Do Kaiju come from the Pit of Gormuz?

[TritonOne]

Do the Kaiju in Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 4 also originate from the Pit of Gormuz like the Spawn of Rovagug? Or do the Kaiju have different origins on Golarion? I've noticed that Kaiju are larger and have a chaotic neutral alignment rather the chaotic evil alignment of the Spawn of Rovagug.

[Zhangar]

No. Kaiju have nothing to do with the Pit of Gormuz.

You could easily have a spawn of Rovagug who adopts parts of the kaiju rules, though. The most recently statted Spawn of Rovagug does just that.

Most of Golarian's kaiju are located in the southern end of Tian Xia.

[James Jacobs]

Spawn of Rovagug are designed to occupy a game-play niche where they serve as big-bad-end-guys for a core game against a 20th level party. Hence the fact that the spawn range in CR from 21 to 25.

Kaiju are designed for a game-play niche that's higher than that—CR range of 26 to 30. This could be mythc play, but could also be for a game where fighting the monster isn't so much the goal of a campaign as it would be PREVENTING the fight from ever happening.

[Icyshadow]

He wasn't asking about the niche that the Kaiju occupy. He was asking if they had any relation to the Pit of Gormuz.

[James Jacobs]

Icyshadow wrote:

He wasn't asking about the niche that the Kaiju occupy. He was asking if they had any relation to the Pit of Gormuz.

Yup. I get that. Zhangar answered that perfectly. Consider my post to be bonus kaiju/spawn of Rovagug information, because I've seen lots of folks assume that they're the same things. They're not.

[Kthulhu]

I'll go ahead and give the best answer (no offense, James). Kaiju COULD come from the Pit...but they don't have to.

[James Jacobs]

Kthulhu wrote:

I'll go ahead and give the best answer (no offense, James). Kaiju COULD come from the Pit...but they don't have to.

No offense taken... although from a world canon view, they don't come from there.

They could ABSOLUTELY come from anywhere, the Pit included, but in canon... they come from Tian Xia (or, beyond that, from space).

[Shadowborn]

Some of them come up from the depths...thirty stories high...

[Secane]

Is the presence of Kaiju in Tian Xia, one the reasons there doesn't seem to have any recorded history of Spawns of Rovagug attacks in Tian Xia?

Aka, do/would the Kaiju attack or chase off any Spawn of Rovagug that enters a Kaiju's territory?

[FormerFiend]

I can't imagine the kaiju do much in the way of preventing spawn attacks in Tian Xai, considering the kaiju are concentrated in Valashmai, in Tian Xai's southern tip, which is one of the least likely entry points a spawn would take to cross into the continent.

[Cthulhudrew]

Secane wrote:

Is the presence of Kaiju in Tian Xia, one the reasons there doesn't seem to have any recorded history of Spawns of Rovagug attacks in Tian Xia?

That's an interesting question, actually. It would certainly be kind of in keeping with the Kaiju source material, wherein someone like Godzilla often shows up to prevent the depredations of a nefariously (or undiscerning) similar large beast.

Rovagug Spawn vs. Kaiju! That would be cool to see.

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

Shadowborn wrote:

Some of them come up from the depths...thirty stories high...

...breathing fire... head in the sky!

[Alleran]

Cthulhudrew wrote:

Rovagug Spawn vs. Kaiju! That would be cool to see.

The Spawn win. Kaiju have no means of getting around the Regeneration and 3-round-resurrection that the Spawn of Rovagug have, while the Spawn can just keep coming back and doing damage until the kaiju goes down. They can't stop the Spawn.

[James Jacobs]

Secane wrote:

Is the presence of Kaiju in Tian Xia, one the reasons there doesn't seem to have any recorded history of Spawns of Rovagug attacks in Tian Xia?

Aka, do/would the Kaiju attack or chase off any Spawn of Rovagug that enters a Kaiju's territory?

Not really... Distance and the Wall of Heaven and the ocean between Casmaron and Tian Xia have more of an influence on why the Spawn of Rovagug don't go over there... as does the fact that Rovagug's just not all that often worshiped over there.

Kaiju would likely kill/chase off spawn they find, yes.

[Alleran]

James Jacobs wrote:

Kaiju would likely kill/chase off spawn they find, yes.

I'm curious. How could they kill them? Even if they manage to drop them down far enough into the negatives, the Spawn just come back to life again.

[PandaGaki]

They'd chase them off / kill them off due to the almighty power of plot and creative decisions.

Not everything needs to be explained by a detailed math chart.

[Sauce987654321]

PandaGaki wrote:

They'd chase them off / kill them off due to the almighty power of plot and creative decisions.

Not everything needs to be explained by a detailed math chart.

It's not really a math chart that's involved, it's their staple ability that sets them apart from any other kind of monster.

[FormerFiend]

This isn't rocket science; spawn and kaiju fight, kaiju wins because it's simply stronger. Spawn gets up, they fight again, kaiju wins again. Spawn gets up, turns around and goes where it can cause some destruction as opposed to being repeatedly murdered.

[TritonOne]

Does anyone else have Akira Ifukube's "Japanese Army March", aka "Gojira's Theme", playing in their heads thinking about kaiju?

I was hoping that at least one of the varied tales of their genesis would be told. :-) I try to be thorough in checking canon and any tidbits that the authors and creators might be willing to share. James Jacobs has made it pretty clear that kaiju don't originate from Casmaron or the Pit of Gormuz and are wholly unrelated to Rovagug and Spawn of Rovagug.

While I wait for the kaiju stories to be told in greater detail in Pathfinder products, it looks like I can take inspiration from the Japanese daikaiju genre of films. I wouldn't be surprised if there are miniature faeries, like the Elias, who sing a prayer to summon a kaiju. ;-) I wonder if I can work in an atomic bomb metaphor? ;-)

[James Jacobs]

Alleran wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Kaiju would likely kill/chase off spawn they find, yes.

I'm curious. How could they kill them? Even if they manage to drop them down far enough into the negatives, the Spawn just come back to life again.

I was speaking from an idle story viewpoint, not a "I've run the numbers and done mock battles to see if they really could."

[James Jacobs]

TritonOne wrote:

Does anyone else have Akira Ifukube's "Japanese Army March", aka "Gojira's Theme", playing in their heads thinking about kaiju?

I was hoping that at least one of the varied tales of their genesis would be told. :-) I try to be thorough in checking canon and any tidbits that the authors and creators might be willing to share. James Jacobs has made it pretty clear that kaiju don't originate from Casmaron or the Pit of Gormuz and are wholly unrelated to Rovagug and Spawn of Rovagug.

While I wait for the kaiju stories to be told in greater detail in Pathfinder products, it looks like I can take inspiration from the Japanese daikaiju genre of films. I wouldn't be surprised if there are miniature faeries, like the Elias, who sing a prayer to summon a kaiju. ;-) I wonder if I can work in an atomic bomb metaphor? ;-)

Ikufube's music kinda plays in my head all the time, whether or not I'm thinking about kaiju.

And you'll note that King Mogaru has a "Susceptible to Song" weakness. Which would mean that if there WERE tiny signing faeries... they could in theory call Mogaru to help.

[TritonOne]

James Jacobs wrote:

Ikufube's music kinda plays in my head all the time, whether or not I'm thinking about kaiju.

LOL!

James Jacobs wrote:

And you'll note that King Mogaru has a "Susceptible to Song" weakness. Which would mean that if there WERE tiny signing faeries... they could in theory call Mogaru to help.

"Mosura No Uta"? ;-) I presume that Lord Varklops is a homage to King Ghidorah.

[Cthulhudrew]

Alleran wrote:

The Spawn win. Kaiju have no means of getting around the Regeneration and 3-round-resurrection that the Spawn of Rovagug have, while the Spawn can just keep coming back and doing damage until the kaiju goes down. They can't stop the Spawn.

Nah. Godzilla always loses at first, then comes back and manages to save the day in spite of overwhelming odds.

Like a Player Character.

[James Jacobs]

TritonOne wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Ikufube's music kinda plays in my head all the time, whether or not I'm thinking about kaiju.

LOL!

James Jacobs wrote:

And you'll note that King Mogaru has a "Susceptible to Song" weakness. Which would mean that if there WERE tiny signing faeries... they could in theory call Mogaru to help.

"Mosura No Uta"? ;-) I presume that Lord Varklops is a homage to King Ghidorah.

Yup; Lord Varklops is indeed a King Ghidorah homage.

[sowhereaminow]

Kaiju versus Spawn of Rovagug. Why is this not a card game/board game put out by Paizo? Just wondering...

Edit: or that high level module many clamor for...

[Cthulhudrew]

sowhereaminow wrote:

Kaiju versus Spawn of Rovagug. Why is this not a card game/board game put out by Paizo? Just wondering...

Edit: or that high level module many clamor for...

I'm totally picturing a Shadow of the Colossus type adventure now.

Or one of those mini-games that Dragon magazine used to put out back in the day (like clay-o-rama and orcwars)

[sowhereaminow]

All we need now is a giant mecha-kaiju robot to rise out of Numeria to turn this into a three way dance...

Or a giant advanced Starspawn of Cthulu to descend from the dark tapestry to turn this into a battle royal for the soul of Golarion...

And a humongous Arclord golem secretly assembled in Nex...

And of course Geb would be obligated to get involved with some colossal undead creature...

Maybe then have a run in from a gigantic canon-wielding gorilla from deep in the Mwangi Expanse...

I have been watching entirely too many kaiju movies as of late...

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

sowhereaminow wrote:

I have been watching entirely too many kaiju movies as of late...

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Kthulhu]

sowhereaminow wrote:

I have been watching entirely too many kaiju movies as of late...

I've probably got you beat. Over the past couple of months or so, I've watched:

Godzilla (1954)
Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah
Godzilla vs. Mothra
Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II
Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla
Godzilla vs. Destoroyah
Godzilla 2000: Millennium
Godzilla vs. Megaguirus
Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack
Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla
Godzilla: Tokyo S.O.S.
Godzilla: Final Wars
Godzilla (2014)
Rebirth of Mothra
Rebirth of Mothra II
Rebirth of Mothra III
Gamera: Guardian of the Universe
Gamera 2: Attack of Legion
Gamera 3: Revenge of Iris
Pacific Rim
Cloverfield

[Kthulhu]

James Jacobs wrote:

Yup; Lord Varklops is indeed a King Ghidorah homage.

When comes the Mothra-expy? And if you haven't already (although I'd wager you have), you should check out the Rebirth of Mothra trilogy.

[James Jacobs]

Kthulhu wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Yup; Lord Varklops is indeed a King Ghidorah homage.

When comes the Mothra-expy? And if you haven't already (although I'd wager you have), you should check out the Rebirth of Mothra trilogy.

Mothra is a little bit Mogaru (the song bit), and a little bit more the moon grub character whose name I can't recall off the top of my head.

And yeah... I own Rebirth of Mothra. WEIRD movies. My favorite scene is the mini kaiju battle in the apartment.

[Kthulhu]

Only Kaiju movies I can think of that have battles between TINY monsters.

[James Jacobs]

Kthulhu wrote:

Only Kaiju movies I can think of that have battles between TINY monsters.

Or that have magic urine.

[Kthulhu]

:P

If a jellyfish stings you, EVERYBODY has magic urine.

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

Isn't Desna Mothra? Or at least Her herald is?

(Now we need a rewrite of the Night Monarch with kaiju subtype added, for when Desna gives it that extra boost.)

[Kthulhu]

Don't forget Aqua Night Monarch, Lightspeed Night Monarch, and Armor Night Monarch. For when Mothra Night Monarch needs even more of an extra boost!

[ENHenry]

sowhereaminow wrote:

Kaiju versus Spawn of Rovagug. Why is this not a card game/board game put out by Paizo? Just wondering...

"King of Kasai?" ;)

Where Mogaru, the Tarrasque, and Unity in a Colossal Annihilator Robot all battle for the center circle on a game board!

I think Iello Games might look a little perturbed... ;)

[sowhereaminow]

ENHenry wrote:

sowhereaminow wrote:

Kaiju versus Spawn of Rovagug. Why is this not a card game/board game put out by Paizo? Just wondering...

"King of Kasai?" ;)

Where Mogaru, the Tarrasque, and Unity in a Colossal Annihilator Robot all battle for the center circle on a game board!

I think Iello Games might look a little perturbed... ;)

Actually had "King of Tokyo" style game in my head when I mentioned this, though I'd call it King of Golarion. Might be an interesting partner game like Pathfinder Munchkin some day.

And as a side note, been jumping around the Godzilla back catalog as of late. Lots of fond memories there.

[Here4daFreeSwag]

TritonOne wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Ikufube's music kinda plays in my head all the time, whether or not I'm thinking about kaiju.

LOL!

Some visual (semi-related?) accompaniment to go along with that music.

[revaar]

James Jacobs wrote:

Alleran wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Kaiju would likely kill/chase off spawn they find, yes.

I'm curious. How could they kill them? Even if they manage to drop them down far enough into the negatives, the Spawn just come back to life again.

I was speaking from an idle story viewpoint, not a "I've run the numbers and done mock battles to see if they really could."

I imagine the battle would something like this:

Kaiju: <I don't like you being in my territory>
Spawn: RRRAAAAARGH MURDER DEATH KILL!!
Kaiju: *One sided beatdown*
Spawn: *Regenerates* KILL STAB MAIM KILL!!!!
Kaiju: *Repeats beatdown, picks up body, and hurls 10,000 miles into the ocean*
Spawn: *Twinkle*

[Alleran]

revaar wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Alleran wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Kaiju would likely kill/chase off spawn they find, yes.

I'm curious. How could they kill them? Even if they manage to drop them down far enough into the negatives, the Spawn just come back to life again.

I was speaking from an idle story viewpoint, not a "I've run the numbers and done mock battles to see if they really could."

I imagine the battle would something like this:

Kaiju: <I don't like you being in my territory>
Spawn: RRRAAAAARGH MURDER DEATH KILL!!
Kaiju: *One sided beatdown*
Spawn: *Regenerates* KILL STAB MAIM KILL!!!!
Kaiju: *Repeats beatdown, picks up body, and hurls 10,000 miles into the ocean*
Spawn: *Twinkle*

Okay, I got bored and ran a test battle with the Tarrasque versus Mogaru and the Tarrasque versus Bezravnis. They started 600 feet from one another. Raw damage and natural attacks and crushing melee, for the most part.

Versus Mogaru: It took 6 rounds for Mogaru to deal enough damage that the Tarrasque was dropped below 0 HP. In return, the Tarrasque knocked Mogaru down to 570 HP. To be fair, I did get some bad rolls for the Tarrasque, but Mogaru is also 3 CR points ahead of it. In ranged conflict, there was no winner, since the Tarrasque was immune to Mogaru's breath weapon thanks to its carapace, but the Tarrasque's attack bonus with spines was too low to do serious damage. In melee, Mogaru had enough of an attack advantage that unless it rolled a 1 everything would hit, while the Tarrasque needed a 10 or better. I had some quite shocking rolls for the Tarrasque in melee, if I'm honest, so it may be able to do better depending on averages.

What I noticed, most importantly, is that all the damage dealt was nonlethal. It will pop back up again in one round. Mogaru will have restored 30 HP from Fast Healing. Assuming good rolls, the Tarrasque may be able to wear it down via attrition, so the problem is really that Mogaru just cannot kill it. No matter what he does, the Tarrasque will pop back up again. Mogaru can continually keep it down by attacking constantly and not letting it regenerate back above 0 HP, but that requires constant attention. Mogaru can't get far enough away to effectively leave the field before the Tarrasque will pop up again.

So... I guess it's sort of a win for Mogaru as to who goes below 0 HP first (which you'd expect, since Mogaru is CR 28 and the Tarrasque is CR 25, and even then I do think the Tarrasque could have done better if it had gotten some better and more consistent rolls), but not really a win for the fight. Yeah, Mogaru can knock it down into the negatives, but the problem remains. The Tarrasque cannot be killed by any means that the kaiju possesses. Mogaru also can't get far enough away to legitimately quit the field before the Tarrasque could come back and attack again, but the Tarrasque will need to get better rolls (I had some truly shocking rolls - maybe somebody can run average numbers, since I'm bad at that sort of math) to do enough damage to stay ahead of the Fast Healing. I'm going to tentatively call it a stalemate. One or both of them has to willingly surrender the fight to get a winner, and it isn't so much a winner so much as one is more stubborn than the other.

Versus Bezravnis: I ran this one twice. In the first one, I got some even worse rolls for the Tarrasque than against Mogaru, and it took Bezravnis 6 rounds to drop the Tarrasque below 0 HP while bringing Bezravnis itself down to 232 HP. In the rematch, it took 7 rounds for it to pull it off, but Bezravnis was itself dropped down to 47 HP by the end, and the next round the Tarrasque would have gotten back up and been able to attack again, dropping Bezravnis below 0 HP. I'm not willing to call this a win for Bezravnis. In fact, I'd call it a loss, ultimately, because not only can it not kill it outright (something it shares with Mogaru), unlike Mogaru it doesn't have enough staying power to keep the Tarrasque down without losing too much of its own HP in the process. So the Tarrasque wins by simple virtue of the fact that Bezravnis not only cannot kill it, but cannot do enough to it to keep it below 0 HP while at the same time retaining its own HP total at the point where the Tarrasque can't do more than it can heal.

Ranged combat in this fight was similarly a stalemate. Bezravnis can't touch the Tarrasque with its heat beams (and is immune to any reflection), and the Tarrasque didn't do enough with Spines to appreciably damage Bezravnis.

Additionally, without the Fast Healing Bezravnis would have gone down to the Tarrasque. It needed it. Mogaru could maybe have gone without and still won, but that definitely wasn't the case here.

Mitigating Factors: The Tarrasque is the strongest of the Spawn of Rovagug. I didn't run the numbers for Chemnosit, Volnagur or Ulunat. Presumably the ranged conflict would do more to those three since they lack the Carapace of the Tarrasque, and may allow the kaiju to gain a significant if not overwhelming advantage before combat is joined.

Conclusion: The regeneration of the Spawn of Rovagug is nothing to sneer at. It allows them to stalemate creatures sometimes 2-3 points higher than they are in CR terms. Not only that, the stalemate is in mechanical terms something that the kaiju cannot afford to ignore, because unless the kaiju retreats from the fight, the Spawn won't die and can keep on fighting them. In the case of kaiju only a point or two higher than the Spawn (such as Bezravnis), it's entirely likely that said Spawn will wind up killing them rather than the other way around, since the kaiju won't be strong enough to deliver a one-sided beatdown like what Mogaru can do. The Spawn has to choose to retreat - agency in the fight is theirs. And considering that their entire purpose is to just not stop and go all "MURDER DEATH KILL" on their targets, driving them off sounds a lot easier than it is.

Final Conclusion: Don't mess with the Spawn unless you have some sort of BFR tactic (Battlefield Removal). This includes if you're a kaiju, because if you don't then the only way to "win" (quotation marks intentional - it's not really winning) is to be more stubborn than they are and outlast them.

P.S. One or two decently optimised PCs will be able to do a whole lot more to the Spawn than the kaiju can, but that's just the way it goes.

[Simeon]

Anyone think Mogaru is based off of Godzilla? They're both big lizard montsers and both of their breath weapons are a beam-type thing.

[Nathan Nasif]

He is most definitely Golarion's Godzilla.

[James Jacobs]

Simeon wrote:

Anyone think Mogaru is based off of Godzilla? They're both big lizard montsers and both of their breath weapons are a beam-type thing.

I do. And I designed him, so there's that.

He's actually kind of a combination between Godzilla and Mothra (with his susceptibility to songs).

[KSF]

Desna seems a bit Mothra-ish to me, sometimes. But that's probably just me.

[James Jacobs]

KSF wrote:

Desna seems a bit Mothra-ish to me, sometimes. But that's probably just me.

Nope; it's not just you! :-)

Being the creator of Desna (she's actually the first good deity I invented for my campaign setting over 30 years ago), and being a big fan of Mothra, there definitely ARE some cross overs there. Desna IS called the song of the spheres, after all...

[Bellona]

... So Desna is an ascended kaiju? :)

[Bellona]

For that matter, what is the origin of the kaiju on Golarion? Is there more than "source/event" which brought them into existence.?

[James Jacobs]

Bellona wrote:

For that matter, what is the origin of the kaiju on Golarion? Is there more than "source/event" which brought them into existence.?

Some are aliens. Some are not. Some were born. Some were created.

It's not one source for all. They all have their own unique stories.

[Bellona]

Yeah, I remember the Star Titan's origin story - liked it a lot! But have we any more information about the others?

For that matter, have any kaiju been sighted outside of the Valashmai Jungle?