its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.
also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.
only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.
Nope, MoMS + Sacred fist.its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.
also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.
only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.
^^^ This
honestly I feel like the MoMS 2/Sacred Fist X will probably become the standard for Unarmed Martial experts... I mean, the Sacred Fist is just full of awesome-ness and that 2 level dip into MoMS just makes them stupid mean (especially with their double dip Wis to AC)
|
level 20 is a bad place to examine things for brokeness. You're kind of expected to be playing rocket tag at that point.
Yeah, Paladins and Cavaliers can already break the 1000 hit point barrier with charge attacks at that point, as can pouncing Barbarians, this is just opening the door for unarmed fighters to join the club.
I prefer MoMS 1 + Sacred fist, I can't come up with a second style that is worth activating over casting divine favor off fervor early on.Nope, MoMS + Sacred fist.its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.
also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.
only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.
^^^ This
honestly I feel like the MoMS 2/Sacred Fist X will probably become the standard for Unarmed Martial experts... I mean, the Sacred Fist is just full of awesome-ness and that 2 level dip into MoMS just makes them stupid mean (especially with their double dip Wis to AC)
dragon style is helpful for getting around (or rather through/over) terrain and getting full elemental fist advancement (which is very helpful for damage output), snake is useful for defense and countering, panther works great if you provoke while moving (especially paired with vicious stomp and later greater rip: panther parry to trip, stomp, then gtr. trip AoO). boar has its uses for impale, monkey for defensive and mobility shenanigans, shaitan (the water/ice one?) works great with dragon+elemental fist for some debuffing goodies, and so on.
i'm rating them in that order, btw. also does that flying kick style (djinni i think?) work with pummeling style?
also what are the sources on their wis-to-ac abilities, since they might not stack.
.
also just realized my suggested fix still opens the door for things like crusader cleric (shizuru) 1/monk X with crusader's flurry to pummeling style with a katana for crazy crit shenanigans.
How about shocking grasp magus? I bet you could get some insane damage if you can add your intensified maximized empowered shocking grasp to the damage.
|
|
How about shocking grasp magus? I bet you could get some insane damage if you can add your intensified maximized empowered shocking grasp to the damage.
You wouldn't be able to use Spell Combat to do it. Spell Combat is a full round action as is a Pummeling Style attack. You could cast a spell and then hold the charge, and use it with pummeling style on your next turn.
How about shocking grasp magus? I bet you could get some insane damage if you can add your intensified maximized empowered shocking grasp to the damage.You wouldn't be able to use Spell Combat to do it. Spell Combat is a full round action as is a Pummeling Style attack. You could cast a spell and then hold the charge, and use it with pummeling style on your next turn.
Yeah that was what i was imagining.
|
Nope, MoMS + Sacred fist.its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.
also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.
only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.
On that matter, also MoMS/2+Brawler/X.
|
|
I prefer MoMS 1 + Sacred fist, I can't come up with a second style that is worth activating over casting divine favor off fervor early on.Nope, MoMS + Sacred fist.its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.
also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.
only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.
^^^ This
honestly I feel like the MoMS 2/Sacred Fist X will probably become the standard for Unarmed Martial experts... I mean, the Sacred Fist is just full of awesome-ness and that 2 level dip into MoMS just makes them stupid mean (especially with their double dip Wis to AC)
That's if the double dip Wis to AC is allowed. Most PFS tables won't accept it :T
I agree though, it's probably the most Monk-like Monk in the game through this combination that actually doesn't suck. That and MoMS 2 + Brawler.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I prefer MoMS 1 + Sacred fist, I can't come up with a second style that is worth activating over casting divine favor off fervor early on.Nope, MoMS + Sacred fist.its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.
also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.
only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.
^^^ This
honestly I feel like the MoMS 2/Sacred Fist X will probably become the standard for Unarmed Martial experts... I mean, the Sacred Fist is just full of awesome-ness and that 2 level dip into MoMS just makes them stupid mean (especially with their double dip Wis to AC)
That's if the double dip Wis to AC is allowed. Most PFS tables won't accept it :T
I agree though, it's probably the most Monk-like Monk in the game through this combination that actually doesn't suck. That and MoMS 2 + Brawler.
Don't see why not, 2 seperate classes, 2 seperate ability names, 2 seperate types (one is Ex the other is Su), and both are untyped. That is the very definition of stackable xD
look at dragon ferocity again, and how it interacts with elemental fist.
it's a lot more than 1d6 1/day, because you're treated as a monk of the 4 winds for the purpose of EF's advancement.
Special: A monk of the four winds receives Elemental Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt an Elemental Fist attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
At 1st level, a monk of the four winds gains Elemental Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, the monk increases the damage of his Elemental Fist by 1d6 (2d6 at 5th level, 3d6 at 10th level, and so on).
emphasis mine.
it's a bit more often than 1-2-3/day, but you've got the damage pegged. being able to hit any elemental weakness (other than sonic and force) is handy, as is extra damage.
your post is a tad unfair since literally ANY damage is worse than a +1 to hit (regardless of how high one's damage is, if he can't hit anything that number is effectively 0), unless you're a class such as fighter/ranger/slayer/barbarian/paladin/cavalier who already has stupid-high accuracy (even after power attack) due to full BAB and their various class abilities, at which point the damage is a nice touch.
This feat looks like a job.....for the FAQ!
Don't see why not, 2 seperate classes, 2 seperate ability names, 2 seperate types (one is Ex the other is Su), and both are untyped. That is the very definition of stackable xDWe're still waiting on the FAQ but the only designer word on such is that an ability score counts as a source and thus doesn't stack with itself. I find it a tad ridiculous but that is the last word that paizo has given thus far.
True. I hope this gets cleared up because it can cause problems for tables like mine where my GM is a very RAW player (in fact, if you can legitimately explain how it works by RAW he will allow it, regardless of how stupid it amy sound xD... granted at the same time he holds no punches vs us either lol)
|
|
Just to jump into the fray regarding this Feat, and since no dev has jumped in to clarify, I had a Zen Archer utilize this feat to devastating effect.
An 11 lvl Zen Archer utilizing flurry and haste allowing it seven(?) attacks in a single round. With his high "to hit" roll, he was putting everything down in one round with this feat. If you say four hits with one crit at x3 each for the bow, this feat absolutely needs to be re-defined.
For Monks who aren't Zen Archer's, a x2 bonus isn't as bad, but still at level 11 a hasted monk could still use this to devastating effect with 7 attacks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't see why not, 2 seperate classes, 2 seperate ability names, 2 seperate types (one is Ex the other is Su), and both are untyped. That is the very definition of stackable xDWe're still waiting on the FAQ but the only designer word on such is that an ability score counts as a source and thus doesn't stack with itself. I find it a tad ridiculous but that is the last word that paizo has given thus far.
Well, to be completely accurate, He's said both that they can stack and that they can't in different posts. If you're looking for a clear answer, James isn't what you're looking for.
Well, to be completely accurate, He's said both that they can stack and that they can't in different posts. If you're looking for a clear answer, James isn't what you're looking for.Don't see why not, 2 seperate classes, 2 seperate ability names, 2 seperate types (one is Ex the other is Su), and both are untyped. That is the very definition of stackable xDWe're still waiting on the FAQ but the only designer word on such is that an ability score counts as a source and thus doesn't stack with itself. I find it a tad ridiculous but that is the last word that paizo has given thus far.
since it pertains to the monk, i'd hazard a guess that SKR wouldn't be very helpful either.
I am a little rusty on monk stuff but why/how would pummeling strike work with weapons (any weapons) if it had a clause requiring all of your attacks to be unarmed attacks? (not monk weapon attacks, just unarmed attacks)
|
|
I am a little rusty on monk stuff but why/how would pummeling strike work with weapons (any weapons) if it had a clause requiring all of your attacks to be unarmed attacks? (not monk weapon attacks, just unarmed attacks)
It wouldn't, if there was such a clause. There isn't any in the feat text beyond the vague use of the word "punch". There is the table description on pg 140, but that isn't actually part of the feat.
It's clear that it was intended to be unarmed only, but due to poor editing, it allows any weapon RAW because it isn't explicitly stated as such.
|
|
Don't see why not, 2 seperate classes, 2 seperate ability names, 2 seperate types (one is Ex the other is Su), and both are untyped. That is the very definition of stackable xDI prefer MoMS 1 + Sacred fist, I can't come up with a second style that is worth activating over casting divine favor off fervor early on.Nope, MoMS + Sacred fist.its nice to see other folks have seen the ip man movies.
also, if you limit it only to characters with the flurry of blows or brawler's flurry abilities, and with only unarmed attacks, melee-only 'monk' weapons (allowing for use with things like the temple sword and such), and the close weapon group (for cestus/gauntlet/brss knuckles/other faesible "punching" weapons), it completely removes the issue of MoMS abusing it, since they dont get flurry, and ZA, since bows arent melee weapons.
only monk abuser that benefits in that case is the sohei, and they can already go for pounce via completely prereq free mounted skirmisher, since their bonus feat list is literally "all mounted combat feats" without any level distinctions set to avoid such abuse.
^^^ This
honestly I feel like the MoMS 2/Sacred Fist X will probably become the standard for Unarmed Martial experts... I mean, the Sacred Fist is just full of awesome-ness and that 2 level dip into MoMS just makes them stupid mean (especially with their double dip Wis to AC)
That's if the double dip Wis to AC is allowed. Most PFS tables won't accept it :T
I agree though, it's probably the most Monk-like Monk in the game through this combination that actually doesn't suck. That and MoMS 2 + Brawler.
I definitely agree and disagree at the same time haha. I mean the writers even had AMPLE chance to throw in "like the Monk ability of the same name" just one more time, like they did 3 other times in the Archetype, and they were CLEARLY thinking of the Monk whilst building the Archetype too. That option alone would have instantly cleared it up.
*shrugs*
Also, I tried to bring this to a PFS table(through email, beforehand, respectfully) at Atomic Empire in Durham, NC; and they just went with "it doesn't stack because of the same name".
|
|
I am a little rusty on monk stuff but why/how would pummeling strike work with weapons (any weapons) if it had a clause requiring all of your attacks to be unarmed attacks? (not monk weapon attacks, just unarmed attacks)
It wouldn't; but all the Martials want it to really badly. Thus the chaos begins :D
The RAI is quite clear, but the RAW is screwy. I just don't understand how they go through ALL of the playtesting, and revisions of the book(and this isn't even a big book), yet somehow miss REALLY important things like this.
I really wish I understood their work environment, and processes better. I want to just hover over one of the developer's shoulders, and yell "Watch out!" and "Hey, Listen!"... oh and of course watch them work.
I know about the current state of the feat and the chaos it has unleashed, that's what i said if.
I made the question because some people said that even if it worked with unarmed attacks only then there were still ways to get it to work with weapons.
|
|
I know about the current state of the feat and the chaos it has unleashed, that's what i said if.
I made the question because some people said that even if it worked with unarmed attacks only then there were still ways to get it to work with weapons.
That involves a very liberal use of the human feat Martial Versatility and would allow weapons of the close combat weapon group.
I'm inclined to think that it doesn't work, because the specific weapon example applies to a weapon that can be chosen, not one that is specified by the feat.
It's the same trick people used to try to get Dervish Dance to work with Falcatas.
Ok i see how it can be read that way but that's a very liberal reading indeed.
It's the same trick people used to try to get Dervish Dance to work with Falcatas.
*shudder*
actually cant one use slashing grace with a falcata? i mean it's one-handed and slashing if memory serves
Pummeling Style's flavor can be the same, but the mechanics should work like clustered shots at best. You just pool your damage and subtract DR once. That is about as good as I will allow it to be at my table.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Clustered shots has the advantage that it is from range, Pummeling style has the advantage that you can use it on a charge and the crits apply.
You might disagree, but I see the balance between the two feats.
prototype00
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pummeling Style's flavor can be the same, but the mechanics should work like clustered shots at best. You just pool your damage and subtract DR once. That is about as good as I will allow it to be at my table.
Yeah, how dare those unarmed combatants try to actually be both mobile and capable of being a threat. Shame on them.
As the DM, you say "Pummeling Style only works with unarmed strikes," and poof, it's not unbalancing at all.
All I can say is that it took my awesome Brawler build (Fighter archetype, not ACG) and put him completely over the top.
In a good way!
The way I see it Pummeling Style is not Dragon Style. I would just ban MoMS dips.
The crit fishing is pretty dumb though.
Clustered shots has the advantage that it is from range, Pummeling style has the advantage that you can use it on a charge and the crits apply.
You might disagree, but I see the balance between the two feats.
prototype00
My problem with the feat was how it affected crits. If clustered shots did damage in the same manner as pummeling style I would nerf that too.
|
My problem with the feat was how it affected crits. If clustered shots did damage in the same manner as pummeling style I would nerf that too.Clustered shots has the advantage that it is from range, Pummeling style has the advantage that you can use it on a charge and the crits apply.
You might disagree, but I see the balance between the two feats.
prototype00
I'd personally like to see it be a little better than clustered shots(still apply concealment only once), and then either wipe out the crit stuff entirely, or only work it with unarmed strikes(because unarmed fighters do need a bit of crit love.
I'd personally like to see it be a little better than clustered shots(still apply concealment only once), and then either wipe out the crit stuff entirely, or only work it with unarmed strikes(because unarmed fighters do need a bit of crit love.My problem with the feat was how it affected crits. If clustered shots did damage in the same manner as pummeling style I would nerf that too.Clustered shots has the advantage that it is from range, Pummeling style has the advantage that you can use it on a charge and the crits apply.
You might disagree, but I see the balance between the two feats.
prototype00
That is a good point about only applying concealment once, since it is supposed to be one attack, but I guess not losing all of the damage to one bad d100 roll also has advantages.
|
|
That is a good point about only applying concealment once, since it is supposed to be one attack, but I guess not losing all of the damage to one bad d100 roll also has advantages.I'd personally like to see it be a little better than clustered shots(still apply concealment only once), and then either wipe out the crit stuff entirely, or only work it with unarmed strikes(because unarmed fighters do need a bit of crit love.My problem with the feat was how it affected crits. If clustered shots did damage in the same manner as pummeling style I would nerf that too.Clustered shots has the advantage that it is from range, Pummeling style has the advantage that you can use it on a charge and the crits apply.
You might disagree, but I see the balance between the two feats.
prototype00
Certainly improves the value of Blind Fight though.
|
|
It's the same trick people used to try to get Dervish Dance to work with Falcatas.*shudder*I genuinely don't understand why this is a bad thing. I mean, dex to damage for two feats, but you've got to use a specific weapon in a specific style is not actually great. People don't do it because it's awesomely OP, they do it because they want to play dex-based melee. Which is not unreasonable.
Spending a third feat and either a fourth feat or 1500 gold to change the weapon for a slightly better one... so what? Why is that unreasonable? Why is it fine for a pair of feats to allow dex-to-hit and dex-to-damage for one specific weapon which by default doesn't even finessable normally, but not okay to spend the third this way?
There's only two things really wrong with this: a) it's racial, and b) that some people who took it are going to be sad because they'd have been better off with slashing grace.
Yes, and they can do that with slashing grace. I don't have a problem with dex to damage. I have a problem with a feat that is for saranrae cultists to use dex to damage with scimitars to use that feat with weapons that have no meaning to the dawnflower cult.