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DM: My guy grapples you.
Me: I'm in whirlwind form.
DM: Nothing in that form says you cannot be grappled.
Me: <-- mouth agape.
Still me: Fine. I fly up to drop him.
DM: You can't. You have to beat a grapple check to move.
Me: BUT I'M A FLYING AIR ELEMENTAL. How does a grapple stop me from that?!?!
DM: Grapple rules, that's how.
Me: UGH. OK, I eject him!
DM: You can't. You have to succeed on an opposed grapple check to break free of him.
Me: But this is my whirlwind power to eject people! It doesn't have any conditions on it; it just works!
DM: Grapple imposes conditions, sorry.
Me: So what can I do?
DM: Nothing. You're frozen in air, and he deals damage every round with the grapple until you're dead.
Me: *gasp*
OK friends, what is wrong with any of that above? I could NOT shoot holes in her argument, because the text in the books really doesn't seem to disqualify anything she did as DM. Being a whirlwind doesn't prevent *anything* from what I can tell. You're not gaseous, you're not incorporeal. You can be grabbed, even if that wasn't the intention.
Are there rules somewhere, tucked in a page I've missed? Is there ANY way a druid with whirlwind can do ANYTHING once grappled?
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Specific beats general. The whirlwind rules override general rules.
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Does the whirlwind require you to grapple him? If not, does it require you to share a space?
If the answer is no, then you can't be grappled. Your enemy can't close with you to start a grapple.
If the answer is yes, then you can be attacked back by someone who is better at close in combat than you are. It certainly makes you think harder about what to pull a whirlwind on.
A creature caught in the whirlwind cant make its normal attacks.
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A creature caught in the whirlwind cant make its normal attacks.
Not according to the bestiary.
They cannot move, but can otherwise act as normal. They get penalties to attacks though.
However, here's the part that I would find hard to accept. In order to get lifted, the creature must be smaller than the elemental. It had to fail two reflex saves (one for damage and one for lifting). The whirlwind is big, half as wide as it is tall.
So, your large air elemental can make a 30 foot tall whirlwind, which is 10 feet wide at its top.
The medium creature you picked up can't move to start the grapple, and since you get to determine where they are in the whirlwind, put them at the top, out of reach of you. No grapple.
The GMs not reading anything wrong here, but I'm thinking you should discuss it with her some more. It's a particularly nasty thing to pull as a DM, not something I'd do lightly as a DM myself. Something to be reserved for a truly scary creature or bad guy.
Cheers
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Just re read the op again. I initially thought the elemental had picked up the bad guy first. That's not the case here.
Chris Kenney has the right of it.
You can be grappled. If it's one size smaller than you ( or less) then it needs to make reflex saves to avoid getting damaged back.
My advice is to immediately revert back to normal air elemental form and slam attack, or try and break free of grapple.
Better yet, convert to a form that's better at damage while grappling! Constrictor snake or similar. Make your opponent regret grappling you.
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If a creature is in whirlwind form it occupies all the area of the whirlwind as far as I can tell. Putting your target at the top of the whirlwind still places them within reach of the whirlwind. Again, if you can find me a rules quote saying otherwise then by all means share it.A creature caught in the whirlwind cant make its normal attacks.Not according to the bestiary.
They cannot move, but can otherwise act as normal. They get penalties to attacks though.
However, here's the part that I would find hard to accept. In order to get lifted, the creature must be smaller than the elemental. It had to fail two reflex saves (one for damage and one for lifting). The whirlwind is big, half as wide as it is tall.
So, your large air elemental can make a 30 foot tall whirlwind, which is 10 feet wide at its top.
The medium creature you picked up can't move to start the grapple, and since you get to determine where they are in the whirlwind, put them at the top, out of reach of you. No grapple.The GMs not reading anything wrong here, but I'm thinking you should discuss it with her some more. It's a particularly nasty thing to pull as a DM, not something I'd do lightly as a DM myself. Something to be reserved for a truly scary creature or bad guy.
Cheers
No, you're quite right. I realised that after posting it.
Ooops i was skimming rules and read it wrong. "A creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not threaten the area around it." I read it as "a creature in a whirlwind cannot"
My bad.
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Ooops i was skimming rules and read it wrong. "A creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not threaten the area around it." I read it as "a creature in a whirlwind cannot"
My bad.
Hehe, I was looking for the bit you mentioned, and can easily see where you made the mistake. These are complex rules.
Thus the reason the forums are so busy I guess.
Just to clarify. Some people seem to be concerned that the bad guy bypassed my whirlwind's damage, or that the bad guy didn't have to make saving throws, even though the grapple counts as "touching" and should cause him to be sucked into the whirlwind. In point of fact, the bad guy virtually *welcomed* the attack -- I moved through his square, he took damage and was swept up. He didn't bother to grapple until he was already in the whirlwind, taking damage, failing all saves.
However, he was a grapple monkey with more HP than I had. And he gets +5 for initiating the grapple. So, I lose.
It sounds like maybe, just maybe, the whirlwind rules are considered "more specific" than the grapple rules, and maybe, I should have been able to eject him then...?
I still don't understand how his grapple can stop my movement. He has no leverage or control of air. I'm using the air itself as propulsion -- no wings or other moving part he can pin down. That part's bizarre to me, even if there are no rules for it. I can't conceive of it.
I'm pretty sure that if the grapple is legit, the auto death is legit too. I don't have the CMB to break the grapple, and he can deal more HP damage than I can sustain. It IS auto death, which is why I was hoping for some way around the grapple entirely.
Transforming into a creature with a better grapple check didn't occur to me. I didn't realize that such a bonus came from wild shape. Hmm. While typing this I'm reading the rules and I don't see anything in wild shape or beast shape which grants me the grapple bonus of the creature I become. The size bonus would help (+1) and STR bonus a bit too (+2). But that doesn't get me anywhere near what I need.
Also, I have another question. The rules for whirlwind state that the whirlwind listing in a creature stat block will look like this:
Format: whirlwind (3/day, 10–30 ft. high, 1d6+6 damage, DC 15)
However, the air elemental omits how many times per day! Does that mean unlimited? Or none and it's a fake ability that doesn't actually happen?
Also if your adversary is medium, turning into gargantuan sized creature prevents him from grappling you.
If you can only manage huge, reduce person can be cast on opponent to help.
You can also cast freedom of movement.
Also its obvious your dm built an adversary specifically to kill you. He is a douchebag.
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With grapple there are no size restrictions.
With the grab ability there are.
So a halfling tetori could grapple a huge whirlwind elemental with no problem.
Now here is the fun situation. The grappler has grappled the whirlwind and failed his save to be picked up. So now the whirlwind can't move because it is grappled and the grappler can't move cause he is trapped in the whirlwind. No one is going anywhere.
If i were the whirlwind I would just take the total defense action, increasing my CMD or just spend my standard to escape with a CMB check.
You can also cast freedom of movement.
Also its obvious your dm built an adversary specifically to kill you. He is a douchebag.
The druid could cast freedom of movement assuming the druid is of sufficient level to cast it, it is prepared and that the druid makes the concentration check to cast a spell while grappled.
We don't know for certain that the GM created the monster to kill the druid.
If he is able to shift into an elemental then he is most likely at least level 6. Which cant cast the spell. Any higher and he can.
Maybe your right, but seems to me that is how it is. However, does the druid have an animal companion? Where are the other pc's, why arnt they helping. Are they tied up with their own threats that can single handedly kill them as well.
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grapple rules does not limit size that can grapple, so medium can do huge. You may be thinking of the grab rules that do limit size that can grab. As for options, turn into a large cat and claw and bite him till he drops you. Or fire elemental and burn him as you slam him. If he has you grappled and only doing one weapon damage around and you are doing more than he will let you go. Been there and have found that sometimes grappling isnt worth it. Also remember that the other shapes give other stat boosts so maybe more HP or strenth could have helped.
I was thinking of grab rules.
You can also cast freedom of movement. . . .
That was my first thought. It's a 4th level spell, so it's available to a 7th level and higher druid.
At 6th level, a druid can wild shape into a small elemental.
At 8th level, a druid can wild shape into a Medium elemental.
At 10th level, a druid can wild shape into a Large elemental.
At 12th level, a druid can wild shape into a Huge elemental.
For some reason I would guess the grappler is at least medium which would mean the druid would need to be 10th level to snag him with the whirlwind. So freedom of movement could be an option if this is accurate.
Turn into a Large Fire elemental and add burn or an Large Earth Elemental and use the 2d6 slam with the +1 Earth Mastery bonus maybe... Can you turn into a black lotus plant? ;)
Edit: After a quick search for anti grapple, I noticed this thread...
Transforming into a creature with a better grapple check didn't occur to me. I didn't realize that such a bonus came from wild shape. Hmm. While typing this I'm reading the rules and I don't see anything in wild shape or beast shape which grants me the grapple bonus of the creature I become. The size bonus would help (+1) and STR bonus a bit too (+2). But that doesn't get me anywhere near what I need.
Also, I have another question. The rules for whirlwind state that the whirlwind listing in a creature stat block will look like this:
Format: whirlwind (3/day, 10–30 ft. high, 1d6+6 damage, DC 15)However, the air elemental omits how many times per day! Does that mean unlimited? Or none and it's a fake ability that doesn't actually happen?
No one said to transform in a creature with better grapple but in a creature with constrict which will surely do more damage than your foe, and for the Air Elemental since ther's no daily restriction written then it's at will for me... ;)
Constrict does nothing unless you succeed in a grapple check. Just being in a grapple does not do it.
D id you know that being grappled prevents either of you from moving?
Did you know that grabbing your buddies hand could arguably make you immune to teleporting, falling, pushing, shoving driving/riding or any other kind of movement?
Yes! You cab grab onto that bird in the sky and freeze both of you to that exact spot...
Did you know that if you grapple with lunge (or another form of reach) you move him to any square next to you, stipulation free?
Grappling makes a better repositioner then the reposition maneuver...
Did you know that you can grapple someone with an arrow shot from a bow and use hatamutsu strike to instantly teleport them to you, and locked in your grasp? Did you know that you can then shoot them with that bow while grappled?
Did you know that a goblin feral gnasher barbarian can get an infinite attack chain going with grappling?
Did you know that the monster feat noxious bite nauseates the target (or any other effect that nauseates)?
Did you know that a nauseated crearure cannot even make checks to escape a grapple?
It may be next to impossible for a giant to hit that tiny pixie with a dagger, but a belly fop is almost garenteed to succeed (then you can stab it with the dagger)
Did you know that being grappled gives you penalties, including a dex penalty, and that reduces your CMD making it even easier to grapple you?
Did you know that there are actually two different kinds of grapple checks and they are worded so similarly that it took me years to underatand the difference?
The difference between maintaining a grapple and starting/iniating a grapple can be vastly different and use different modifiers and special rules. A quick example is animal fury which only works when maintaining a grapple.
There are also 2 different grappled conditions (being the grappler and being grappled) and 2 different phases of grappling (the turn you grapple is handled a bit differently then the turns after you are grappled are handled a bit differently, for instance +5 on tje turns after you inniate a grapple. )
Did you know that the grapple rules are stupidly complicated and even the "simplified" rule chart is brutal to understand?
Basically you CAN grab the wind and pin it to the ground, but you also CAN do other stupid stuff with it as well...
Dont get me wrong, i really like the concept of grappling, but it was poorly done, rules wise :)
Constrict does nothing unless you succeed in a grapple check. Just being in a grapple does not do it.
Strangely, by RAW, if you transform in a creature with the Grab ability you can make a standard attack while grappled so you can use Grab thus make a Grappling check while grappled... And Grab gives you +4 on grapple check so combined with size it can help you a lot... ;)
Oh and something a lot of DM forgot : the grappler has the grappled condition too...
Oh, I have a question : is a grappled character considered has being in a grappling ? And can you rake while being graplled ?
That question was a bit poorly worded, but i think you are asking if the person in control of the grapple has the grappled condition then yes. They both get the grappled condition.
As for raking, i dont know. Im going to find out :)
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So... what were your party members doing while this was happening?
Oh and something a lot of DM forgot : the grappler has the grappled condition too...
Oh, I have a question : is a grappled character considered has being in a grappling ? And can you rake while being graplled ?
Yup.
EDIT: Rake can be used on a "grappled" opponent, and as you say, the controlling character is still grappled. To prevent rake, the controller has to pin its opponent, which prevents attacks/physical actions.
Gang,
Thank you so much for all the help. I think next time I die in a grapple, I will definitely be able to try the fire elemental or large raking option first.
For those that asked about the fight, I'm level 10 and trying the whirlwind for the first time as large vs. medium enemy. In fact, it is the first time I've ever done the whirlwind (no small opponents, so I had to wait until my whirlwind was large for it to work), and it is the first time the DM had ever seen or heard of the ability. I just happened to pick up the wrong guy, and the DM happened to try the one thing that might utterly ruin whirlwind, on her first try. Unfortunately, it kinda wrecked my dreams of whirlwinding around the battlefield for many games to come, because once the DM saw what grapple did, I knew she was like, "Yes! Doing this FOREVER!"
In any case, I think I found my out. I may not be dead. This enemy DID land the initial grapple using the Grab ability. And if I understand it correctly, as of Bestiary 2, Grab limits it so that the grapple target can only be the same size or smaller. That medium monster should never have been able to start that grapple against me while I was large. Do you agree that this is the case?
(I'm not 100% sure it's true even though I'm looking right at the rules, because other people in this topic are talking about a "two size category" difference. I can't find that text anywhere.)
I'm pretty sure that if the grapple is legit, the auto death is legit too. I don't have the CMB to break the grapple, and he can deal more HP damage than I can sustain. It IS auto death, which is why I was hoping for some way around the grapple entirely.
Transforming into a creature with a better grapple check didn't occur to me. I didn't realize that such a bonus came from wild shape. Hmm. While typing this I'm reading the rules and I don't see anything in wild shape or beast shape which grants me the grapple bonus of the creature I become. The size bonus would help (+1) and STR bonus a bit too (+2). But that doesn't get me anywhere near what I need.
Also, I have another question. The rules for whirlwind state that the whirlwind listing in a creature stat block will look like this:
Format: whirlwind (3/day, 10–30 ft. high, 1d6+6 damage, DC 15)However, the air elemental omits how many times per day! Does that mean unlimited? Or none and it's a fake ability that doesn't actually happen?
If you wildshape into a form with multiple attacks such as a tiger or dire tiger then you can still full round attack while grappled. The grappler can only damage you with grapples, and maybe constrict if it has the constrict ability. You should win the damage race assuming you did not dump strength and his CR is not well above your character level.
You are correct. A medium sized creature could not grab you if you are large. He would have to use the normal grapple rules.
If you wildshape into a form with multiple attacks such as a tiger or dire tiger then you can still full round attack while grappled. The grappler can only damage you with grapples, and maybe constrict if it has the constrict ability. You should win the damage race assuming you did not dump strength and his CR is not well above your character level.I'm pretty sure that if the grapple is legit, the auto death is legit too. I don't have the CMB to break the grapple, and he can deal more HP damage than I can sustain. It IS auto death, which is why I was hoping for some way around the grapple entirely.
Transforming into a creature with a better grapple check didn't occur to me. I didn't realize that such a bonus came from wild shape. Hmm. While typing this I'm reading the rules and I don't see anything in wild shape or beast shape which grants me the grapple bonus of the creature I become. The size bonus would help (+1) and STR bonus a bit too (+2). But that doesn't get me anywhere near what I need.
Also, I have another question. The rules for whirlwind state that the whirlwind listing in a creature stat block will look like this:
Format: whirlwind (3/day, 10–30 ft. high, 1d6+6 damage, DC 15)However, the air elemental omits how many times per day! Does that mean unlimited? Or none and it's a fake ability that doesn't actually happen?
Exactly what he said : The grappler can only do a single attack (it is a standard action to maintain a grapple, and that only allows 1 attack), while you can do your whole routine or use the whirlwind attack as normal (including the lifted in the air part).
It is a suicide for the grappler here, not for the grappled one... ^^
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Would this work?
Since you can choose which square of your 30' tall whirlwind he occupies, you place him at the top. Then you change form to say a fire elemental, a tiger, whatever you like that auto deals damage or has rake abilities, etc. He falls 30' to the ground, potentially taking damage and going prone. Should he re-engage the grapple he is now taking constant fire damage or rake spam from the tiger... he dies.
Would this work?
Since you can choose which square of your 30' tall whirlwind he occupies, you place him at the top. Then you change form to say a fire elemental, a tiger, whatever you like that auto deals damage or has rake abilities, etc. He falls 30' to the ground, potentially taking damage and going prone. Should he re-engage the grapple he is now taking constant fire damage or rake spam from the tiger... he dies.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty toDexterity
. A grappled
creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make aconcentration
check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
the section thaf is up for debate is the bolded portion. The question is how much movement is not allowed. Some gms (like this one) interpet it to include walking, flying and the like. Others include teleporting and planes hopping as a "form of movement" and are also negated.
If you are 30ft in the air and grappled, you dont move. You are an imovable rod...Now, if the GM wants to play that way, you can follow suit. Next level change out your animal companion for one that is a grapple machine.
Next character play a tidori monk (affectonatly known as a cruise missile by some ^_^), especially at 10th lvl. Blow in there with massive movement, grapple with an iron grip, then tie them up next grapple check. 1 opponet taken out of the fight. Rinse, repeat.
Gobo Horde: check your PMs, sir! :P :D