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These are questions for the developers:
How soon will firearms be implemented?
What will be the advantages and drawbacks of firearm usage?
What kinds of firearms can we expect to see?
What crafting skill(s) will be used to create firearms?
Goblin Squad Member
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Because this is what we want the developers doing right now, instead of finishing up the MVP for release this month.
How does "later" and "not decided yet" suit you?
Why the harsh reply? It is a fair question from a recently added Alpha player. The Devs can choose to answer or not as they see fit. Way to go to welcome new players and their questions...
@OP:
We don't know, and don't expect firearms to be included for a long time (if at all). :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I understand, firearm proficiencies/feats are already in the developers' data sets, although not implemented yet. So we know that GW is keeping the option to include guns on the table. Sounds like a great idea to put on the Ideascale page to me. (For later. We need tool tips more than flintlocks right now.)
The reason I asked is because, as someone mentioned, the firearms skill is already in the game, which leads me to believe they may actually be included very soon.
This is really interesting to me as I too had assumed it would take a long time before they made it into game but when you think about it, it really won't take much work once crossbows are in.
So I opened up this line of questions.
Azure Orbs are way more important that firearms just saying :P
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As far a Pathfinder setting style goes, Firearms are pretty darn important given their history throughout the Inner Sea Region. That being said they are supposed to be rare, very rare in fact, and extremely expensive. To me that means they have plenty of time before they need to worry about getting them into the game simply because PCs wont even be close to the level of expertise they need to access them.
Besides that, I think implementing the core Roles of the game should probably come in the order that makes the most sense, in order of ease to implement that is. They still have a LOT of work to do on ranged attacks in general from spells to the bow and in the long term I'd rather them take their time to make sure the ranged combat system is ready for serious PvE and PvP before the implement the even 1 more Class Role, let alone Gunslinger.
All that being said, I'd like to think we can make PFO such a success that they will have to money to hire more programmers to make all of our favorite Roles in a timely manner, I personally hope for the Core, Advanced Players Guide, and Ultimate Combat/Magic Roles by the end of 2017 if Lisa can work her Golem magic with this project too.
The implementation of firearms and the gunslinger class don't have to come at the same time. In Pathfinder any classes are able to use firearms if they take the needed feat.
In Pathfinder Online we have a few builds already that would function quite well with a firearm as the primary weapon and even more builds that could benefit from their use as a secondary weapon.
So what do we need to implement firearms?
1. Running with a firearm and firing a firearm animations. Rifle animations could actually function identically to crossbow animations. A core rulebook weapon that also already has skills in game.
2. Firearm models.
3. Firearm abilities.
4. Firearm crafting recipes.
5. Firearm sounds.
A detailed firearms system with pistols that can be single or dual wielded, gunslingers, and all that kind of stuff is probably a long way down the road but I wouldn't be surprised to see rifles much, much sooner.
Also making an entire category of weapons "rare" would be quite harsh in a game with gear loss, but I do think making them more difficult to produce makes sense. It may make sense if there are weapon smithing, alchemy, and engineering prerequisites to start training gun smithing, and if guns were to have long production timers.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Cost of production isn't a great way to balance firearms with crossbows. Ammunition costs would have to be so expensive that many people chose not to use firearms to balance a significant advantage.
But making firearms higher damage and capable of exploiting but not creating conditionals seems like a fair idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cost of production isn't a great way to balance firearms with crossbows. Ammunition costs would have to be so expensive that many people chose not to use firearms to balance a significant advantage.
But making firearms higher damage and capable of exploiting but not creating conditionals seems like a fair idea.
In serious PvP cost of production or ammunition is not a serious consideration. If firearms give substantial advantages (especially pistols in melee) they will become essential in higher level PvP.
If necessary people will run crafting and trading alts to finance their PvP exploits. if production of firearms or ammo has a high failure rate they will get the alt to grind production of those items.
Should you want to limit a PvP weapon you cannot rely on cost to do that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cost of production isn't a great way to balance firearms with crossbows.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................ WHAT?!
You're kidding right? PvP is the place cost is the BIGGEST factor because it's the place you are most likely to lose your stuff.
That's why dragon armor and top tier weapons were a rarity in the original Darkfall and you don't see people running around in null sec with officer modules in EVE. Cost vs. efficiency is a MAJOR consideration for any serious PvPer.
It's PvE/No-Gearloss games like WoW where it's worth it to pay any amount of coin for that tiny extra edge because it's permanent.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Cost of production isn't a great way to balance firearms with crossbows.Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................ WHAT?!
You're kidding right? PvP is the place cost is the BIGGEST factor because it's the place you are most likely to lose your stuff.
That's why dragon armor and top tier weapons were a rarity in the original Darkfall and you don't see people running around in null sec with officer modules in EVE. Cost vs. efficiency is a MAJOR consideration for any serious PvPer.
It's PvE/No-Gearloss games like WoW where it's worth it to pay any amount of coin for that tiny extra edge because it's permanent.
How effective would firearms and ammunition have to be, compared to bows and arrows, in order for you to ask yourself if they were worth 3x the cost of raw materials and time to produce?
Put another way, if a character with a firearm can fill a role that cannot be filled by one character with any other weapon, how expensive would firearms have to be for you to prefer to assign two players to that role?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It depends. How important is the objective we are fighting over? How much do I personally care about the cause this objective is attached to? What are our chances of dying? How effective is that advantage in that particular situation? Who is providing the firearm and who will pay for the replacement if it's lost? How much training does the player this firearm is for have in firearms as opposed to other ranged weapons?
For general play a small benefit increase for a substantial price increase just isn't worth it if there is much risk involved.
For instance running around enemy lands with a small group of people just hunting for kills to hurt their economy and morale, it makes sense to go with a cheaper option unless I am very confident in my ability to not die. That same logic probably applies to anyone they send to hunt me or else losses of those soldiers will actually further my objective considerably while any losses they inflict against my forces will be quick/easy to recover from. And I'd be especially happy to find their PvEers are gatherers are losing firearms when I kill them.
If I'm fighting over the fate of my settlement that I've been working on for months or years and a follow up siege isn't likely if we win then I'm going to spend considerable coin for any edge I can get.
But if I've invested all my training in bows or crossbows because that's what I use 99% of the time and they actually have the edge because of that then they are the clear choice 100% of the time until I have time to train firearms to give sufficient advantage to be worth the price.
This is the kind of crap you can't learn playing WoW or chess (nor through your education apparently) that games like EVE and Darkfall can teach you. I greatly look forward to fighting you if you feel investing in the most expensive gear possible, even if it only gives a very slight edge, will always be the best idea and cost is not a meaningful balance factor.
This is like Open World PvP 101. We're talking basics here right now. "Don't use what you can't afford to lose" is the VERY first lesson I teach recruits in these kind of games. I could have sworn I've already taught it to you as well. If you're expecting to serve in any kind of leadership capacity in this game you should already know this stuff, and a lot more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is the kind of crap you can't learn playing WoW or chess (nor through your education apparently) that games like EVE and Darkfall can teach you. I greatly look forward to fighting you if you feel investing in the most expensive gear possible, even if it only gives a very slight edge, will always be the best idea and cost is not a meaningful balance factor.
Andius. Decius question is a good one and was in no way an attack on you. The attack you just made toward Decius was no way called for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a direct reference to an earlier conversation where Decius was going on about how experience from previous titles was not that useful and I needed to get educated in all kinds of different theories instead.
Just as with real world employers, practical experience is going to matter a hell of a lot more here than book knowledge and theory as I feel has been clearly demonstrated here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right. And more expensive items take more threads. So if you thread a really expensive item you use up threads that could be used to thread several less expensive items.
So say a bow is half the price of a firearm. If the bow takes 2 threads I could thread the bow and another 2 thread piece of gear where if I thread the firearm that will be lost if I use it. So either I take the loss in the form of that item or I lose effectiveness from not having it slotted.
Also items take durability damage on death if they are preserved by threads. Eventually you have to pay the price to repair it.
So in the end, cost is still meaningful.
Not a fan of the delivery but Andius does cover the points I would have made.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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*Freaks out like it's the dumbest question in the world*So I guess this is the guy we are supposed to take seriously....the firearms skill is already in the game...
...This is really interesting...
...So I opened up this line of questions...
What do you mean ? Are you mocking Guurzak or Enruel ?
Cost of production isn't a great way to balance firearms with crossbows.Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................ WHAT?!
You're kidding right? PvP is the place cost is the BIGGEST factor because it's the place you are most likely to lose your stuff.
That's why dragon armor and top tier weapons were a rarity in the original Darkfall and you don't see people running around in null sec with officer modules in EVE. Cost vs. efficiency is a MAJOR consideration for any serious PvPer.
It's PvE/No-Gearloss games like WoW where it's worth it to pay any amount of coin for that tiny extra edge because it's permanent.
I agree with his idea, though, that if it's that great, it'll be used. Even if the best army only has 5 'gunners' vs 3 from the second, it could be a huge disadvantage.
You don't wanna put weapons in the game that are ridiculously OP no matter what it takes to make them.
Basically, you would want Crossbows and Guns to be similar in use, just for different things. How is that possible, though? Make them different types of damage, make them have different effects (like one could crit and the other could condition), etc...
He is right in saying if you put in a weapon that is 'just better' than another weapon but costs more, that isn't balance. It may be balance for some, but once people tier up, and in high lvl pvp, it's going to be stupid to bring a cross bow.
Edit: also, keep in mind we're talking about weapon types not 'the best crossbow' vs a normal crossbow. We're talking about like... imagine if you had a great blade and it was in every way better than a long sword but cost more to produce. People would not use the long sword if they were trying to do serious pvp. Not roaming ganking but players who were confident and fighting over what they felt was important.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Has firearms technology in Golarion moved past the muzzle loading stage?
Because otherwise reloading takes a long time (I've heard max 3 shots per minute).
Maybe rifles could be useful for focus fire bursts (a group of musketeers picking of a target together) or a shoot-and-take cover to reload for 20 (well, make it 10)s thing.
Pistols could maybe replace the slot normally taken by rogue kit, spellbook, totem etc, with long cooldowns making it a once or twice per encounter thing.
That is, unless technology has moved past that stage. I think it would be interesting to make firearms different from other ranged weapons and not just having rifles as reskinned longbows and pistols as reskinned shortbows.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Terminator: The 12-gauge auto-loader.
Clerk: That's Italian. You can go pump or auto.
Terminator: The .45 long slide, with laser sighting.
Clerk: These are brand new - we just got them in. That's a good gun. Just touch the trigger, the beam comes on and you put the red dot where you want the bullet to go. You can't miss. Anything else?
Terminator: Phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range.
Clerk: Hey, just what you see pal.
Terminator: The Uzi nine millimeter.
Clerk: You know your weapons, buddy. Any one of these is ideal for home defense. So uh, which will it be?
Terminator: All.
Clerk: I may close early today. There's a 15 day wait on the hand guns but the rifles you can take right now, and you have to fill these out too.
[Terminator is loading slugs into the shotgun] You can't do that.
Terminator: Wrong. [shoots Clerk]
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It's a direct reference to an earlier conversation where Decius was going on about how experience from previous titles was not that useful and I needed to get educated in all kinds of different theories instead.
Just as with real world employers, practical experience is going to matter a hell of a lot more here than book knowledge and theory as I feel has been clearly demonstrated here.
Yes, but I can multiply.
I would spend four times the expected loss of equipment in order to use half the players to accomplish an objective that was worth the risk.
If a firearms loadout has twice the cost, they need to be 40% more effective to be balanced. Note that the cost of the firearm is only part of the cost if the loadout, and it probably contributes little to the expected loss (due to threading).
I can also describe how to convert cost and effectiveness to numbers that can be compared to each other.
And I think that your outcomes of leading large groups speaks for itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Giorgio, thanks but the linked page refers to a setting called "Thunderscape" taking place in a world called Aden, not Golarion. I found Golariopedia, referencing Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting just now and it doesn't mention cartridges (however it is a very brief text). Seems there are revolvers but they need separate insertion of propellant and bullets, which should mean they take a while to reload.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Pathfinder’s world of Golarion uses the rules for emerging guns" ok you're right, I didn't read carefully enough. The picture link to Thunderscape at the top of the page confused me. Sorry for questioning you Giorgio.
So, gunsmithing technology is at a mid 19th century level. Wow. I'm no subscriber to a strict stadial theory of cultural or technological evolution but that's still difficult to digest.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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"Pathfinder’s world of Golarion uses the rules for emerging guns" ok you're right, I didn't read carefully enough. The picture link to Thunderscape at the top of the page confused me. Sorry for questioning you Giorgio.
So, gunsmithing technology is at a mid 19th century level. Wow. I'm no subscriber to a strict stadial theory of cultural or technological evolution but that's still difficult to digest.
There's lasers & giant robots too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's lasers & giant robots too.
Somehow, the "it's aliens" explanation makes that much easier for me to accept than the firearms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...easier for me to accept than the firearms.
I've seen more than one gaming group over the years--most of my groups in college and grad school had more than their share of biologists, chemists, and physicists--drive their GMs crazy with "okay, I buy saltpeter, charcoal, and sulphur; mix, dampen, and grind them just so", etc. Most GMs started with "okay, that doesn't work here".
To which the scientists, waiting for this, began to haul out the enumeration of all the other chemical reactions, many of them biological, but all of them vital to pretty much anything working at all in the natural world--and the universe--if gunpowder "didn't work". Arguments and much drinking usually followed.
Needless to say, that's one reason I had more than one gaming group during my educational career.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've seen more than one gaming group over the years--most of my groups in college and grad school had more than their share of biologists, chemists, and physicists--drive their GMs crazy with "okay, I buy saltpeter, charcoal, and sulphur; mix, dampen, and grind them just so", etc. Most GMs started with "okay, that doesn't work here".
To which the scientists, waiting for this, began to haul out the enumeration of all the other chemical reactions, many of them biological, but all of them vital to pretty much anything working at all in the natural world--and the universe--if gunpowder "didn't work".
To which my answer was always on the order of, "The great Pre-Marshtophrian working executed by Dianoprelestiphonagmistanrixanictopous the third resulted in the suppression of that particular reaction planet-wide for a period of 17 eons. There are currently sixteen eons to go. I'll get back to you."
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Goblin Squad Member
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...easier for me to accept than the firearms.I've seen more than one gaming group over the years--most of my groups in college and grad school had more than their share of biologists, chemists, and physicists--drive their GMs crazy with "okay, I buy saltpeter, charcoal, and sulphur; mix, dampen, and grind them just so", etc. Most GMs started with "okay, that doesn't work here".
To which the scientists, waiting for this, began to haul out the enumeration of all the other chemical reactions, many of them biological, but all of them vital to pretty much anything working at all in the natural world--and the universe--if gunpowder "didn't work". Arguments and much drinking usually followed.
Needless to say, that's one reason I had more than one gaming group during my educational career.
They want to play A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court campaign setting?