Goblin Squad Member
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This is my opinion and the opinions of others I have either invited to the game or tried to invite to the game. Try to read this and be open to it. Once someone can come to terms with a mindset, only then can they move forward and improve.
I know this myself, and have come to accept things I did not like. Look at it from another perspective and see the merits. Its not an easy thing to do, but everyone can do it.
Graphics - I know, MVP. When settlements are deployed, I would suggest that this becomes the highest priority for the game. Fix bugs during EE, but an army of graphics experts needs to get to work. I have had way too many people turn down or not even accept an alpha invite because of graphics alone. The comments were something like "What is this the year 2000?" or "What is that smegma?" or "What are they doing, there are tons of Unity games coming out that look 10 times better." I know you guys have worked hard on it. Keep going, you can get it done!!!
Personally, I do not care. If the game plays well, I can ignore the look. Too many people cannot, and most of them would play for a couple years. Think about it, and admit that this needs to be done.
Recruit a team of contractors for this. They do not need to be permanent employees. I know you already have people working on this, but get them help to get the job done. (easier said then done expense wise, but you can figure out a way)
Achievements - This is not supposed to be a grind game. For the people who go out and farm NPC's on a daily basis, it will not be. Only because they grind by choice. As a sandbox game, there needs to be ways of not being required to grind. I have already been stopped in advancement multiple times because I did not have enough kills with specific weapons.
I know what the point is... to keep people from logging off for six months then coming back and spending tons of xp. Guess what, they paid for that xp, they paid for their character to advance. There is no good reason to stop that unless GW does not want to get paid. The people who would do this, log off for six months then come back, will not keep their account active and will not likely return to the game. Eve has a massive number of people who return to the game because their characters keep training for six months. They have something invested and come back to the game because of it. If GW keeps with the mindset of "We dont want them to come back Uber" then you will not have the success you are striving for. That is part of that Eve model that has made them so successful.
Classes - Sure, the preferred term is Role. It is still a class. This is a class based game. I must increase my class to increase my character. The Role is the feature and armor feats I equip. Just admit that it is a class based skill game and we can move on. It is what it is, and I can live with it.
PVP - This is always a heated issue. People come to games like this was sold as to have fun with PVP. If you limit character growth because they PVP, then you will lose those people. I am not talking about actual griefing or scamming. Prevent that, all good. As said before, and I agree with, you cannot prevent griefing with a mechanic. What you also do not need to do is punish people for doing what you allow them to do. Put in the islands of non punished PVP. Make these areas the most valuable hexes in the game. Do this on top of what is already planned. People will absolutely risk pvp to get the good stuff. This was touted as a PVP sandbox game, anyone who signed up for it knows that, even the PVP haters.
Crafting and Drops - Allow people to make the basic equipment, but do not require it. All monsters in game should have a NON-Diminishing chance to drop basic equipment. Let people focus on crafting the high end stuff, like T2 and T3. Diversify what mobs drop, ie Bandits drop leather armor and short bows, goblins drop short swords and spears, Orge's drop clubs and great swords... etc etc (that is just an example that should be expanded upon).
I know the point of a player economy. Players drive the economy, and they should. I have no problems with that, but... Basic equipment should be dropped in high numbers for an extended period of time by every mob, then turned down. Jam the market with basic equipment then dial it back. People should not be required to spend countless hours crafting the stuff they need to play their characters. For instance, I have yet to find a single handed sword that is not a short sword. If I was playing a sword and board based fighter, I would be pretty upset.
Allow a Focus - As a sandbox game, I should be able to choose a path I want my character to advance. If I choose to play a fighter, and do not want to craft or gather what so ever. There is no reason I should spend over a months worth of my xp on crafting skills in a years worth of play. (see Cheatle's breakdown in the 4.5 year capstone thread).
I can agree to forcing diversity within a class. If I need to take different weapon feats for weapons I do not plan to use, I can understand that. I am playing a fighter after all. Not crafting or gathering on a particular character is a meaningful choice. Forcing me to take the skills that are not part of that class is not.
@GW Leadership - Remember that you are the face of GW and Pathfinder. Telling potential customers that you do not like them or ending rants with SMDH can be seen by everyone. I know I am not a great model for social policy, but I am also not speaking for a company trying to recruit customers. I have one friend who said she will not be coming to the game because of this alone (her opinion is that the crowdforging will be a joke because of this). I had her in alpha, and she is a Pathfinder supporter (Plays many sessions at GenCon every year).
My guess is that this will be ignored due to the last statement alone. I urge you to take the criticism to heart and build on it. You can succeed.
"That is part of that Eve model that has made them so successful."
Sometimes I wonder what the EVE subscription stats would look like if you only included 1 account from a single person. I'm not sure if CCP ever provided stats on the average number of accounts a person has in EVE, but many have multiple.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah. I find myself calling the "roles" in this game classes even after all this time because that's what seems natural.
Playing alpha has really only reinforced that for me. With the class feature and armor feature you are forced to train down the line of a class since there are no "general" abilities for either of those slots.
You either single class or you multiclass.
"PFO is a game that allows multiclassing." That is a statement that rings far more true than "PFO is a game with no classes" and will attract the crowd who hates being defined by their class just as effectively.
Plus it will stop those angry posters who come in freaking about "How can you build a Pathfinder game with no classes?!?!" I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers that. And I was able to calm them down when I showed them that a role really is a class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"That is part of that Eve model that has made them so successful."
Sometimes I wonder what the EVE subscription stats would look like if you only included 1 account from a single person. I'm not sure if CCP ever provided stats on the average number of accounts a person has in EVE, but many have multiple.
Oh yeah, I agree. I always had 2 and planned to do the same here. I expect most people who play this game will have at least 2 characters training. Granted a lot will have their DT as the second. I on the other hand will have 4 counting those minimum. If I stick around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah. I find myself calling the "roles" in this game classes even after all this time because that's what seems natural.
Playing alpha has really only reinforced that for me. With the class feature and armor feature you are forced to train down the line of a class since there are no "general" abilities for either of those slots.
You either single class or you multiclass.
"PFO is a game that allows multiclassing." That is a statement that rings far more true than "PFO is a game with no classes" and will attract the crowd who hates being defined by their class just as effectively.
That would be a great selling feature.
PFO, the game that allows you to multiclass.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right this game already allows some really great variety of character concepts even within single role characters that won't lose dedication bonus. The only thing preventing a true magus at this point is you can't use an arcane object as an offhand for a 1-hand melee weapon and the mystic theurge is already possible. Arcane trickster or archer? Why not? All they need to make such concepts super effective is an armor role that gives bonus damage to both damage types.
There is already huge variety possible people may start tapping into if the dedication bonuses aren't overly strong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen, thanks for posting this. I don't necessarily agree with everything you're asking for, but it's nice to see a post like this that really goes out of its way to address the counterarguments, and to acknowledge all the hard work from a very small team of developers.
Graphics - I've heard the same complaints. I have friends who won't even try the Alpha because the graphics don't have the polished look they've come to expect from "Triple A" MMOs.
At the same time, I've noticed the constant improvement in the graphics since Alpha 1. And I have no doubt that the art team is acutely aware of the areas they'd like to improve, and I'm sure they'd love to have a team of 100 artists and a few years to improve them.
Achievements - I understand the concerns, but I disagree with what you're asking for. This kind of gating is something we've known about from the very beginning. I would ask you to seriously consider whether your request that PvPers never have to engage in PvE is any different from someone else's request that PvEers never have to engage in PvP. Everyone is going to have to deal with constraints they'd rather not have to deal with, but those constraints are a large part of what makes the game work.
Classes - I'm probably more inclined to defer to Ryan's judgment, but I definitely see where you're coming from and would have a hard time arguing against anything you said here.
PvP - I agree with you in principle. There needs to be a way for folks who want to PvP to do so without trashing their Reputation. I'm even inclined to support your suggested solution.
Crafting and Drops - Again, I'd have a hard time making an argument against what you're asking for. I don't see any harm in flooding the market with Tier 1 +0 gear.
Allow a Focus - I very strongly agree. I would prefer not to have to dabble in Gathering, Refining, or Crafting just to get the Ability Score increases I need to advance as a Wizard. If there are good reasons to force this, I don't understand them.
Finally, I want to reiterate that I think you were largely successful in your attempt to provide constructive criticism.
Thanks
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My biggest issue with Achievements is that you have to get the killing blow. Depending on how a group plays, someone will end up with the majority of killing blows depending on your role within the group and damage-output details. I'd much rather see each kill be divided by the number of players in a group and doled out as a fraction. Right now you either have to solo a lot or "round robin" kills to ensure that everyone can level up - and that's when partying with friends.
As for graphics, I've stated this multiple times. You're going to have a hard time getting people to play a game that looks like DAoC, but will require a computer upgrade for many people. It's just not going to fly to have a game take 3 GB of RAM and max out the processor and graphics card of a modern system to have it look as unfinished as it does. I understand that the REASON it takes so many resources is because it's unfinished, but for someone that has to upgrade to play a game that looks like it's from the mid-2000s, that expense isn't going to fly and it's going to be a barrier to entry for some, and a huge source of complaints for those who spend the money.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Nihimon
Graphics - Yeah I have seen improvements as well. I just think we need a big jump to bring them in. If PFO can grab those people, we will get the ball rolling for the game in a big way. I honestly think we will hit PFO's goals with this. (sad to say though, people are too stuck on looks over playability, hell I have even played Trade Wars Beta recently)
Achievements - I know we have known there would be something. I also think that PVPers will have no choice but to PVE, if they want a settlement that is. I just think there could be a better way, I just dont know of one... maybe game money? Make people buy skills with gold and xp.. I dont know
Classes - Cool
PVP - Cool
Crafting and Drops - Cool
Allow a Focus - Cool
Thanks again Nihimon
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Xeen, I agree with most of what you said here. I don't have anything to offer on the items I don't agree with so will just leave those alone. I do see that things are moving along and with constructive criticism like this (and if people respond with agreement) I think GW will listen. The game has already come a long way from early Alpha and many of the systems are starting to fall into place. With a few more months development as we enter EE, I'm pretty sure many of the issues you have mentioned will work themselves out between GW and the community. Again. thanks and I'm happy you shared this.
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I think that players asking for AAA graphics is a mis-representation of the nature of the issue. I've been involved in a lot of small-development "indie" games, and the bare, unfinished nature of PFO's graphics were still a shock to me. I'm not going to harp on graphics as much as getting system load down, but to say that PFO just fails to live up to AAA standards is mis-representing the issue. PFO falls short of the visual quality of most indie games today. Whether that's an issue or not is up to each player, but lets at least be honest about the state of things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Xeen's point is "Someone might leave for a whole year, come back and be uber!" should be seen less as a nightmare scenario and more as 180$ toward the development of PFO and a reason for someone to come back and play later.
In other words, do it like EVE and don't gate progression by achievements. If they paid for the XP then let them use it.
I see potential in the achievement system, especially as it ties into influence. But I agree it wouldn't be too sad if it was taken in a direction other than gating character progression.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Refreshing to see clarity, even in parts where we disagree :) Well done, Xeen!
I do think we have to have some kind of advancement regulator, but as much as I'd like to propose a better idea than achievements, I haven't thought of any candidates.
Thanks Being
I was thinking of gold as a regulator. Sure, you can make tons of it and have plenty if you return after a break... but that is the same as grinding achievements. (and if someone doesnt have tons of gold, they may likely buy some goblin balls, hint hint, money lol)
I think Xeen's point is "Someone might leave for a whole year, come back and be uber!" should be seen less as a nightmare scenario and more as 180$ toward the development of PFO and a reason for someone to come back and play later.
In other words, do it like EVE and don't gate progression by achievements. If they paid for the XP then let them use it.
I see potential in the achievement system, especially as it ties into influence. But I agree it wouldn't be too sad if it was taken in a direction other than gating character progression.
Exactly as I see it. Its money in the bank, and the player has something drawing them back to the game. If they cannot spend that xp on what they were looking to play, they may not keep the character training or return at all.
Achievements should stay, and be used for DI or some other thing I cannot think of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah. I find myself calling the "roles" in this game classes even after all this time because that's what seems natural.
Playing alpha has really only reinforced that for me. With the class feature and armor feature you are forced to train down the line of a class since there are no "general" abilities for either of those slots.
You either single class or you multiclass.
"PFO is a game that allows multiclassing." That is a statement that rings far more true than "PFO is a game with no classes" and will attract the crowd who hates being defined by their class just as effectively.
That would be a great selling feature.
PFO, the game that allows you to multiclass.
Or, PFO, the game that encourages you to multiclass. (or "makes it easy to")
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Goblin Squad Member
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Achievements - I understand the concerns, but I disagree with what you're asking for. This kind of gating is something we've known about from the very beginning. I would ask you to seriously consider whether your request that PvPers never have to engage in PvE is any different from someone else's request that PvEers never have to engage in PvP. Everyone is going to have to deal with constraints they'd rather not have to deal with, but those constraints are a large part of what makes the game work.
I was thinking about this a little more.
I know that PVPers will have to PVE, or they will have to do something else like craft or gather. This I am 99% sure of, the only other alternative is that they buy Goblin Balls.
They will need to sustain their PVP habits. It can be very costly. I know I expect to die a lot and lose a lot of stuff. It is just the way it is.
With that said, I will have a separate character that will be focused on some form of non PVP. Whatever the method, I have not decided. Now, should I be required to grind my PVP character to increase skills? I believe no, but that is my thought there.
Maybe my above thought to Being would work?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Graphics - Obviously it is going to have a big impact on marketshare, and right now, the graphics aren't good. But as Nihimon points out, the delta's pretty good so far.
Achievements - I see where you are coming from on this. On the one hand, GW has had this brilliant idea: get rid of the grind. Brilliant, right? But then there's weird impulse to add back in a grind or else people will just accrue exp without having to grind…which we thought was the brilliant idea in the first place.
If achievements could be expanded enough so that they were an incentive to explore the world, rather than a gatekeeper, I think that would work.
Classes - Again, I see where you are coming from. This is one of those things that makes some sense, but in practice doesn't seem to work. People use the word class all the time. "Class + Multi-class" might be a better way of explaining PFO to newcomers.
PVP - Agree that this needs to happen eventually. If the game is heavily PvE while we build the social world, and then we move into more and more PvP, I'm ok with that.
Crafting and Drops - No, no no no! The best thing this game has going for it, really right now the only thing it has going for it, is the social interdependence of having a resource gathering/crafting cycle. The worst possible mistake GW could make right now is add basic drops in, and help people solo. The exact opposite of the game design model.
Allow a Focus - Agree. It's kind of weird again--the game right now is fun because I like to run out and whack monsters and collect resources, and my friend likes to stay back at town and make me stuff. Why force us to cross-train for the stuff we don't like, against the grain of interdependence? Makes no sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding Achievements, something I've been thinking about putting on Ideascale:
Current mechanisms that control advancement boil down to: xp and achievements.
Both of these represent time. Time (in- and out- of game) to accumulate xp. In-game time to do specific activities to meet criteria for achievements.
Some people equate in game time spent on activities they can't choose, to be undesirable ("grind").
I suggest a third mechanism could be considered as an additional mechanism to represent in game time: in game time :)
Essentially this is an in-game time cool down on the ability to train specific feats currently requiring achievements and xp. It would be equivalent to what they expect to be the in-game time it would take to meet the achievement requirements, which has previously been stated to correlate with the accumulation of xp needed to buy the feat.
The cooldown and achievements could be completely independent. Or completed achievements could reduce the cooldown timer. This opens the door to criticism achievements are "required" as some players view any possible efficiency as required, but might be viewed by others as a meaningful choice (do I bank xp and "grind" achievement to allow buying feat "early").
Summary: allows people to choose either Achievements or a Cooldown timer to determine when they can advance, provided they have the xp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TL;DR This game is going places but needs a lot of work. SO what else is new!
Graphics: Agreed, this should keep getting serious attention. I think the landscaping (including the towns and buildings) need the most work, as well as animations. I can already see the potential of the Avatar-graphics, I think those are coming along nicely. MY biggest pet peeve is the layout of props in the countryside and Towns. The towns aren't exactly architectural wonders, the layout is odd and smaller props just seem to have been sprinkled across towns as filler, but without much thought for credability and/or atmosphere. Like a stone bridge over a small body of water that you could just as easily walk around. Or the very high and steep stairs on one side of the Thornkeep Stone Bridges,that aren't even necessary if they had made the bridge a few meters longer: I can see those poor merchants trying to haul their carts up those stairs!
The only area so far that triggered a sense of "pretty" with me was that small road in Thornkeep that leads up from the river to the Thirsty Ogre Inn: it winds up the hill, the buildings along it seem to be well placed and the cul de sac at the end with the Inn is a nice touch. The waterwell there is a nice prop but typical of the odd placement of things: you would expect the well to be a hundred yards down, by the river. It is probably not fair to compare Thornkeep to any Themepark MMO town, but I was expecting a little more from Thornkeep. I guess the future playersettlements will have to follow certain rules when it comes to placement, but hopefully settlement leaders will be able to spice up their town with props (buyable as MTX?)and influence layout too. Sorry if I am offending anyone, I realize that there's probably one guy that has to design and seed the entire landscape, which is huge. The landscape could use a lot of props too, and it is overall too "rolling" (needs more angles, cliffs, rockfaces, brooks, dead trunks etcetera).
Achievements: I agree, I am sure I will start to hate those at some point. I would say lower the requirements, or implement simple "Role" quests at certain levels that open up the next x Skill tiers.
I am probably *less* inclined to let my sub running when I am taking a break, when I know that once I come back that I have to do a bunch of grinding, then when I can start spending that chunk of XP immediately, or just have to do a couple of (hopefully fun) quests. After all, this game is about so much more then just "building up those skills". Even I, as a non-PvP-er would want to focus on so many other things then killing those "flesh-nodes". I am sure someone who plays every evening, will probably naturally rake in those kills, but if you guys want to make some serious (eve-like) money, you need to cater to those folks that sometimes shelf a game for a while, but have no problem letting their sub run, as long as it pays off in the end, when they decided to come back. I revisit games constantly, so make it worth my while. I am not alone in this.
Classes: I understand where "Role" is coming from: the name fits stuff like Commoner and Harvester and Officer better. I guess the phrase multiclassing is better known with the public, but I think people can learn to embrace the new nomenclature.
PvP: I do not agree with reputation-less Hexes. I think *every* PvP should be rooted somehow into the Economical and Political Warfare between settlememts. GW just has to make sure that the whole resource-economy provides enough incentive for competition, strife and animosities. I am sure that between Factions, Local Hex-laws, Feuds, Wars and Caravans/SADs/Bandits, more then enough PvP chances will arise.
If a Settlement wants to install a Hex-law that makes you FFA(no reploss) in one of their controlled Hexes, then I am fine with that: it is on *me* to know where I should and should not tread. That is still better then simply have FFA hexes, because it has been a decision from that Settlement to be so hostile, and reap the possible negative effects of that.
But I do not like non-controlled Hexes to be FFA. If you get sick from all those high-rep solo-harvesters that are hogging the skymetal nodes, then find out which settlement they belong too and declare a war. :) Or which factions they belong to and send in some Alts with an opposite faction.(does every character have to choose a faction?) Wars need to originate from something!
Crafting and Drops: after 3 evenings of play I have looted multiples of each basic weapon, as well as multiples of each starter armor(cloth, light, medium, heavy). Not only that, but after working the AH for an evening I am now sporting a +1 Longbow, +1 Longsword and +1 Heavy Shield. I think only basic +0 stuff should drop, there are enough crafters and gatherers in the game to have +1 stuff on the AH after a few days. I think this is a very fun phase of the game.
Allow a Focus: I agree with this wholeheartedly.
@Xeen Did someone say they did not like you? :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most of the points I don't personally care much either way to argue so I'll just say good post.
But I will add my voice that 'Allow a Focus' should be strongly considered. Breadth of focus should be it's own reward and an alternate way to gain those stat increases, but not the de facto way to do it in my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyncale - Thanks for the response.
Yes, you are correct, the game needs lots of work and that is not new. I felt that the concerns that have been raised to me, and I have thought about need to be raised. I honestly expected a lot of blow back but am pleasantly surprised... Which means most of the players see the same things, overall.
Graphics - I myself was not concerned over the placement of things. Its an interesting perspective and will look later. What I was told by others, is that they did not like the general landscape as much and the characters were the main concern.
Achievements - Cool
Classes - Cool
PVP - All those high rep solo harvesters hogging up the skymetal hexes will just be targeted anyway, rep loss or no. The problem is, that they will not be happy. Expecting the rep system to keep them "safer." If they know ahead of time that it is a much more dangerous hex... They would be more inclined to come prepared. After all, no risk no reward
Crafting and Drops - I agree, only basic +0 items should ever drop. The good stuff is player created only
Focus - Cool
No, no one said they did not like me here, I can tell you that I know some would claim that just fine. I was mainly referring to a GW employee and Steelwing. I wont say much past that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good post. I can't honestly really disagree on anything. My fiancée giggles at me for playing PFO. She refuses to try alpha which puts one of the best PvP healers I've ever met out of the equation. Is she a little shallow on the graphics, yeah. Where she isn't shallow is the game's responsiveness.
I personally can live with the graphics and animations. What kills me is how slow the game responds when I hit a button. Sometimes I'll have animations that are three actions ahead of the damage done to the mob. (I.E. I've hit an attack three times and the animations are keying but it was three actions ago that the damage killed the mob.) I'm not exactly sure what causes this. It could be lag, of course, but it's not an issue I have in other MMOs or on PS4 online games.
Achievements are grindy. I'd vote for a gold (training fee) gate for abilities over anything else. Does that mean people buying and then selling goblin balls could gain an advantage? Sure. Would I be killing the mobs from the achievements anyway? Not really, if I could help it. I suppose I might go after mobs that drop mats for stuff I want crafted or to gain coin but...meh. Maybe even to help out my settlement's crafting but still, meh.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting OP, my thoughts:
Graphics: I am fine with the models and landscape, and have seen improvements especially on buildings. I wish for better animations and, off-topic, better movement. Combat feels too static imo.
Achievements: I am a typical gatherer. I have miner 6 and around 124 adventure points. I am done <= bad english. I meant finished all achievements needed to raise gathering skills . Martial is at 56, subterfuge 25. I don't think the "gating" works as intended. I support the idea with the Goblin Balls. Let them throw money at GW!
Classes: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet".
PvP: Don't like this. From the early Blogs, i had the impression everything outside the main roads, Starter Towns and Settlements is ffa. I am surprised PvP'ers will have such a hard time reputation-wise. Thus i support ffa everywhere except where NPC/PC law doesn't allow.
Crafting and Drops: No. Everything should be player made from the beginning. What Mbando said.
Focus: Agreed. Works in both directions. I don't want to dabble with shield or more than one armor feat to get high enough CON to raise miner/smelter.
My two coppers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Achievements are grindy. I'd vote for a gold (training fee) gate for abilities over anything else. Does that mean people buying and then selling goblin balls could gain an advantage? Sure.
How about giving characters not fulfilling the achievement requirement the option to use in game money (possibly acquired through the use of Goblin Balls) to bypass the achievement requirement to buy skills that would otherwise be gated behind an achievement?
Personally I would not be against removing achievements as a gating mechanism altogether, but if some gating needs to remain, the more options the better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PvP: Don't like this. From the early Blogs, i had the impression everything outside the main roads, Starter Towns and Settlements is ffa. I am surprised PvP'ers will have such a hard time reputation-wise. Thus i support ffa everywhere except where NPC/PC law doesn't allow.
Oh, it is FFA everywhere, even in towns. It's just there are fairly significant complications involved with it. Consequences.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...around 124 adventure points. I am done. Martial is at 56, subterfuge 25.I can't tell: you have many Achievements; are you facing a demand for more that's caused you to be done?
Lol. Sorry, my bad. "Done" in the sense of: achieved everything gatherer-wise to raise miner as high as i want. Miner will improve naturally. I could ignore any other adventure achievement from now on, because i already reached the needed "maximum" of 121 adventure points needed for gathering skills.
Sorry for my bad english.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I should've thought about English possibly not being your first language, since you're in Kreuz Bernstein. I think your English is so good that I assumed you intended the idiomatic use, and not the literal; that's *my* bad, not yours.
It's been clear--to me--that we'd eventually hit exactly that point in all of our Achievements, making them become a moot point. It seems an issue primarily for those who're sprinting ahead in one particular direction, and not spreading out their activities; that's behaviour that's almost never met with a lack of boredom in other games, and one hears the same messages from those players there as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's been clear--to me--that we'd eventually hit exactly that point in all of our Achievements, making them become a moot point. It seems an issue primarily for those who're sprinting ahead in one particular direction, and not spreading out their activities; that's behaviour that's almost never met with a lack of boredom in other games, and one hears the same messages from those players there as well.
This is, of course, boring (imo). It's getting interesting when i start farming for my settlement! In my opinion, all motivation will come from this source.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If achievements could be expanded enough so that they were an incentive to explore the world, rather than a gatekeeper, I think that would work.
That's exactly my feeling. I love achievements. I know when I played Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 I really had a lot of fun going for certain achievements.
My reward? Bragging rights and possibly a cool new avatar.
In PFO we get influence, and hell maybe they could add some title or cosmetic perks for people who get certain achievements as well. But I'd rather see them create achievements I will strive to earn because I want to, and not because it's standing between me and some essential component of my character's build.
I'm sure after the first few weeks I'll have more achievement points that I really need anyway but still. I don't want to be zapping enemies with weapons I hate using or whatever to get points to advance my character in the meantime.
Personally, if someone is paying for an account they aren't using because they want XP and comes back super strong, that's 100% fine with me.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Achievements - I understand the concerns, but I disagree with what you're asking for. This kind of gating is something we've known about from the very beginning. I would ask you to seriously consider whether your request that PvPers never have to engage in PvE is any different from someone else's request that PvEers never have to engage in PvP. Everyone is going to have to deal with constraints they'd rather not have to deal with, but those constraints are a large part of what makes the game work.
Kickstarter frontpage :
"1. No Grinding- Pathfinder Online uses a skill training system like that of EVE Online. You train skills by choosing what skill you want to train and allowing the time required to elapse. You don't train any faster by farming mobs or spamming your abilities than you do exploring the world, role playing with your friends, or even being offline. You will need to complete certain achievements to complete a skill and open up new avenues of training."
No grinding. In bold.
It was obvious that "you will need to complete certain achievements" meant meaningful achievements, quality achievement, NOT achievements based on grinding.
That was THE, argument that made me support the game. I am ok with having to craft the best tier 1 axe possible as an achievement to access tier, but I am not okay with having to craft 10 axes. Just as I am okay with having to kill big elite world boss Y to get more stamina or whatever, but I am not okay with having to kill 250 goblins, no way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kickstarter frontpage :
"1. No Grinding- Pathfinder Online uses a skill training system like that of EVE Online. You train skills by choosing what skill you want to train and allowing the time required to elapse. You don't train any faster by farming mobs or spamming your abilities than you do exploring the world, role playing with your friends, or even being offline. You will need to complete certain achievements to complete a skill and open up new avenues of training."
No grinding. In bold.
To be fair that was written by me an not a GW dev. But they did edit it and post on the KS front page.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's exactly my feeling. I love achievements. I know when I played Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 I really had a lot of fun going for certain achievements.
My reward? Bragging rights and possibly a cool new avatar.
In PFO we get influence, and hell maybe they could add some title or cosmetic perks for people who get certain achievements as well. But I'd rather see them create achievements I will strive to earn because I want to, and not because it's standing between me and some essential component of my character's build.
Could you describe in more detail what sort of achievements you would find irresistible? Like, oh, counting coup on Being?
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be fair that was written by me an not a GW dev. But they did edit it and post on the KS front page.Kickstarter frontpage :
"1. No Grinding- Pathfinder Online uses a skill training system like that of EVE Online. You train skills by choosing what skill you want to train and allowing the time required to elapse. You don't train any faster by farming mobs or spamming your abilities than you do exploring the world, role playing with your friends, or even being offline. You will need to complete certain achievements to complete a skill and open up new avenues of training."
No grinding. In bold.
I am pretty sure it says that on the KS page.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what kinds of achievements did we envision when we read that?
I had dreams of being a Druid. For my part I somehow imagined I would have to win through harrowing adventures to reach my druid trainer. That isn't anywhere anything Ryan said or even alluded to... but what did you imagine?
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Goblin Squad Member
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No grinding. In bold.
People are worried about "no grinding" when we're still in Alpha? We know there are many activities that'll come along--but which aren't yet ready--that'll expand the pool of Achievement-getting.
It's not going to feel like much of a grind when we have to go clear an escalation out of a hex where we want to put an Outpost, or which is threatening our Settlement, but we'll be performing the same actions then as we are *testing* now, but with dramatically different purpose. Perhaps it's a bit early to be concerned that there isn't enough to do, or enough reason to do it?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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People are worried about "no grinding" when we're still in Alpha? We know there are many activities that'll come along--but which aren't yet ready--that'll expand the pool of Achievement-getting.
It's not going to feel like much of a grind when we have to go clear an escalation out of a hex where we want to put an Outpost, or which is threatening our Settlement, but we'll be performing the same actions then as we are *testing* now, but with dramatically different purpose. Perhaps it's a bit early to be concerned that there isn't enough to do, or enough reason to do it?
I am not concerned, I'm sure it will be deleted. I was just answering a point.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I am pretty sure it says that on the KS page.To be fair that was written by me an not a GW dev. But they did edit it and post on the KS front page.Kickstarter frontpage :
"1. No Grinding- Pathfinder Online uses a skill training system like that of EVE Online. You train skills by choosing what skill you want to train and allowing the time required to elapse. You don't train any faster by farming mobs or spamming your abilities than you do exploring the world, role playing with your friends, or even being offline. You will need to complete certain achievements to complete a skill and open up new avenues of training."
No grinding. In bold.
Yes, but it's still presented as the highlights of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not going to feel like much of a grind when we have to go clear an escalation out of a hex where we want to put an Outpost, or which is threatening our Settlement, but we'll be performing the same actions then as we are *testing* now, but with dramatically different purpose. Perhaps it's a bit early to be concerned that there isn't enough to do, or enough reason to do it?
Even if we are doing fun stuff like escalations, it can still be grindy of we have to make sure that we get the killing blow with a particular weapon, or with a particular skill slotted, or having to do the final blow round-robbin. So so don't rely on the intended content being in place to be a solution to the problem of there being at least the perception of a grind where there is not supposed to be one.