So, I'm playing in a campaign, and it's fun. It really is. But there is this ONE player who is not just min-maxing, but doing it stupidly. Bard/Barbarian/Chevalier/maybe something else. He's got a courageous +4 weapon, constantly enlarged with potions, does obscene amounts of damage, and has a stupid high amount of HP to boot.
The GM has tried working with him, I think, but he just won't change. Fights essentially become a 'lets just sit here while he does everything and hits like -50 HP and survives'.
My big question is this: at 12th level, what is the MAXIMUM negative HP a PC could have and not be DEAD dead? I don't want to be the guy who asks to browse his sheet, but I'm just curious as to how he is doing this. EDIT: I believe his con is only a +4.
The standard is "you die when you reach negative hit points equal to your Constitutions core." Level doesn't normally come into it.
So if he has a +4 modifier from his Constitution score, that means he has an 18 or 19 and should be instantly killed upon reaching -18 or -19 hit points.
However, there are plenty of abilities out there that extend that range.
For example, humans can get an alternate racial trait called Heart of the Wilderness, which extends it by 1 for every two character levels, so if he is 12th-level, that could mean he is capable of surviving to -24 or -25 hit points.
And again, he could have other abilities which extend it beyond that.
If you can post it, we'll audit the character sheet.
That said the multi-classing described sounds sub optimal. Oh and moderately optimised barbarians with sensible weapon enchantments will dish out a LOT of damage at that level.
And again, he could have other abilities which extend it beyond that.
I was looking for that, yeah. I mentioned the level just for any pre-reqs. Do you know, off hand, of any abilities that would extend it extremely deep into the negative? He IS Human, and he may have that trait.
I was looking for that, yeah. I mentioned the level just for any pre-reqs. Do you know, off hand, of any abilities that would extend it extremely deep into the negative? He IS Human, and he may have that trait.And again, he could have other abilities which extend it beyond that.
+4 Courageous weapon at 12th level?
That might be part of the problem right there...
One way to approach it is to ask him to explain it. Tell him you are thinking of playing a barbarian next game and you just want to understand how he does it.
If you are worried he is either deliberately cheating or misread the rules raise your concerns to the gm, and talk about the effects this player is having on the atmosphere of the game. Afterall the point is for everyone to have fun. If someone is being disruptive, talk it out as if you were, say a group of friends trying to play a game together.
I was looking for that, yeah. I mentioned the level just for any pre-reqs. Do you know, off hand, of any abilities that would extend it extremely deep into the negative? He IS Human, and he may have that trait.And again, he could have other abilities which extend it beyond that.
+4 Courageous weapon at 12th level?
That might be part of the problem right there...
It's a Kingmaker-style campaign, and he has the crafting feats. He made it himself.
And I HAVE mentioned this to the GM, but he is a bit of a pushover.
If the character is a half-orc, they might have the Tenacious Survivor feat. The feat requires the Endurance and Die Hard feats. Keep track of what feats he regularly uses, you might be able to tell if there are some not evident.
The feat allows them to die and provided they get healing quickly enough they can come back from death. It still applies a negative level when this happens.
If the character is a half-orc, they might have the Tenacious Survivor feat. The feat requires the Endurance and Die Hard feats. Keep track of what feats he regularly uses, you might be able to tell if there are some not evident.
The feat allows them to die and provided they get healing quickly enough they can come back from death. It still applies a negative level when this happens.
He is definitely human.
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In general, I find that dealing with a "hyper munchkin" is pretty straight forward. If you don't feel comfortable auditing a fellow player's character, maybe you could get the GM to do it. After all, as the referee of the game it's the GM's job to make sure everyone is playing by the same rules and to keep an eye out for mistakes, misunderstandings, and cheaters.
If there is some discrepancy somewhere, then perhaps fixing it will bring the character back in line with the rest of the party.
However, if all of his i's are dotted and all his t's seem to be crossed, then he may just have a higher level of system mastery than the rest of you. If that is the case, then you can all either approach him out of game and discuss how the power gap has become disruptive to the rest of the group's fun. Perhaps he could tone down his character and allow some of the rest of you to enjoy some more of the adventuring lime light. Alternatively, perhaps he could advise you guys on improving your characters to be more up to his level. Perhaps you would enjoy having a host of really powerful characters? Who knows?
The important thing, though, is to talk it over like responsible adults. You all came together to have fun together, so that's what you should all be working towards. Don't do anything childish, antagonistic, or passive-aggressive like killing his character in-game. That will only make more problems then it solves.
EDIT: Had to write the above a second time, because Paizo ate my post. The first was much more involved and well written I think. Oh well...
I'll specify: We're all pretty min-maxed out. It's more or less his 'attitude' about it.
We're all experienced players, but something about HOW he does it makes it so grating. To be honest, I don't know if talking to him about it any more would help. The GM tried. He's getting exasperated by it to the point of probably going to try to kill the PC specifically, which I don't agree with, but I can't pretend it isn't a nice idea.
I'll specify: We're all pretty min-maxed out. It's more or less his 'attitude' about it.
We're all experienced players, but something about HOW he does it makes it so grating. To be honest, I don't know if talking to him about it any more would help. The GM tried. He's getting exasperated by it to the point of probably going to try to kill the PC specifically, which I don't agree with, but I can't pretend it isn't a nice idea.
Can't recommend that. The GM needs to deal with an out-of-game problem with an out-of-game solution, aka 'talk to the guy'. All killing the PC will do is encourage him to be a bigger pain in the butt next time.
If he continues to act like a jerk, then he should simply be disinvited from the group.
I'll specify: We're all pretty min-maxed out. It's more or less his 'attitude' about it.
We're all experienced players, but something about HOW he does it makes it so grating. To be honest, I don't know if talking to him about it any more would help. The GM tried. He's getting exasperated by it to the point of probably going to try to kill the PC specifically, which I don't agree with, but I can't pretend it isn't a nice idea.
You're not exactly describing what it is he seems to be doing wrong. Just that you all don't like it, whatever "it" is.
How exactly is he being grating on the group? We're going to need to know more if you want some serious advice.
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I'll specify: We're all pretty min-maxed out. It's more or less his 'attitude' about it.
If that's true then why does it happen that...
Fights essentially become a 'lets just sit here while he does everything and hits like -50 HP and survives'..
Assuming you're all equally min-maxed, or at least ball-park the same level, why doesn't the GM just throw meaner things at you? That way you'd all have to work together again.
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If it's not an exaggeration, -50 HP and alive seems... questionable for a Barbarian. He could well have the Deathless Initiate feat tree, Raging Vitality, etc but surviving that low seems odd. About the only people who are able to do that are Fighters using the Orc FCB to get an insane Con for deciding when they die, then with the Deathless feats they can easily pull off a stunt like this.
Perhaps he's using a build like STR Rangers in the thread below, the sheer amount of DR and damage converted to non lethal might make it seem he's dropping that low when he isn't actually?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ohy8?Improved-Stalwart-HalfOrc-Deathless-Barba rian
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just audit his sheet. everyone is ignoring the biggest problem. HE CANNOT GO NEGATIVE 50 HP AND LIVE. also once he is negative he will be taking partial actions with penalties. if he is stronger than all of you while negative then you are all built very poorly or he is not built correctly.
i would give this somewhere in the realm of 85% chance he is wrong. either by misunderstanding or cheesing abilities to fit his whims. a level 12 half orc fighter built to fight at negative hm can go to a negative score equal to (con score+(2*level)) even at 18 con that is 18+24 so 42 negative hp. but that is pure fighter with the orc favored class bonus for fighter. your hodge-podge build should not be able to even touch 50 without being paste on the battle field.
every time i see one of these posts the obvious answer is AUDIT THE SHEET. if you cannot do that you will not solve your problem. if your dm will not do that then get used to playing like this. if you guys are min maxers you should have an above average understanding of the game and your characters should stand up to the scrutiny of an audit.
+4 Courageous weapon at 12th level?
That might be part of the problem right there...
It's a Kingmaker-style campaign, and he has the crafting feats. He made it himself.
And I HAVE mentioned this to the GM, but he is a bit of a pushover.
A level 12 cannot craft a +4 weapon, much less one with Courageous. Your friend and/or GM are breakin' dem rules.
A level 12 cannot craft a +4 weapon, much less one with Courageous. Your friend and/or GM are breakin' dem rules.+4 Courageous weapon at 12th level?
That might be part of the problem right there...
It's a Kingmaker-style campaign, and he has the crafting feats. He made it himself.
And I HAVE mentioned this to the GM, but he is a bit of a pushover.
The caster level requirement per enhancement bonus can be ignored like most other crafting prerequisites by adding +5 to the DC. There's a FAQ about it.
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When it comes to gaming groups, the good of the many outweigh the good of the one. As a PFS event coordinator I had the incredibly difficult job of once asking a player not to come back because despite multiple people's best efforts to work with him, he was simply causing every table he would be at to not have fun.
A level 12 cannot craft a +4 weapon, much less one with Courageous. Your friend and/or GM are breakin' dem rules.+4 Courageous weapon at 12th level?
That might be part of the problem right there...
It's a Kingmaker-style campaign, and he has the crafting feats. He made it himself.
And I HAVE mentioned this to the GM, but he is a bit of a pushover.
????
CL 3 x Enhancement bonus. Level 12 is actually the norm. Courageous is CL 3 to make.
It's a +5 weapon with a cost of 25k to craft. He definitely qualifies for the weapon at level 12 if he makes it himself.
It's more a display of how powerful Courageous and the Crafting feats are then anything else.
==Aelryinth
When it comes to gaming groups, the good of the many outweigh the good of the one. As a PFS event coordinator I had the incredibly difficult job of once asking a player not to come back because despite multiple people's best efforts to work with him, he was simply causing every table he would be at to not have fun.
What was he doing?
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When it comes to gaming groups, the good of the many outweigh the good of the one. As a PFS event coordinator I had the incredibly difficult job of once asking a player not to come back because despite multiple people's best efforts to work with him, he was simply causing every table he would be at to not have fun.What was he doing?
Constantly arguing with GMs, getting upset if he wasn't the center of attention in every situation (combat, NPC interactions, skill checks, etc), trying to play other characters players for them, belittling other players for their character/race/build/class/etc choices.
Constantly arguing with GMs, getting upset if he wasn't the center of attention in every situation (combat, NPC interactions, skill checks, etc), trying to play other characters players for them, belittling other players for their character/race/build/class/etc choices.When it comes to gaming groups, the good of the many outweigh the good of the one. As a PFS event coordinator I had the incredibly difficult job of once asking a player not to come back because despite multiple people's best efforts to work with him, he was simply causing every table he would be at to not have fun.What was he doing?
Well at least he was kind of a jerk.
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Well at least he was kind of a jerk.Constantly arguing with GMs, getting upset if he wasn't the center of attention in every situation (combat, NPC interactions, skill checks, etc), trying to play other characters players for them, belittling other players for their character/race/build/class/etc choices.When it comes to gaming groups, the good of the many outweigh the good of the one. As a PFS event coordinator I had the incredibly difficult job of once asking a player not to come back because despite multiple people's best efforts to work with him, he was simply causing every table he would be at to not have fun.What was he doing?
I personally thought he had some kind of social disorder (along the lines of Aspherger's).
I e-mailed him no less than 3 times with offers to help be a better player and have acceptable table-side manners, and he did not reply to any of them. He did send e-mails to the local VL complaining about his treatment, so I knew he was getting the e-mails. Ultimately it was the local VL, VC, and store owner who all agreed he should be banned.
This guy is likely taking advantage of the situation to rock socks, but a charger is not the end all be all of high powered characters. I'm skeptical his character is kosher, but it really doesn't matter if the DM allows it.
It is a DM's job to adjudicate a game. It's the DM's job to craft good encounters and challenge the party. This DM seems content letting your party crush all opposition.
The problem here is that as a player, you aren't happy. The DM doesn't seem unhappy. It's not really a players job to audit other players, unless there's active teaching going on.
You need to talk to the player and calmly ask them to tone it down. Alternatively, just win the campaign and start over. Alternatively, if the lot of you are competitive, start a "win most" contest. The charger is clearly taking tons of damage. Kill the enemies before he can.
If the group/GM allows any and all content that can be found, its going to be nearly impossible to understand what is going on due to the sheer number of options, alternates, etc.
If the GM isn't able/willing to review the character (-50 and live would be a whole shop full of red flags for me,) then the issue is more with an ineffective GM rather than a problem player.
Many players by their nature will try to make as powerful a character as possible. Heck, that's half the fun for them. Its like a logic problem; with the given constraints, what is the optimal outcome.
The GM is supposed to a.) make sure the players are following the rules, and b.) making sure everyone has an opportunity to have fun and participate.
In short, talk to the GM. The GM should call an audit for all characters. He can spend some time in-between sessions reviewing everyone's sheets to make sure everything is on the up and up. That way the player in question won't feel targeted and the GM can ascertain the truth.
just audit his sheet. everyone is ignoring the biggest problem. HE CANNOT GO NEGATIVE 50 HP AND LIVE.
I've been able to do better, particularly if it is a mythic game.
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Many players by their nature will try to make as powerful a character as possible. Heck, that's half the fun for them. Its like a logic problem; with the given constraints, what is the optimal outcome.
I will admit - I lean that way.
If that is the issue - suggest that he do what I do - and super-optimize a kinda dumb idea and/or support character.
That's what I do. It'd make me twitch NOT to optimize my character. But I also don't want to be THAT GUY. (heck - back in 3.5 I made a blind chracter - and no houserules to give him inherent blindsight)
If a PC frequently has to survive going to -50 hit points maybe the DM is the one who should ease up here.
That said, I have an Orc Dirty Fighter with a Con of 14 who dies at -22hp. At higher levels he might eventually be able to get down to -50 and survive. unfortunately he stays conscious the entire time, so he's much more likely to die than a PC who just gets knocked out.