But the WP has no Flurry at all, wouldn't the Pummeling chain take more time in order to be completed?
Eh, debatable.
A Pre-Nerf Sacred Fist attacked at +10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0, for 7+Str avg damage per hit
(The Sacred Fist is assumed to have PS, PC, and is spending 1 Ki to gain an extra Attack, and spent all 12 levels as an SF)
A TWF Unarmed Dex-based Warpriest attacks at +9/+9/+4/+4/-1, for 7.5+Dex avg damage
[i](The Warpriest is assumed to have GWF and WS)
The Sacred Fist required Master of Many Styles to get Pummeling Style at lv1; otherwise, you had to wait to lv6.
And in order to get Pummeling Style & Charge early, you'd have to forgo the extra damage dice from leveling later, so its Flurry would be:
+9/+9/+9/+4/+4 with an average of 5.5+Str damage per hit.
So... take your pick: Pummeling Style/Charge early, or extra damage in the long run.
NOW... well, now they're just right boned...
A Post-Nerf Sacred Fist attacks at +6/+6/+6/+1/+1 for 5.5+Str avg damage per attack
That's IF they still take Master of Many Styles to get Pummeling Style and Charge early. That's fairly crippling, and I think the Devs severely underestimated just how useful the Weapon Focus/Specialization feat tree actually is, and how much it helped the base Warpriest play on even ground with the Sacred Fist, especially with how often SF was combined with MoMS.
On the other hand, if the Sacred Fist uses the Unchained Monk's Flurry (it probably can't, but let's just throw it a bone), and it never takes ANY levels of Master of Many Styles, its Flurry is:
+9/+9/+9/+9/+4 for 7+Str damage
So... yeah. That's actually fairly on-par with a basic Warpriest, and probably churns out a LITTLE bit more damage unarmed than the Warpriest, at that.
So, I guess the thing to do then is be a nice DM and let your SFs Flurry like an Unchained Monk, 'cause otherwise they are just pretty dang beaten down by their Base Warpriest cousin's superior accuracy and damage output.
Actually, Sacred Fist qualifies for Pummeling Style at first before and after the nerf. The requirement is Flurry of Blows OR Brawler's Flurry OR BAB 6, and you have Flurry. They need a MoMS dip to get Pummeling Charge.
Huh... sonuvab+**! - you're right. I'm used to focusing on just the BAB+6 for the base Warpriest. Well, the SF isn't SO bad-off, I guess.
Still not in a great spot, though; you're still attacking at +6/+6/+6/+1/+1 for 5.5+Str at lv12, which is pretty substantially worse than what the Warpriest is doing (unless the Warpriest DOESN'T take GWF and WS, which is like playing an Archer and NOT taking Precise Shot - you just don't do that).
Also since flurry is lvl dependent, and not bab depended, it means that still, at sf lvl 8 you get the 2nd extra flurry attack.
Yeah, but the Warpriest gains an extra Attack at lv6 from TWF.
So at lv8:
WP 8 is +5/+5/+0/+0 (6.5+Dex DPH)
SF 8 is +4/+4/+4/-1/-1 (5.5+Str DPH)
MoMS 1/SF 7 is +3/+3/+3 (4.5+Str DPH)
MoMS 2/SF6 is +3/+3/+3 (4.5+Str DPH)
Again, this is presupposing that a WP has Weapon Spec - there's really very little to no reasons NOT to, especially if you're going Unarmed.
The Warpriest has very little incentive to take MoMS, though, since it'll gain more attacks over time without it, and taking MoMS only really serves to slow its progression as a Fighter (which is where lots of its strength comes from).
Why wouldn't the Sacred Fist be Dex-based, too? 4000 gp for an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists is a steal, and you could always get Piranha Strike rather than Power Attack.
Two Words: Righteous. Might.
It gets free Two-Weapon Fighting, and there are a LOT more things that pump Strength, so it follows the Ranger's and Monk's example and focuses on Str rather than Dex. In particular, things that increase the Sacred Fists's size not only give it an increase to Damage Dice, they also pump its Strength, giving it a DOUBLE boost to effectiveness whenever it does something like that.
The Warpriest, being Dex-based, suffers from the Paradox that size-changing for it is a Zero-Sum Value - increasing its size also increases its Damage Dice, while simultaneously lowering its Dex, making the total gains pretty nil. Conversely, SHRINKING a Warpriest increases its Dex, accuracy, and Armor pretty substantially, but also lowers its Damage Dice, so, again, the gains are basically nixed.
The Warpriest can pump its Dex through things like spells, but there're far, far more spells that pump Str than Dex.
So, in a bubble, the Unarmed Warpriest being based on Dex comes out better than the SF.
But, when the SF starts doing tricks like growing, the Warpriest starts to lose its edge. Pre-Nerf, the Warpriest completely lost that fight in time, but now the Warpriest can still just about tie the SF - it just has to try a LOT harder than the SF does, though.
That's why a Natural Weapons Warpriest is actually the better counter to the SF - if the Warpriest can't beat the SF out for shear power-per-hit, it can at least spam the living hell out of LOTS of Natural Attacks in conjunction with Unarmed Attacks to beat out the SF for damage.
This was true even pre-Nerfing, and now the difference in damage output is just embarrassingly obvious.
I wonder if an unarmed cleric could beat the SF in his game too.
:v
With Domain Strike, it's possible. Staggering Fist + Domain Strike Repose can let you Punch someone asleep in one hit.I wonder if an unarmed cleric could beat the SF in his game too.
:v
Yeah, at that point, I wonder if the only thing a Sacred Fist would have in defense is a hopefully-high-enough AC.
That and possibly high-enough Fort & Will saves to stave off either the Repose ability or Staggering Fist, but... yeah.
It's kinda sad that the Cleric can set all this up by lv5, while the SF is stuck doing... whatever it's doing at lv5.
At least the Warpriest has 6 Feats up by level 5, plus spells.
It's kinda sad that the Cleric can set all this up by lv5, while the SF is stuck doing... whatever it's doing at lv5.
It's unlikely a Cleric can afford Conductive unarmed strikes at 5.
Assuming they could though, at level 5 the Sacred Fist has two unarmed flurry attacks and fervor for swift-action buffing and swift-action cure wounds. The Cleric had better hope that they consistently land their 1-round sleep effect with their one punch per round, and that two rounds of sleep (which is all they get when burning 3/round) are enough.
It's kinda sad that the Cleric can set all this up by lv5, while the SF is stuck doing... whatever it's doing at lv5.It's unlikely a Cleric can afford Conductive unarmed strikes at 5.
Assuming they could though, at level 5 the Sacred Fist has two unarmed flurry attacks and fervor for swift-action buffing and swift-action cure wounds. The Cleric had better hope that they consistently land their 1-round sleep effect with their one punch per round, and that two rounds of sleep (which is all they get when burning 3/round) are enough.
Race Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Domain Strike (Repose), Improved Unarmed StrikeCL2
CL3 Stunning Fist
CL4
CL5 Staggering Strike
I mean... it CAN... at least for PFS. Clerics of Irori do get IUS as a bonus feat at lv1 for PFS, so... yeah.
I mean... it CAN... at least for PFS. Clerics of Irori do get IUS as a bonus feat at lv1 for PFS, so... yeah.
Ah, Staggering Fist. I missed that - thought the combo in question was with a Conductive weapon. So they don't drain their Gentle Rest pool that quickly, but they only get one Staggering Fist attack per day and it's got a save. So really, they only get one round of sleep, and only if they hit and the save fails. And Stunning Fist is BAB +8 unless I missed something. And their TWF required splitting abilities to grab and has a lower die.
It's doable, but I'm not necessarily sure I'd want to be the Cleric in that situation rather than a Sacred Fist poised to swift-cure and maybe use an interesting Blessing, and who was able to spend his feats freely. Though my tastes being what they are, unarmed is boring and those feats would mean something along the lines of Weapon Focus: Greatsword -> Crusader's Flurry: Greatsword by 5. Perhaps a Conductive Greatsword with the Gentle Rest blessing...
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Huh... I would have expected that the inherent advantages of a Dex build would outweigh the worse spell support. Righteous Might comes in at CL 13 for a Sacred Fist, at which point the game is pretty much over.
As for Reduce Person, it gives you a net +2 to AC and +2 to hit, and the decreased damage die is offset by the +1 Dex to damage. Overall a great deal for a 50 gp potion. Pity it's not on the Cleric list.
Maybe the worst oversight in how they designed the Sacred Fist is that there is no "Monk Unarmed Strike" clause that lets them cast spells on their own unarmed strike.
Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists is a major nuisance for dex-based Sacred Fist, since they have no simple option but an expensive item for both dex-to-damage and enhancement. They're looking at 16,000gp for an Agile magic attack, and 64,000gp to have Agile +3.
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Because only the Monk's unarmed Strikes count as both a Manufactured and a Natural Weapon. Unarmed Strikes normally do not, and so Magic Weapon does not work. Magic Fang does, but it was probably an oversight. However, it is worth noting this was true pre-errata and probably just wasn't caught. Should be very FAQ/errata 2.0 worthy.
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Magic Fang works, Magic weapon doesn't. Just FYI, the only reason it doesn't work is because the spell specifically says it doesn't.
The target of the spell says weapon touched. a Unarmed Strike is a weapon, it's just not a manufactured one. If the spell didn't have the additional text denying unarmed strikes, it would work.
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Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a sacred fist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike. This ability replaces focus weapon.
It only says Sacred Fist uses warpriest levels as monk levels for the amount of damage. It also states you gain IUS as a bonus feat.
I think it was intended for the Sacred Fist unarmed strike to count as a monk unarmed strike for the purposes of effects that enhance manufactured or natural weapons, but it's not specifically stated anywhere.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a sacred fist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike. This ability replaces focus weapon.It only says Sacred Fist uses warpriest levels as monk levels for the amount of damage. It also states you gain IUS as a bonus feat.
I think it was intended for the Sacred Fist unarmed strike to count as a monk unarmed strike for the purposes of effects that enhance manufactured or natural weapons, but it's not specifically stated anywhere.
So the REAL irony of the situation is that the Warpriest was ALWAYS more balanced to the Sacred Fist than was originally noticed.
Since the Warpriest could add not only Weapon Focus feats to its Unarmed and Natural Attacks, but also its Sacred Weapon effects, while the Sacred Fist HAD no Sacred Weapon effects and RAW COULDN'T add Magic Weapon to its Unarmed Attacks, the Warpriest was actually just about even with the SF when it came to Unarmed attacks, and beat it out fairly squarely due to Natural Attacks...
In retrospect, it seems like a lot of the "SF is better than the Warpriest" was based around the presumption that the SF was pretty much EXACTLY a Monk with Divine spells, when in reality it had a LOT of built-in stop-gaps like not allowing Magic Weapon to work on its Unarmed Strikes RAW, etc.
So... yeah. I'm kinda more and more in favor of giving the Sacred Fist back its Flurry quality, or at least treating its Flurry like an Unchained Monk's Flurry, 'cause... DAMN - now it's just not really even a CONTEST anymore otherwise.
The thing about full-BAB Sacred Fist flurry is that a Sacred Fist with a weapon - especially with a good weapon from Crusader's Flurry - is pretty stunningly dangerous. Flurry of Greatsword with full BAB, Power Attack and Cleric buff is a bit of a reaping machine.
I would just throw in a clause letting at least the SF's own spells work on their unarmed strike, and maybe one saying that their unarmed strike is a valid target for fervor spells.
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Let's face it, a MoMS dip is a cheat, and you know it. ;o) the MoMS ability was designed to replace Flurry, not supercharge it. (It's a pretty shoddily worded archetype to begin with.) As a DM, I wouldn't allow it.
Looks like making the SF's UAS a proper weapon would solve everything, though. The fact that the damage scales like the Monk's is a pretty good indication that it should be.
Most sf are better off with at least a lvl of moms dip. This gives them the monk unarmed strike qualities and makes them able to gmw their unarmed.
Do they stack, at least?
There are threads about it.. some say yes and some say no.In the end, is the SF still a viable choice (even being... weaker than the base WP)? Would it make a difference in a party? To which tier does it belong?
Most sf are better off with at least a lvl of moms dip. This gives them the monk unarmed strike qualities and makes them able to gmw their unarmed.
Do they stack, at least?
There are threads about it.. some say yes and some say no.In the end, is the SF still a viable choice (even being... weaker than the base WP)? Would it make a difference in a party? To which tier does it belong?
The official ruling (don't ask me to look it up, I just remember that the FAQ WAS answered as part of a wide-reaching FAQ) is that they do not stack, so a lv1 Monk lv11 Sacred Fist has the Unarmed Damage of a lv11 Sacred Fist, because the Sacred Fits's damage overrides the Monk's (because it's the greater value)
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To which tier does it belong?
Tiers, schmiers. I've played Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, and a bunch of martial classes, and overall I'd say I've had more fun with the latter. I know the former theoretically can DO ALL THE THINGS, but in practice I've never felt sidelined or obsoleted as a martial. There's always something that needs its ass kicked. Conversely, I actually have felt somewhat useless with Clerics and Wizards occasionally when their prepared spell lists disagreed with the reality of the adventuring day.
In retrospect, it seems like a lot of the "SF is better than the Warpriest" was based around the presumption that the SF was pretty much EXACTLY a Monk with Divine spells, when in reality it had a LOT of built-in stop-gaps like not allowing Magic Weapon to work on its Unarmed Strikes RAW, etc.Don't forget the full-plate flurry bull s$%+. But yes, this is really what I've seen it as from the very start. And that's also why I really don't like this guide, it treats the entire class as s&&! (really, it does, just read the "why should you play a Warpriest?" and you'll see) and when you get to the SF part you realise that this is actually only a SF guide built around assumptions. Now heavily outdated and the writer doesn't seem to be active enough to rewrite it.
I do hope Tark gets around to writing one, I know he said before that he was looking at it.
Even in this thread, I and several others listed builds that either matched or out-did Undone's Sacred Fist build.
Undone then seemed to shove them off as "nope, something's gotta be wrong - nothing can outdo the Sacred Fist, so you're wrong" like the Sacred Fist MUST be the best iteration of the class, as though it were a cosmic law or some junk, and any data to suggest otherwise has to be flawed and/or have glaring weaknesses which make it bad, even when none existed.
Shouldn't the guide be updated after SF got nerfed?
Edit: just noticed that Undone hasn't posted since March. Should someone else make a new guide then?
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It should have been updated a while ago. There were enough viable builds to warrant further development, but nothing was ever done.
There were even mistakes made the first time around.
NOW, it's horrendously outdated, given that rules clarifications alone have made the Sacred Fist section completely inaccurate from the get-go.
Well, I mean he or she did it for free and fun.
No one's knocking them for the effort. I just think there's a number of issues with it and the guide itself is need of dire revision now that SF has been nerfed. If I felt like I could write up a class guide I would do it.
Conversely, I actually have felt somewhat useless with Clerics and Wizards occasionally when their prepared spell lists disagreed with the reality of the adventuring day.
DAT.
Still, I just wanted to know if the SF worths my time.
Conversely, I actually have felt somewhat useless with Clerics and Wizards occasionally when their prepared spell lists disagreed with the reality of the adventuring day.
DAT.
Still, I just wanted to know if the SF worths my time.
It still has its uses, especially if your DM rules that you can use the Unchained Monk flurry in place of the original monk flurry.
• If you want to go Strength-based Unarmed or Strength-based Two-Weapon Fighting, then the Sacred Fist is your class of choice.
• If you don't mind, or prefer, going Dex-based Unarmed or Dex-based Two-Weapon Fighting, then the base Warpriest is slightly better.
• If you're a Half-Elf or Tengu and thus have access to the Sansetsukon or Seven-Branched Sword, the Sacred Fist just blows the Warpriest out of the water due to its ability to Flurry with it.
• If you're willing to wait until level 4 and burn 2 Feats on Crusader's Flurry and Weapon Focus, as well as a Feat or other ability to gain Martial Weapon Proficiency, the Sacred Fist is really great for using 2-handed weapons (especially two-handed weapons with 1d10 or higher damage).
If your DM forces you to stick with the pre-Unchained Monk's flurry, however, the two-handed thing starts losing a LOT of its usefulness since it costs so many feats just to get off the ground for a significant drop in accuracy for each attack.
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Well, I mean he or she did it for free and fun.No one's knocking them for the effort. I just think there's a number of issues with it and the guide itself is need of dire revision now that SF has been nerfed. If I felt like I could write up a class guide I would do it.
I'm just saying, I did one a long while ago and it takes a lot of effort and work. Especially when new books come out, there are large changes, or things like that. There have been more than a few less than kind seeming comments, (and likely some from myself as well), and doing all of this, for free, with all that in mind can easily make someone resentful. There is also the possibility that the sheer amount of effort to change is just not worth it, in their eyes.
I started mine back in the mostly Core Rulebook era before I joined the military, and when I came out of Basic Training and Medical, I fully intended to incorporate the APG, and then Ult Magic, then Ult Combat, and then, and then. . . All the while also beginning to hyperlink things, add in various errata/FAQs, consider the various feedback discussions I received, and then it became pretty clear I just would not be able to maintain it to a degree I found appropriate. It's still here somewhere, but at this point I don't even know where to start if I had the time and will to do so.
It also didn't help that I tend to disagree about 50% or more with many of the other Cleric Guides out there. So, I just mean I can fully understand. It's an effort that the did on their own time, for free, and it certainly shows that they put a lot of effort into.
Well, I mean he or she did it for free and fun.No one's knocking them for the effort. I just think there's a number of issues with it and the guide itself is need of dire revision now that SF has been nerfed. If I felt like I could write up a class guide I would do it.I'm just saying, I did one a long while ago and it takes a lot of effort and work. Especially when new books come out, there are large changes, or things like that. There have been more than a few less than kind seeming comments, (and likely some from myself as well), and doing all of this, for free, with all that in mind can easily make someone resentful. There is also the possibility that the sheer amount of effort to change is just not worth it, in their eyes.
I started mine back in the mostly Core Rulebook era before I joined the military, and when I came out of Basic Training and Medical, I fully intended to incorporate the APG, and then Ult Magic, then Ult Combat, and then, and then. . . All the while also beginning to hyperlink things, add in various errata/FAQs, consider the various feedback discussions I received, and then it became pretty clear I just would not be able to maintain it to a degree I found appropriate. It's still here somewhere, but at this point I don't even know where to start if I had the time and will to do so.
It also didn't help that I tend to disagree about 50% or more with many of the other Cleric Guides out there. So, I just mean I can fully understand. It's an effort that the did on their own time, for free, and it certainly shows that they put a lot of effort into.
Again, no one is knocking the time or effort to make one of these. The problem, to put it kindly, is that some of the things in this guide are not correct. It has been further invalidated by the changes to SF which the guide points as the end all be all of the class. There are no other class guides to the warpriest which means who knows how many people are going to use the only guide for warpriests to make their characters.
If someone else can make a new warpriest guide it would be greatly appreciated by all.
If someone else can make a new warpriest guide it would be greatly appreciated by all.
Indeed. But it seems that it won't happen for now.
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If someone else can make a new warpriest guide it would be greatly appreciated by all.
Indeed. But it seems that it won't happen for now.
:\
I'm hoping some of the mechanic gurus we've seen in the thread will take it upon themselves to make one.
I'm hoping some of the mechanic gurus we've seen in the thread will take it upon themselves to make one.
If someone else can make a new warpriest guide it would be greatly appreciated by all.
Indeed. But it seems that it won't happen for now.
:\
I'm in the early stages of one.
Especially interested in knocking out some of the crazier builds like the Natural Weapons Barbarian-Warpriest, a double-shield pure warpriest, and a dual-Starknife Ranger-Warpriest that can switch between Melee and Ranged Combat freely.
Also possibly looking at a two-handed warpriest utilizing the Champion of the Faith. Maybe also a Forgepriest and a Divine Commander.
The Warpriest is hard to write much variety for, since it has so few Archetypes, and several of those Archetypes are just not very strong (if you could combine the Divine Commander with the Champion of the Faith, you'd have a very not-Paladin build, but since they both replace the third-level Bonus Combat Feat...)
I am glad both of you guys are working on it or thinking of making one. This class IMO is really underrated. There's a lot of variety in builds that may not be the best min/max out there but certainly have flavor and can mechanically work well in a group.
700.
:v