Morning all!
As I understand it, this question is already in the FAQ queue, so it will get answered... in the future. But I would like to poll opinions.
Important Links:
Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity.
Firearm Rules
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.
Ammunition Rules
Metal Cartridges:
These sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges serve as the ammunition for advanced firearms. They can hold either bullets or pellets.
Metal Cartridge description
Normally, between my GM and myself, we can solve every rules question. In this case, we are unsure about the following questions:
1. Are Metal Cartridges like Alchemical Cartridges in regard to reloading speed and misfire chance? The description would say so and the text about reloading speed is before the description of the various ammunition types.
2. If you say yes to the first question: Would this reduce the reloading speed of an advanced firearm (like in the case of an early firearm)? I would like to know, WHY you think it's yes or no.
I think my GM will also look at this thread. For us this will be important next tuesday as I have acquired a advanced firearm... So I hope for a good discussion.
As a side question: Is it possible to chance the material of the bullet in Metal Cartridges? Or build a Flare Metal Cartridge?
No. Metal cartridges are the basic ammunition for advanced firearms. You can't use anything more primitive, so they load at the base rate for advanced firearms.
For 1 and 2, the answer is no, clearly no, no need to faq, no controversy.
Leaving common sense aside and just quoting the firearms rules:
Quote: Early firearms are typically matchlock, wheellock, or flintlock weapons, and require more finesse and care to use than advanced firearms. Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring a bullet and powder (or other special alchemical substances) to be shoved down the barrel before the weapon is fired. Early firearm ammunition can be loaded from a cartridge, but that cartridge is made of soft material (like paper or cloth) that is torn open so that the contents may be shoved down the barrel. Quote: Advanced firearms are more reliable and accurate than early firearms. The ammunition of an advanced firearm takes the form of metal (usually brass) cartridges that are loaded into a chamber rather than shoved down the muzzle. Advanced firearms take metal cartridges ONLY.
Even if advanced firearms only use metal cartridges, that doesn't imply an automatic reflection in the reloading speed section. At the moment, no other ammunition is usable, but this doesn't mean that there never will be. So, I'm not sure about that.
So, what I basically would like to hear: Why do you think that there is automatic feedback between "use of metal cartridges" and "general rule about reloading advanced firearms"?
Maybe there is a precedent about connections like these?
And, if you are talking about common sense: My character can reload muskets (early twohanded firearm) as a free action...
Jeremias wrote: Even if advanced firearms only use metal cartridges, that doesn't imply an automatic reflection in the reloading speed section. At the moment, no other ammunition is usable, but this doesn't mean that there never will be. So, I'm not sure about that.
So, what I basically would like to hear: Why do you think that there is automatic feedback between "use of metal cartridges" and "general rule about reloading advanced firearms"?
Maybe there is a precedent about connections like these?
And, if you are talking about common sense: My character can reload muskets (early twohanded firearm) as a free action...
Advanced firearms do use metal cartridges only as ammunition, therefore the listed reload time on advanced firearms reflects this by default. As far as written rules support for faster reloads of advanced firearms, there is none. I don't think they were expected to be used in any kind of official play, so rules were not supplied for them. As far as sensible house rules, I would consider it reasonable to apply abilities or feats that allow faster reload of primative firearms to apply to advanced ones, such as Rapid Reload or the musketeer archetype ability.
The ammo rules are pretty cut and dry though.
I still don't understand understand why the listed reload time reflects the use of cartridges by default. Maybe this is a language thing?
And I don't mean written rules about the reloading. I mean other examples for rules like that ("You can only use X with Y, so the defining factor of X is already incorporated in the rules of Y"). Or is this a singular problem with firearms?
And "Fast Musket" (the class ability) already applies to advanced firearms:
"At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm."
Problem is, one-handed advanced firearms reload as fast as two-handed advanced firearms.
Jeremias wrote: I still don't understand understand why the listed reload time reflects the use of cartridges by default. Maybe this is a language thing?
And I don't mean written rules about the reloading. I mean other examples for rules like that ("You can only use X with Y, so the defining factor of X is already incorporated in the rules of Y"). Or is this a singular problem with firearms?
And "Fast Musket" (the class ability) already applies to advanced firearms:
"At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm."
Problem is, one-handed advanced firearms reload as fast as two-handed advanced firearms.
The real problem is Rapid Reload sets how long it takes to reload instead of speeding it up one step.
Using Rapid Reload, it take a move action to reload a one-handed firearm. Which is already how long it takes to reload an advanced firearm.
If Rapid Reload had been written something like: "Reload time is shortened by one step: Full->Standard, Standard->Move, Move->free", then it'd work.
@thejeff
True. In that point I'm lucky as my GM already cleared for Rapid Reload to work in the way you are depicting it. :)
Then you're cool. You can reload one-handed advanced fireams as a free action. Two-handed if you've got Fast Musket.
No need to reduce it any further.
I'd also allow all (or at least most) of the special Alchemical cartridges and special material bullets to be made into metal cartridges.
@thejeff
Yeah, but I'm asking if it is necessary. I already have a few feats as I am Level 8 at the moment. Maybe I can retrain my bonus feat...
Yes, it will be necessary for you to take Rapid Reload if you want free-action reloading for an advanced firearm.
Ipslore the Red wrote: Yes, it will be necessary for you to take Rapid Reload if you want free-action reloading for an advanced firearm. Rapid reload doesn't help, though. It defines the new reload time. A one handed firearm can now be reloaded as a move action... just like it already could be.
Read the thread, his DM has ruled that it just reduces the time by one step.
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