The escalations had spread pretty wide by that point, we probably needed one or two parties in a hex, and maybe additional parties in adjecent hexes. Because adjacent infected hexes are going to be bumping the escalation up even as the PvE parties are working it down.
I think wise settlements are going to learn to clear escalations early. If you don't have the force to deal with it, get help.
Another thing the PvE types might consider: whether attacking an escalation's border hexes is easier than attacking an escalation's core hexes. That we don't know... I take this as evidence that the PvE types haven't gotten serious about testing escalations yet.
I don't even really understand how to clear escalations. Do you kill all mobs or just the xs? I've not found much reduction from killing the xs. Would be nice if the mobs were HARDER, more aggressive ( so that you couldn't just walk through a high escalation hex) and not so spread out with so many tiny groups. It's more like cockroaches now than anything.
In Alpha 7 we were able to clear an escalation in one hex with two 6-character parties, running separate paths thru the hex. In Alpha 8, the one escalation I took part in (one party) was dropping the level of the escalation for completing missions (the x's: killing priests and killing commanders); each completed mission bumped the escalation down something like 3% or 5%. The escalations had spread pretty wide by that point, we probably needed one or two parties in a hex, and maybe additional parties in adjecent hexes. Because adjacent infected hexes are going to be bumping the escalation up even as the PvE parties are working it down.
I think wise settlements are going to learn to clear escalations early. If you don't have the force to deal with it, get help.
Another thing the PvE types might consider: whether attacking an escalation's border hexes is easier than attacking an escalation's core hexes. That we don't know... I take this as evidence that the PvE types haven't gotten serious about testing escalations yet.
yeah, I went in on some in alpha 7. I really took it down, but it wasn't very high to start. I got rewards but I don't think I ever zeroed it out. It gave me messages, though. Maybe I did. It was just me and one other person, though, but obviously with OP chars.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If escalations become a problem in the hexes immediately around Settlements and those Settlements ask for help, we will work with them to figure out a solution. The intent is not to make a Settlement unplayable (at least until there's a mechanism for other players to take a Settlement that's not cohesive enough to function and defend itself).
Be prepared to do this a lot, because most settlements don't have the population to contend with an escalation at 50 - 100% strength.
Even those settlements that might have the population to do it, they have more incentive to harvest and craft than they do to run escalations that can be easily avoided.
Considering the reward for escalations only occurs when you complete it, unless it is very low when you start or you have a rare, large group, you won't see it to completion.
You should probably increase the rewards for doing escalations, create more incentives for doing them and give partial credit for doing them.
Achievement Incentive: 1.25 % credit for Kill Achievements
More Loot
Unique or Rare Recipes
Shorten the time it takes:
Make every mob encampment have a mission objective in it. It takes far too long just searching for mission objectives.
In Alpha 8, the one escalation I took part in (one party) was dropping the level of the escalation for completing missions (the x's: killing priests and killing commanders); each completed mission bumped the escalation down something like 3% or 5%.
How do you see what the missions are in a hex?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love that the game is so open ended, but that can also be a problem. After playing dozens of hours in alpha and still equipping nothing better than loot drops, I don't really understand what I should be doing to improve my character. I keep improving achievements which in turn allows me to train feats. I get that. But I don't really have any screens that clearly show me my improvements or stats. I'm increasing feats just because I think I should be.
Understanding crafting and how I can use it to improve my character seems to be a big hurdle as well. The keyword system is not intuitive at all. I've had it explained many times and I still don't get it. Just show me what "keywords" are active(?) and give me the numbers. Let me compare different armors and weapons to see which is better for me.
I hope people get over the grinding thing. There should be a grind, it should be fun though. I wish games would just stop billing "no grind".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know, that is a problem. I rarely run across anyone out and about. That was before the new map. Maybe they need to rethink that so that people who do have a settlement will not just leave the game once they lose it (cant do anything with it) to an escalation.
Just because they say it, does not mean its a smart idea. Especially now.
I don't think they will admit how small the population actually is. I think we are sitting on close to 30 alpha invites, and we can't even give them away. I had suggested the alpha server has maybe 500 unique players, but that number might be overly generous.
I'm curious how many will show up when they open alpha to all kick starters.