Constructive Criticism


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
...make sure that we get the killing blow...
Oh yes, I completely agree--especially as a spell-casting Cleric--that "killing blow" needs serious adjustment or revision.

The only solution I can see is what people were saying in one of the other threads that the number of ways to get achievements has to be vastly, vastly increased, including a equal or generally equal number of non-combat ways for the more general achievements which large percentages of characters will have to get.

Grinding is fine with me as long as I can grind in multiple different ways for the same thing, depending on how much time/attention I have to spend on the game at a given time.

Goblin Squad Member

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Great post Xeen, I agree with 90% of it, and find nothing particularly objectionable. Nice to see a clearly thought out critique. I hope for a bit more out of the pvp, was hoping to be a caravan guard, gatherer protector "for the big node's". I don't see that making it into the mvp but I hope to see it before EO. I feel with what i have have seen, and what has been said the pvp of PFO will make or break the game. To make it clear, I in general don't deal with pvp and only occasionaly play pvp games, in most game I have never found it meaningful enough to participate in. However with the idea's that have been floated about in PFO I see that as a fun possibility. Defending your settlement, or other peoples creations/resources, is something I could develop a character around.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Darkfall: Unholy Wars was praised as "less grindy".

The fastest way to advance was to kill about 400 of each monster type. There were literally dozens of monster types.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Darkfall: Unholy Wars was praised as "less grindy".

The fastest way to advance was to kill about 400 of each monster type. There were literally dozens of monster types.

That's because Darkfall Original could have also been named "Darkfall Unholy Grind" or "Darkfall Macro Wars".

When I started GL I had been grinding 6 months and I had just barely stopped calling myself a newb, but I was by no means a vet. I was still missing some extremely critical abilities such as Wall of Force and had a long ways to go to get them if I wasn't going to afk-macro my way there (and I never used afk macros).

UW was an improvement in that department. That doesn't mean it should be the model for PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

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Correct me if I'm wrong, Andius, but when you wrote that "No Grinding" blurb, you were very much talking about XP-Grinding. At least, that's what it sounds like.

It seems somewhat unfair to act as if Goblinworks promised us that we would never have to grind mobs to get Recipes or Expendables or Achievements, or that we would never have to grind resource nodes to farm enough resources to single-handedly equip our guild with better gear (I'm looking at you, Valkenr).

Goblin Squad Member

When I wrote "No grinding" what I meant, and intended to say is that you could play the game you wanted to play it and still create a very powerful character.

Be that slaughtering goblins, guarding caravans, robbing caravans, or tossing dice and downing beers at a tavern.

I had hoped and even partially believed the achievements were things like hunting down and killing a powerful type of monster. Not killing 500 little puny ones.

If you get 50 xp per goblin and you need 25k for a certain ability, or you get XP while doing whatever but you need to kill 500 goblins for the achievement points for the ability you want, it's prettymuch the same thing.

I very much understand how the current system is considered to be a grind. If I left for a year, came back and discovered I needed to do a year worth of grinding mobs to get to the strength of those who killed them during general play over the course of the year... I would be pretty pissed too.

One of the brilliant parts of EVE is that it keeps people subbing even if they aren't playing and I don't see why any company would seek to discourage that.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
If I left for a year, came back and discovered I needed to do a year worth of grinding mobs to get to the strength of those who killed them during general play over the course of the year... I would be pretty pissed too.

Considering that Valkenr is on the verge (and might already have achieved) Longbow Expert 9 (6,250 kills with a Longbow), and that I managed to get Arcane Expert 8 in one of the prior builds and already have Arcane Expert 7 in this build even though I've been spending far more time working on the WikiData than playing, I'm having a hard time understanding how you could ever need to do "a year worth of grinding mobs".

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Andius the Afflicted wrote:
If I left for a year, came back and discovered I needed to do a year worth of grinding mobs to get to the strength of those who killed them during general play over the course of the year... I would be pretty pissed too.

Considering that Valkenr is on the verge (and might already have achieved) Longbow Expert 9 (6,250 kills with a Longbow), and that I managed to get Arcane Expert 8 in one of the prior builds and already have Arcane Expert 7 in this build even though I've been spending far more time working on the WikiData than playing, I'm having a hard time understanding how you could ever need to do "a year worth of grinding mobs".

And if that stays the case then it begs the question, what exactly is the system accomplishing?

That's why I said in an earlier topic that it seems like it's a barrier to entry system because it only seems to matter when you start out.

Goblin Squad Member

Where as I agree, in the long run it would probably not matter if you use only 1 character.

For me:

Character 1) Pure PVP, does nothing else

Character 2) Does the other stuff, mainly PVE and gathering

If I have character 2 for it, why should I be forced to take Character 1 out and grind so I can advance?

I am playing the game after all. I just have multiple characters.

(its not a corner case, most players will have two characters... and the majority of those will be DT's... so no multiboxing)

Just some added thoughts


I don't think the graphics would matter if the game is good. Maybe to casuals, but to a long-term base not as much.

The issue I have with achievements is simple: It's regulating the growth of experience. So, you can not grow any faster than that, but you must achieve in order to keep up with that. If there was a non-time based model... that you could get exp from... gathering... farming... crafting. Then, it would be no issue.

Even if exp gained as it did but you could supplement it with achievements... then it wouldn't be grind. Grind, to me, is defined as forced work to progress. Not to grow, but that the game is going in a certain direction and you are barred from following it until you pass a milestone.

I've done plenty of 'farming' in Diablo. I didn't think that was grindy. Same in older RPGs. Then one day I played a game and it said, "You need x amount of points to go thru this gate!" And it was like huh?


Thanks Xeen. I think this was all-around very agreeable and well written, especially for being openly confrontational. Kudos.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Here are some interesting stats from my main character in regard to gating:

Crafting: I have 22+ points - all fine up to level 7 which would need 5 days in XP for a single role and I could easily create a few more points but rather distribute them between characters

Adventure: I have 36+ adventure points - enough for a full month of XP for a single gathering role

Martial: I'm at 14 points - that is 0.1 day XP to max out HP, and not much for proficiency

So for crafting and adventure there is no issue with the gating. I played a lot - but I also didn't optimize and tried to grind points.

Lets look at it from a different perspective:

Gathering I have enough points for tier 2
Crafting - I reach the top of tier 1 and tier 2 is easily reachable if I want
Attacks, HP and Power I need twice as much to reach tier 2. And these don't get easier. Some other get easier when you get better, have access to + recipes or can slay more difficult monsters

I haven't checked if there are weapons out that I haven't used - but I would need to change something (or grind) to get up in fighting. So far I like my mace, use a longbow and have dabbled with a greatsword.

I thought I bring this up. This might be the reason not everyone perceives the gating as a grind - as it seems mainly a grind to get up in attacks/fighting.
There are issues with crafting - and it took me a while to work them out - but now I could guide a newbie quickly through it. And it becomes even easier if an old hand can supply a few +1, 2 or best +3 ingredients as this is like a rocket booster for your crafting points.


Yeah, it's easy to get points if you have people giving you mats or you are giving them to yourself. True that. But to start from 0 is kind of tough. Not to mention, someone had to do it.

Adventure are easy mode points because you can get them without doing anything. You can probably even party up with someone and let them do all of the killing. Enemies go down really fast in groups.

There are some issues with weapon-based attacks because you need killing blows.

Gather, adventure are points you almost cannot avoid. Then, it gets harder. Crafting points depend on gathering and adventuring, so they are inherently harder.

I am looking at all of these "from 0." Of course, if you get everything from friends, crafting is the easiest. Here is your recipe, here are your mats, have fun.

Not to mention, when you start getting toward the top, I imagine it'll be pretty disgusting in terms of grind.

I agree that coming back after 6 months would make you wanna shoot yourself, to do all of that 'achieving.'

Goblin Squad Member

celestialiar wrote:
I agree that coming back after 6 months would make you wanna shoot yourself, to do all of that 'achieving.'

I think that 'achieving' is actually a pretty clever mechanic. It adds burdens to pay-to-win.

- A player with deep pockets can buy a subscription and gather xp for 6 months, 2 years, whatever. The character isn't complete though, not without the player actually playing for some time.

- A player with deep pockets could alternatively buy a character from another player, a character that has been pre-played and all of those achievements have been earned (maybe even earned, but not spent. Perhaps there is a market...). But Deeppocket's character will have a harder time gaining Influence for his company, because the player that did the grinding has already garnered the easy achievements - and the grinder's company got the Influence.

I think reducing pay-to-win is a good thing, and if 'achieving' makes it a little harder, achievement gates are ok in my book.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks Sspitfire, I was honest and open about my thoughts and the thoughts of others. I wanted to bring this to the attention of the Devs as things to change. These changes may bring more people, Graphics would alone, but also to keep their revenue up when people decide to take a break from the game.

A thought on Graphics: I believe PFO was coded in DX9. I could be wrong. I am wondering why that is. If it was done in DX10 or 11, the graphics would have improved exponentially.

Goblin Squad Member

Graphics - I rather they not be super hardcore, because this is going to be an open world PvP system with formations, some people are going to have a harder time running it than others.

Achievements - They need more options for Achievements, across the board.

Classes - To be fair, I totally disagree with you on this one, as well as a lot of people. My reasoning is this, the ONLY thing in the game that requires you to have a Role level is your Feature Feat, that is it. You could take Cleric Armor to 14, and Couple that with level 6 Cantrips, and you don't actually have to have 1 level in either.

PvP - Not sure if I agree entirely with this, the only way I could see this working is if you did it through the Faction system, and have each Faction control a Crater Hex. It would be interesting dynamic for sure.

Crafting - I disagree, mainly because the Salvaging system is going to be implemented soon, as well as the repair systems. If there is too much gear being dropped its better to be a Combat Gathering than to take the skills, and if its dropping it takes out of the pockets of crafters that can repair.

Allow a Focus - I agree on this, I ran through the numbers quite a bit, and Fighters, Rogues, as well as Cleric will have to dip outside of their focus just to meet pre-reqs for their Roles.

Goblin Squad Member

Generally I totally disagree with the complaints about achievements and think that min/max PvPers with too much testosterone and Epeen will be bad enough as it is without encouraging them :D

However this I agree with:

Andius the Afflicted wrote:


I had hoped and even partially believed the achievements were things like hunting down and killing a powerful type of monster. Not killing 500 little puny ones.

Achievements like "ELITE xxxx Slayer" should be cheaper, maybe only needing a handful of kills depending on what you killed, to get the achievement point.


Edam wrote:
Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I had hoped and even partially believed the achievements were things like hunting down and killing a powerful type of monster. Not killing 500 little puny ones.
Achievements like "ELITE xxxx Slayer" should be cheaper, maybe only needing a handful of kills depending on what you killed, to get the achievement point.

I third this. But there is still a lot of time and progress to be made on the achievements system, so there is plenty to hope for :)

I estimated it would take about 125 hours to achieve Focus Expert 10 with a level 1 Cleric, assuming 30 minutes per 50 kills and grinding lvl 1 mobs. You could maybe cut it down to 75 hours if you were using a better weapon and had more training with it.

But you'd have to do that roughly 2.2 times (165-275 hours)to make your 121 CP. For someone who doesn't mind PvE, this is not an issue at all. For someone who only wants to do PvP, they are looking at having to log 2-3 hours per week to keep on top of achievements- which is kind of a grind, yeah.

It is also worth noting that Player kills will count towards weapon achievements and there is no reason not to expect (or ask) GW to introduce PvP based Adventure achievements (like cumulative damage done to player buildings) and further diversifying, in a PvP friendly way, Arcane, Divine and Subterfuge achievements can be met. But even with those things, a strictly PvP'er will still find themselves stomping goblins from time to time, like it or not.

Goblin Squad Member

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I will say I despise the current achievement system. Some of them remind me of that horrible quest in Vanilla WoW where you had to gather 100 feathers and 100 furs or something from mobs and they didn't drop every time. Mindless, meaningless, empty gameplay that leaves me frustrated and grumpy; let's do better on this particular aspect Goblinworks.

Sandbox games are not supposed to have these kind of gimmicks?


Urman wrote:
celestialiar wrote:
I agree that coming back after 6 months would make you wanna shoot yourself, to do all of that 'achieving.'

I think that 'achieving' is actually a pretty clever mechanic. It adds burdens to pay-to-win.

- A player with deep pockets can buy a subscription and gather xp for 6 months, 2 years, whatever. The character isn't complete though, not without the player actually playing for some time.

- A player with deep pockets could alternatively buy a character from another player, a character that has been pre-played and all of those achievements have been earned (maybe even earned, but not spent. Perhaps there is a market...). But Deeppocket's character will have a harder time gaining Influence for his company, because the player that did the grinding has already garnered the easy achievements - and the grinder's company got the Influence.

I think reducing pay-to-win is a good thing, and if 'achieving' makes it a little harder, achievement gates are ok in my book.

Well devil's advocate... if they buy from mr cash store they are gonna get gains regardless. Especially if those items stay soul threaded.

I don't know if I'd call that pay to win though, in terms of experience. That's how they made the game. They're not gonna be more powerful than someone who played, even without achievements. The only possible advantage they have is waiting until more streamlined builds are in the game.

It'd make more sense to have experience gain but allow you to supplement it with action.

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph wrote:
...meaningless...

Remember it's meaningless only now, until we get our Settlements. Once we're supporting those, we'll have increasingly desperate need to clear out escalations, and those aren't quick-and-easy, as we've seen in Adventure Time.

Lots of everyone's Achievement-gating will disappear, as Ryan's said more than once, in the course of normal game-play, while you're doing the same thing--killing lots of monsters--for completely different reasons. Human psychology will, generally, fill the gap and keep most of us from feeling bored.

Goblin Squad Member

I still say I would rather do achievements that have me banding together with people to take down a single escalation boss, than 1000 escalation peons.

Goblin Squad Member

If you're not in the group that takes down that one monster, you'd get no kill-credit. Imagine the screaming that'll happen then.

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
Edam wrote:
Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I had hoped and even partially believed the achievements were things like hunting down and killing a powerful type of monster. Not killing 500 little puny ones.
Achievements like "ELITE xxxx Slayer" should be cheaper, maybe only needing a handful of kills depending on what you killed, to get the achievement point.

I third this. But there is still a lot of time and progress to be made on the achievements system, so there is plenty to hope for :)

I estimated it would take about 125 hours to achieve Focus Expert 10 with a level 1 Cleric, assuming 30 minutes per 50 kills and grinding lvl 1 mobs. You could maybe cut it down to 75 hours if you were using a better weapon and had more training with it.

But you'd have to do that roughly 2.2 times (165-275 hours)to make your 121 CP. For someone who doesn't mind PvE, this is not an issue at all. For someone who only wants to do PvP, they are looking at having to log 2-3 hours per week to keep on top of achievements- which is kind of a grind, yeah.

It is also worth noting that Player kills will count towards weapon achievements and there is no reason not to expect (or ask) GW to introduce PvP based Adventure achievements (like cumulative damage done to player buildings) and further diversifying, in a PvP friendly way, Arcane, Divine and Subterfuge achievements can be met. But even with those things, a strictly PvP'er will still find themselves stomping goblins from time to time, like it or not.

I am assuming that there will be PvP achievements connected with the War of towers.

Of course PvP seems to be envisaged more in terms of inter-settlement wars rather than killing random solo gatherers for tears so I would not hold out hope for random ganking to lead to much in the way of achievements.

I have a rather ironic prediction. Once functional PvP achievements are implemented the same PvP people currently wanting the PvE kill achievement tasks simplified will suddenly turn around and want them nerfed back to worse then they are right now.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'm sorry, have to agree with all of Xeen's points.

As I recall, the entire reason I even threw my hundred dollars into the crowd funding campaign in the first place was the promise of "No Grinding"...

You can call it Achievements if you want to but it's still grinding.

There's a saying "You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd"

If I have to grind my way to the top, I'm not playing this game, period.

I will be placing my account for sale, soon if this nonsense continues.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
If you're not in the group that takes down that one monster, you'd get no kill-credit. Imagine the screaming that'll happen then.

If the maximum group size is under 200 by the time we are half a year into the game I'll consider that a serious failing on their part.

Goblin Squad Member

Tiberius Rose wrote:

I'm sorry, have to agree with all of Xeen's points.

As I recall, the entire reason I even threw my hundred dollars into the crowd funding campaign in the first place was the promise of "No Grinding"...

You can call it Achievements if you want to but it's still grinding.

There's a saying "You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd"

If I have to grind my way to the top, I'm not playing this game, period.

I will be placing my account for sale, soon if this nonsense continues.

I have been in Grindy games, this game doesn't feel that grindy at all. Once they get in a few more different types of Achievements, it will probably feel better, as you won't actually need to get to 6500 kills.

I can think of a lot of games, Darkfall (original) for one, that required a lot more grind.

Goblin Squad Member

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Most of the OP can be adjusted in code to find a happy medium were everyone can think of changes that benefit them more but most can live with it. The issue of classes and "roles" is going to makes Joe off the street feel lied to and turn off a lot of players before they're around long enough to pick up any nuance, I think.

A truly classless system has your character casting fireballs and cleaving with a giant 2-hander then stealthing around in light armor to cast Cure spell on yourself all at the full strength you've trained. You only need time to train those abilities out of a fightery class of skills, bardish, wizardy, and clericy class of skills. That's not this keyword-matching system.

Heck a lot of people might not make it past: "They just changed the word class to role. THAT is supposed to make it classless?". Role to MMO players already meant your objective- doing damage, tanking, healing, controlling, etc. and the classes provided the specific ethos and flavor of how you achieved that objective (Rift even has rogue tanking skills). Pathfinder Online still has the class names, there are still classes of abilities: martial, arcane, subterfuge, divine. Achievements are split that way, NPC and protosettlements are districted that way, classes are still very prevalent on the face and in the roots of the game.

***But our role isn't to "be divine" or "be martial" our roles are still tanking and supporting and doing damage. The ways we get those roles fulfilled change depending on the class of skills we're using whether it be fighter's affinity for absorbing hits while waiting to take advantage of opportunities or thieves' knack at evasion and leaving you flat-footed to strike a fierce blow or wizard's compulsion to AOE everything in sight friend or foe.

We don't have a targeting window and that's so different from other MMOs but in a bad way because those are very useful in combat. Forcing a redefinition of well-established game terminology and touting it as a selling point just to play your game is different in a bad way that puts an unnecessary obstacle between GW and their potential customers. This is the most serious problem I see that can't be coded away with enough time.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
If the maximum group size is under 200 by the time we are half a year into the game I'll consider that a serious failing on their part.

I assume you're talking about some group-structure along the lines of "groups of groups"? Otherwise, I can't think of a control scheme where I, as a Cleric, could quickly select and heal character number 136 in my 200-man group; I dread thinking of the on-screen group-window :-).

With 200-man groups, though, how does one avoid the scenario of someone sitting in a safe corner of a hex, collecting the Achievement-benefits of his extended group-mates' efforts elsewhere, without contributing himself?

Goblin Squad Member

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TEO Cheatle wrote:
Tiberius Rose wrote:

I'm sorry, have to agree with all of Xeen's points.

As I recall, the entire reason I even threw my hundred dollars into the crowd funding campaign in the first place was the promise of "No Grinding"...

You can call it Achievements if you want to but it's still grinding.

There's a saying "You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd"

If I have to grind my way to the top, I'm not playing this game, period.

I will be placing my account for sale, soon if this nonsense continues.

I have been in Grindy games, this game doesn't feel that grindy at all. Once they get in a few more different types of Achievements, it will probably feel better, as you won't actually need to get to 6500 kills.

I can think of a lot of games, Darkfall (original) for one, that required a lot more grind.

If I step into an escalation and it says 0/250 kills I'm sorry but it gives me a terrible sense of déjà vu. Honestly when hearing of PO I thought the PvE was going to be more akin with Ultima Online or Darkfall; hunting inside dungeons, finding random awesome camps of mobs, adventuring. But, what I'm currently seeing is PvE is dominated by a sole gimmick deemed "escalations." It's just not exciting at all and doesn't make me feel like I'm in a vibrant virtual world waiting for me to explore.

This is my opinion and I want developers to know how I feel.

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
Heck a lot of people might not make it past: "They just changed the word class to role. THAT is supposed to make it classless?".

At some point, we're going to have to acknowledge that there are going to be people who aren't interested in PFO, whatever the reason. EVE, the closest comparator to PFO, doesn't appeal to everyone, nor does it try to; PFO, I believe, will be no different.

Goblinworks will, of course, be the ones to determine to which sections of the gaming audience they don't spend much time or effort marketing, but we, as players, might help our discussions by also starting to think of the potential audience as something less than "everyone". My initial winnowing-suggestion: anyone who's unwilling or unable to look into PFO, from the outside, beyond a superficial level is unlikely to discover a diamond-in-the-rough, as that very front-end unwillingness/inability may very well limit his ability to delve successfully into the quite-complex game we're helping develop.


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I honestly don't believe any vibrancy is going to come from PvE AI content, so I hope the (Devs) don't spend too much time than is necessary trying to do that.

The vibrancy is going to come from the players in the game, impacting the world and doing things interactively because there is a reason to do so.

In PFO, we the players will be the game content, and we'll be the creators of game content as well. That is fundamentally how a sandbox works.

Sure there is stuff in the game world that is not a player, but it can never be as interesting as something a player might do.

Goblin Squad Member

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Overarching all of this I find myself with a bottom line useful for evaluating arguments. That bottom line is whether this or that argument will lead to more frequently meaningless murder, or does it promote community interests and thus more 'meaningful' community warfare?

Proposing to remove achievements without a replacement system does not promote community, and removes a system intended to regulate individual character power. Personal power corrupts but community power works.

Regulation is often disliked by those who like personal power. That dislike is or should be an expected outcome. That manifest and vocal dislike is essentially a product of exactly the dissuasive influence of the game design that is intended to channel behavior into constructive and away from destructive play.

You should by now have realized I don't mind saying things some folks don't want to hear. Fact is I find myself rankled by the achievement system too. Nevertheless it looks like the system is Working As Intended (WAI) to me.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || GenAknosc wrote:
...I hope the (Devs) don't spend too much time than is necessary...

You win :-).

The AI is going to be stupid and simple for a long time. We plan to invest as little into PvE as necessary. Crowdforging will define "necessary".

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Overarching all of this I find myself with a bottom line useful for evaluating arguments. That bottom line is whether this or that argument will lead to more frequently meaningless murder, or does it promote community interests and thus more 'meaningful' community warfare?

That kind of decision is better left to those who have actually experienced games where frequent meaningless murder and meaningful warfare take place. We're the ones who have seen the systems those games used and recognized how and why they failed.

I see many of the same problems I talked about there emerging in our current system and I've seen you backing the systems that intensify them.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Doc || GenAknosc wrote:
...I hope the (Devs) don't spend too much time than is necessary...
Ryan Dancey wrote:
The AI is going to be stupid and simple for a long time. We plan to invest as little into PvE as necessary. Crowdforging will define "necessary".

The AI can be stupid, but stupid doesn't automatically morph into an escalation system, kill 100 rat tasks and/or achievements. PvE was also "stupid" in Ultima Online and Darkfall but the way it was implemented made it interesting; escalations combined with achievements aren't interesting.

tl;dr
Repeating over and over again that the devs said PvE would be simple has nothing to do with escalations and achievements. PvE can be simple and not include either of those systems.

Goblin Squad Member

Updates to OP

Grinding and Focus - I have hit a wall with most of my characters. My Rogue and fighter cannot advance because of attributes. So I am forced to grind another class if I want to advance.

Achievements - Cannot advance my crafter because of the gating effect which is supposed to only put a stop on people who do not play.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Being wrote:
Overarching all of this I find myself with a bottom line useful for evaluating arguments. That bottom line is whether this or that argument will lead to more frequently meaningless murder, or does it promote community interests and thus more 'meaningful' community warfare?
That kind of decision is better left to those who have actually experienced games where frequent meaningless murder and meaningful warfare take place.

It isn't something I expect you to take to heart, but I am well experienced in games where frequent meaningless murder take place and meaningful warfare take place. I have been active in online gaming since gaming went online and we used 1200 baud modems.

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
We're the ones who have seen the systems those games used and recognized how and why they failed.
You are citing your own reviews as authoritative? How... humble of you.
Andius the Afflicted wrote:
I see many of the same problems I talked about there emerging in our current system and I've seen you backing the systems that intensify them.

Since you remain you, of course you still see things the same way. Where is your point, Andius?

Goblin Squad Member

It would be interesting to know just how hardcore these unnamed games were. Clearly you haven't taken any meaningful experience from them or learned from their mistakes. That could be a problem with you and not the games though.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius the Afflicted wrote:
It would be interesting to know just how hardcore these unnamed games were. Clearly you haven't taken any meaningful experience from them or learned from their mistakes. That could be a problem with you and not the games though.

Heh, your idea of 'meaningful' is pretty suspect. Dragonrealms (did not feature warfare but meaningless PVP was plentiful), Meridian 59, DAoC, AoC, some Planetside2.. some I don't recall the names of. One of those was a AAA title that I don't see on the MMORPG list. It was an Ubisoft title. I'll try to find it. Shadow-something maybe? Ah: Shadpwbane.

But really, Andius, ask yourself whether I care about your opinion of 'hardcore' and why you are so convinced that you quoting yourself equates to 'authority'?


Dragonrealms had extremely little PvP in the decade that I played it and it was generally meaningful when it happened (or at least the retaliation was).

You might be referring to Shadowbane, which was an early attempt at an open-world PvP MMORPG that had major technical issues that crippled the game and caused it to fail shortly after release. (Which is one of my major concerns with PFO.)

However, none of the games you've listed are modern open-world PvP sandboxes games like Darkfall or Mortal Online. Most of MMORPG development were themeparks. Some, like DAoC, AoC, and Warhammer had PvP focus, but these games often lacked any real consequences or reasons for PvP, and were usually realm(faction)-based. AoC (which I did not play) had was FFA PvP, but none of the others did, unless you played on the 1 FFA PvP server in DAoC.

However, this is (was) an excellent thread that Xeen started to talk about serious issues. Could we please continue to talk about the issues Xeen has brought up instead of devolving this into a contest of who's played what and therefor has more valid input?

Goblin Squad Member

When I played Dragnrealms there were a few bandits who delighted in murdering new players. This was back when it was offered through AoL. I have played it since and, yes, I don't recall much PvP in those recent excursions but the crafting game was much better.

Yeah I played a little darkfall and it wasn't very impressive either.

What 'real' reasons or consequences for PvP did you find in Darkfall? I agree that talking about the OP was far more beneficial than talking about Andius.


I played in the AoL days and much later in the internet days. There were a few murderous bandits, but they were just a few, and the rest of the player-base generaly responded VERY strongly in retaliation.

Darkfall and Mortal both had consequences in terms of loss of gear, and, more importantly, loss of territory. Most of the PvP was meaningless murder, because there were no negative consequences to initiating and winning any PvP fight you could find, but there were plenty of negative consequences to losing one.

However, I don't believe that a desire to remove the "grindy-ness" from an achievement gate to necessarily be a wish to remove the gate entirely. A few posters have suggested this, but most are just asking to remove the grind feeling rather than the gate itself. We already have a time-based gate, which I agree with. If GW also desires a play-based gate, then we should have a discussion as a community of what that gate will look like. I absolutely agree that it's too limiting right now (and the killing blow requirement is unacceptable). I do think that killing a player should count the same as killing a mob for a party to gain achievement-credit. However, I don't foresee enough PvP for that to be a viable leveling method right now.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'd really like to see an "all of the above" approach taken to achievements. In other word a huge variety of achievements that can be earned in many different ways. One player can earn them by grinding a ton of peon monsters while anther gets it hunting a boss monster and another gets it PvPing.

But personally I do agree with Mbando. Give people other reasons to earn achievements. Keep them in the game but IMO all the arguments for the need to use them (or any other system) as a 2nd gate seem a bit hollow.

Goblin Squad Member

Leithlen wrote:
I played in the AoL days and much later in the internet days. There were a few murderous bandits, but they were just a few, and the rest of the player-base generaly responded VERY strongly in retaliation.
The community was great in those days there, I agree, and the PvP was indeed rare (though above I said 'plentiful' I was wrong), but for me that rarity accentuated it, and even though the great majority was alert and would respond to the few predators the community was also unable to effectively police the game either. That is why I am so interested in seeing the result of the incentive/disincentive mechanics of this design and should explain why I am loath to change the design in these integral ways until we know more about the complete design.
Leithlen wrote:
However, I don't believe that a desire to remove the "grindy-ness" from an achievement gate to necessarily be a wish to remove the gate entirely. A few posters have suggested this, but most are just asking to remove the grind feeling rather than the gate itself. We already have a time-based gate, which I agree with. If GW also desires a play-based gate, then we should have a discussion as a community of what that gate will look like. I absolutely agree that it's too limiting right now (and the killing blow requirement is unacceptable). I do think that killing a player should count the same as killing a mob for a party to gain achievement-credit. However, I don't foresee enough PvP for that to be a viable leveling method right now.

I suspect there will be plenty of PvP once the community-based economy has developed to where communities are competing for resources.

And of course I will see plenty of PvP quite a bit earlier than most, unless I miss my mark.

Goblin Squad Member

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Andius the Afflicted wrote:
...a huge variety of achievements that can be earned in many different ways.

This definitely sounds the way to go. I can't recall any dev-quotes saying this isn't their intention; perhaps we began this conversation prematurely.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:

Updates to OP

Grinding and Focus - I have hit a wall with most of my characters. My Rogue and fighter cannot advance because of attributes. So I am forced to grind another class if I want to advance.

Achievements - Cannot advance my crafter because of the gating effect which is supposed to only put a stop on people who do not play.

Xeen: The crafter is easy - several solutions to get achievments

a) The auction house - go for + recipes. They might be expensive - but if you have a grinder as alt, then you don't mind some 200-500 copper which buys you a +2 or +3 recipe and which is the equivalent of 3 or 4 achievement points
b) There are simple ways to gain achievements. Sawyer level 1, 5 pine, 5 yew = 2 achievement points
c) Work together with other people and ask for recipes - sometimes people donate them - best to be in TK for that

Can't help you with the rogue / fighter - but the rest of the family which doesn't play much has no problems with gating as crafters - as I give them the hand up / guide them / organize raw materials / organize recipes.

Gating as crafter is something that needs teamwork. I saw a TEO Bankbot which seems to do on a bigger scale what I do locally with my family and our three accounts.

As a solo player you have to grind as crafter. But this isn't supposed to be a solo game.

Goblin Squad Member

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Thod wrote:
Xeen wrote:
Achievements - Cannot advance my crafter because of the gating effect which is supposed to only put a stop on people who do not play.

Xeen: The crafter is easy - several solutions to get achievments

a) The auction house - go for + recipes. They might be expensive - but if you have a grinder as alt, then you don't mind some 200-500 copper which buys you a +2 or +3 recipe and which is the equivalent of 3 or 4 achievement points
b) There are simple ways to gain achievements. Sawyer level 1, 5 pine, 5 yew = 2 achievement points
c) Work together with other people and ask for recipes - sometimes people donate them - best to be in TK for that

I think one of the hurdles to advancing as a crafter is possibly the lack of visibility on which are common or uncommon recipes. While the information is out there on spreadsheets, I'd rather the information be available in game, perhaps simply in the tool tips for starters.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
Thod wrote:
Xeen wrote:
Achievements - Cannot advance my crafter because of the gating effect which is supposed to only put a stop on people who do not play.

Xeen: The crafter is easy - several solutions to get achievments

a) The auction house - go for + recipes. They might be expensive - but if you have a grinder as alt, then you don't mind some 200-500 copper which buys you a +2 or +3 recipe and which is the equivalent of 3 or 4 achievement points
b) There are simple ways to gain achievements. Sawyer level 1, 5 pine, 5 yew = 2 achievement points
c) Work together with other people and ask for recipes - sometimes people donate them - best to be in TK for that

I think one of the hurdles to advancing as a crafter is possibly the lack of visibility on which are common or uncommon recipes. While the information is out there on spreadsheets, I'd rather the information be available in game, perhaps simply in the tool tips for starters.

This would help tremendously. In general, common recipes are the ones that first appear when you progress to a new crafting rank. The trouble is that after you learn a few recipes, it's hard to remember which ones the trainer gave you, vs which ones you found or bought.

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:
Xeen wrote:

Updates to OP

Grinding and Focus - I have hit a wall with most of my characters. My Rogue and fighter cannot advance because of attributes. So I am forced to grind another class if I want to advance.

Achievements - Cannot advance my crafter because of the gating effect which is supposed to only put a stop on people who do not play.

Xeen: The crafter is easy - several solutions to get achievments

a) The auction house - go for + recipes. They might be expensive - but if you have a grinder as alt, then you don't mind some 200-500 copper which buys you a +2 or +3 recipe and which is the equivalent of 3 or 4 achievement points
b) There are simple ways to gain achievements. Sawyer level 1, 5 pine, 5 yew = 2 achievement points
c) Work together with other people and ask for recipes - sometimes people donate them - best to be in TK for that

Can't help you with the rogue / fighter - but the rest of the family which doesn't play much has no problems with gating as crafters - as I give them the hand up / guide them / organize raw materials / organize recipes.

Gating as crafter is something that needs teamwork. I saw a TEO Bankbot which seems to do on a bigger scale what I do locally with my family and our three accounts.

As a solo player you have to grind as crafter. But this isn't supposed to be a solo game.

Its not the achievement points that are the problem. Its the Uncommon part. I was on PFO HQ and found that I have crafted at least one uncommon but still did not get the achievement, so will be bug reporting it.

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