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I will not ask to remove the reroll rule, but alter it to make it less game-changing.
At this point, I have GM'd every single PFS scenario out there including quite a few modules. I also have GM experience with several APs. That amounts to GM credit for just shy of 200 games at this point.
And in that time I can not begin to count how often a reroll has completely changed the course of a game. In my opinion, it is game-breaking. In my (campaign-mode/homebrewed) APs I do not allow rerolls unless they are gained through a feat or class feature and save-or-die/suck spells are tense moments at the table. In PFS I hesitate to even use such spells because almost every single time that the player fails the save they pull out their reroll, save their character, and move on. Save-or-die/suck spells go from being tense moments to *shrugs* from my players.
Examples? Here are two in a row from a game I'm currently running:
How differently that fight would have been if they hadn't been able to reroll those failed saves. And as a GM I have nothing at my disposal to help my poor save-or-die/suck caster.
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Now I know that rerolls bring in some money for Paizo by selling shirts and portfolios. I've been around enough to know that quite a few (the majority?) of people buy those things simply for the PFS reroll. So I'm not proposing getting rid of the rule entirely but simply altering it:
Rather than using your shirt or portfolio to gain an immediate reroll, I think the effect on the system would be far less conspicuous if instead those items gave you the ability to roll two dice and take the better.
The advantage of this system is that the player doesn't have the chance to say, Oh crap, I died. Oh well, I'll just pull out my portfolio; I haven't used my reroll yet... Instead the player has to commit to using their portfolio before the roll is made so they do not have the option to save their reroll until they are dead. It forces the players to anticipate the danger rather than waiting for it to happen and then trying to pull themselves out of it.
It is a subtle difference but I think it would really help those GMs running save-or-die/suck casters (especially if no one in the party has Spellcraft to know what the caster is doing). I'm not pleading that I want to kill more characters but simply that those spells can no longer be used as intended because of the game-changing reroll rule used in PFS.
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As the Alchemist in question, this has been my first use of my reroll and I think that I will abstain from using it in the future. I personally don't have a problem with dying and I am a bit invested in this character, however I actually don't like the reroll mechanic as a whole. Using it to save a character was actually fairly "meh" and left a bad taste in my mouth. (Maybe that is my GM side coming out).
I support this proposition.
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In PFS I hesitate to even use such spells because almost every single time that the player fails the save they pull out their reroll, save their character, and move on.
Hopefully I'm not coming off as pedantic, but I believe the reroll is required to be made before the result of the roll is revealed. A lot of the time it'll be pretty obvious when the player fails the roll (like if they roll under a 5) in which case they just reroll it and move on as you describe, but other times it's still pretty intense.
It also helps that each player can only benefit from a reroll once per scenario/module.
EDIT: Not opposed to your suggestion. Just pointing it out to maybe help in the meantime.
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That looks more like a problem with play-by-post. The players seem to know what DC they need to survive, which isn't how shirt/folio rerolls work.
You have to choose to reroll after you see the result on the dice, but before you know the outcome.
The GM should work out a reasonable way to implement this into the game to avoid exactly what you're talking about. Technically the reroll isn't allowed at all judging by the way you're doing it, but that's not fair on the player either.
Opting to roll twice before seeing the first dice roll probably fixes that; I'm not sure if there are any other side effects (I play online, but not PbP).
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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So, when I GM and somebody makes a borderline saving throw in a contested fight, I ask if they want to reroll, not stating whether it is a pass or fail. On average, I'd wager that at least 25% of the times when I ask that, it is a passed save. Of the failed saves, I'd say that they make it on the reroll roughly 1/3rd of the time. Personally, I like the mechanic because it limits the effect of luck on the game. I feel that Pathfinder is far too swingy, especially at low levels, and this gives players a one-time opportunity to get a second chance when it really counts. I've not used it in my campaign-mode APs, but now that I am thinking about it, I may start adopting that as a house rule as well.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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[i]
Now I know that rerolls bring in some money for Paizo by selling shirts and portfolios. I've been around enough to know that quite a few (the majority?) of people buy those things simply for the PFS reroll.
I bought my shirt many months before playing in PFS ever became an option for me, I just wanted a subtle way to advertise my hobby... and have a nice shirt for the gym.
And frankly save or suck spells... usually suck, especially since they can be quite a surprise and provide a very anticlimactic end to a character.
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This is how GMs should handle saving throws.
What's missing from that story is how Joe *made* the save on a 4, but I asked if he'd like to use his reroll. I do that quite often when PCs barely make a saving throw with a moderately low roll. :D
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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Now I know that rerolls bring in some money for Paizo by selling shirts and portfolios. I've been around enough to know that quite a few (the majority?) of people buy those things simply for the PFS reroll.
They don't make a significant amount on reroll items.
For the most part, a reroll doesn't change that much, most people that reroll take it for the occasional 1. I can't recall very many castings of save or die spells like PK.
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Well, it's not just an issue with save-or-die spells but with any type of d20 roll be it a stabilization check or a fort save to avoid poison or even that attack that just rolled a nat 1. And natural 1s are a part of the game and should happen once in a while. If everyone has a "get out of jail free card" to avoid a natural 1 very scenario, it gets rid of that certain element of the game.
However, by allowing someone to roll two dice at once and take the better you still eliminate a certain portion of that (bad) luck and give the player the appearance of taking fate into their own hands without just letting them save that reroll until a 1 comes up on their d20.
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Yeah Mike, if people want to use it once they realize they are dead, its already too late. From my perspective what you suggest might actually make it more powerful. At least it would decrease the sense of irony when you use the reroll and get the same roll or a lower one the second time.
EDIT:
And of course people can get a natural 1 on the reroll too.
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Statistically/mathematically it might be more powerful as you are taking the greater if two rather than the second one even if that is lower. However in practice I'm not sure it would actually be more powerful because people wouldn't be deciding after they've cal ready seen that 1 on the first die roll; they'd have to decide to use it before anything is rolled at all.
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I would say that about 3 out of every 4 times I use a reroll it is for a Day Job check. I occasionally use it for a failed save or a failed attack. When I play my gunslinger/paladin, I save it for a misfire (she doesn't have Quick Clear).
Most of the rerolls I have seen other people use have been to reroll attack rolls.
Once, in the last couple of weeks I saw a reroll on a save-or-die spell—phantasmal killer, actually. (In reality, that is a save-or-save-or-die spell.) The player rolled low on his Will save, rolled low on his rerolled Will save, and rolled low on his Fortitude save. Kaboom!
I guess I am in the camp that doesn't see the reroll as a problem.
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Rerolls make the likelihood of a PC dying to an unfortunate saving throw much lower. They also make misfires at critically bad times a lot less likely and have other major scenario changing effects.
I think this is as intended, to keep the PCs winning, and to help tip the odds against their deaths.
That said, sometimes the dice turn against you, hard.
Whats even better from Kyle's story is if it'd happened now Joe's GM's stars would have saved him either way.
And that the PC in that story us now an NPC? :-)
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Yes, I've played that scenario. It will no doubt continue to cause players to weep. Well done again, Mr. Baird.
I used my first-ever re-roll this past Monday night during a run of Thornkeep. Energy Drain at the 1-2 Tier is nasty. Thankfully I was level 2, so it wouldn't have killed my PC outright.
My GM actually revealed the result and let me use a borrowed folio to do the re-roll. I failed by 1, until he reminded me to add my GM stars. It was an incredibly tense moment for our group.
And my 99% Core-only rogue gets to live on!
But I can appreciate Mike's perspective. The game would seem a bit more risky/dangerous without that safety net.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I'm with those that see the rerolls working exactly as they should. More often than not it seems when players use their reroll they roll worse than the original roll. Most tables I've run for when they pull off a good reroll when it is an important save or to hit the bad guy the table cheers. PFS is about having a good time right?
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I don't mind the re roll. Actually I like it.
You are completely right when a re roll can be game changing
While playing Eyes of the ten, Just before facing the end boss, my character fell victim to a petrification spell. He was turned into a statue. Luckily there was an NPC with a stone to flesh memorized. I needed to make my system shock roll, I mean fortitude save, and my character rolled a 3. Desperate, I remembered my shirt re roll and used it. Desna must of laughed because I got a 1. yeah.....it changed the game all right. I was hoping and the other players were hoping for my character to get back in the action for the final fight, but no....that didn't happen.
So even though they often don't do me much good, I would much rather them be there.
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Except energy drain doesn't give you a save until the following day, which is why this particular encounter is so lethal.Yes, I've played that scenario. It will no doubt continue to cause players to weep. Well done again, Mr. Baird.
I used my first-ever re-roll this past Monday night during a run of Thornkeep. Energy Drain at the 1-2 Tier is nasty. Thankfully I was level 2, so it wouldn't have killed my PC outright.
My GM actually revealed the result and let me use a borrowed folio to do the re-roll. I failed by 1, until he reminded me to add my GM stars. It was an incredibly tense moment for our group.
And my 99% Core-only rogue gets to live on!
But I can appreciate Mike's perspective. The game would seem a bit more risky/dangerous without that safety net.
Interesting! I've never used the ability as a GM, so I relied on his understanding. Good to know.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The probability effects of the re-roll are less important, in my opinion, than the psychological effects.
While they still have the re-roll, players act more recklessly,more heroically, than players who don't have access to a re-roll. And once the re-roll is used, players act more conservatively and cautiously. It's a great way to make the end fight seem more dangerous.
As well, the decision as to whether to use the re-roll or not adds a level of strategy to a game that otherwise seems like a series of random rolls strung together with a narrative.
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I don't mind the re roll. Actually I like it.
You are completely right when a re roll can be game changing
** spoiler omitted **So even though they often don't do me much good, I would much rather them be there.
Spoilers. I do not think they work like you think they work. (TL/DR: Put the name of the thing you're spoiling outside the spoiler, so people have the necessary information when deciding whether or not they want to open the spoiler.)
I like rerolls just the way they are. Most of the time, the rerolls seem to fail anyway.
And half the time, I see people using them on stupid stuff, not even saving them for life and death stuff. Just this past Monday, a player used a reroll at a table I was GMing to try and win a carnival game in the intro part of a longer module, rather than saving it for the combat later. Even funnier is that this particular carnival game required multiple rounds of rolls to win, and he still ended up losing, despite the reroll succeeding.
Back when faction missions counted for prestige, my oracle who spoke the local language of the region we were visiting (Tien) helped someone with dumped charisma by doing their diplomatic faction mission for them, and I rolled a natural 1. This was literally the first die roll of the entire session. I used my shirt reroll and got him the prestige point.
Also, as a GM, I never ask a player if they want to use a reroll. If they don't think about it, I don't offer. This also means I'm not unintentionally giving them a hint (or playing head games) about whether or not the first roll succeeded.
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Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Asheville
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For what it's worth, if this were the way rerolls worked, I would virtually never consider using a reroll unless I heard the words "make a Will save." I suppose I might also consider a few instances of "make a Fortitude save." Under the existing structure, I lost a character on Free RPG Day because I gambled and used my reroll to confirm a critical hit on the Big Bad.
My hunch is that this change would, in fact, magnify your issue. Not only are you strengthening the effect, but I suspect you concentrate its usage on precisely the situations you want to avoid.
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Say you need to roll a 13 or higher to succeed on a saving throw. You have a 40% chance of success by rolling a d20. If you use a reroll on all the numbers that fail, this chance is increased to 64% chance of success (Roughly corresponding to a +5 on the original roll), since both rolls would have to be lower than 13 to have you fail. It only gets better when you include GM stars.
Fixed. (It doesn't change your argument, which I think is valid.)
A single effective +5 bonus usable once per game session (not once per day, mind you) is not overly powerful, in my opinion.
Moreover, most people don't use a reroll when it comes up natural 12. Natural 9 or lower is probably more likely. In my case, I use it only on very low rolls, like 1 or 2. That reduces the effective bonus.
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I don't think I've ever seen somebody use a reroll in PbP.
I certainly would never try to do it as a player, even though some of the days when I'm posting I'm wearing the appropriate shirt. As GM, if somebody tried to do it, I'm not sure how I'd react. Indeed, I'm even a little taken aback when somebody tries to use a reroll in a VTT game. While I understand that by the letter of the rules it's permitted, the fact is that in VTT and PbP games, we might not be wearing clothes at all (well, perhaps just a bathrobe) when we're posting, and nobody would even know. So, shirt rerolls just don't seem to make sense to me with the format.
As regards the chararcter folio reroll: I'd like to see those go away altogether. Yes, I know a lot of people would scream because they paid a good $15 to get a free reroll every PFS scenario (since nobody actually uses those to keep their character, they just purchased rerolls). But, it's been a few years. You've had your rerolls. Let's just let it go. Let's all just admit that the character folio was perhaps an ill-considered product, and get rid of the annoying PFS rule that Paizo implemented so that they could actually sell some of them. Or, if we're going to keep it, you have to be using the folio for that character... which means that it wouldn't apply in an online game in any event, because for an online game you have to have some sort of online character sheet for the GM to be able to review it.
Actually, in fact, looking at the guide, the text is:
If a player is using a physical copy (not a PDF, printout,
or photocopy) of the Pathfinder RPG Player Character Folio,
he receives a free reroll.
If it weren't for the fact that I know I would get a legion of complaints sent to the VOs about me being a terrible horrible rule-breaking GM, I would start obeying that rule as written. You can't just have a folio and use it as rerolls for all of your characters. You have to use it. I would dearly love a post from Mike Brock clarifying that having a folio is not sufficient, and that you must be using it for the character in the game, just like the rules actually say.
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I'd rather see save or die spells removed...it's just not in the "spirit" of a standard gaming mechanism that everything about an encounter (either for the players or against them) hinge on a single roll. I know it's iconic, but the changes in spells like hold person and glitter dust helped the game immensely...
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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You can't just have a folio and use it as rerolls for all of your characters. You have to use it. I would dearly love a post from Mike Brock clarifying that having a folio is not sufficient, and that you must be using it for the character in the game, just like the rules actually say.
Actually, Mike issued a clarification to the opposite effect. Link.
Personally, I think this is a good thing. Why? Because we get into ridiculously pedantic arguments over the shirts. Is it being worn? What constitutes being worn? With the folio, you just have it there, and there's no argument over it.
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I find that rerolls actually can increase tension or drama. A simple "will you keep that, or reroll" followed by a poker face actually adds tension. Does a player trust her save modifier? Does she trust her luck on the reroll?
I've never felt that it was abusive when a player survived because of one of these. I also tend to feel players should succeed after facing difficulties. A chance to roll twice on a single roll doesn't negate all challenge in any way. It doesn't make up for bad modifiers or bad tactics. It can stop something from failing do solely to a bad die roll. Why is that a bad thing?
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You can't just have a folio and use it as rerolls for all of your characters. You have to use it. I would dearly love a post from Mike Brock clarifying that having a folio is not sufficient, and that you must be using it for the character in the game, just like the rules actually say.Actually, Mike issued a clarification to the opposite effect. Link.
Personally, I think this is a good thing. Why? Because we get into ridiculously pedantic arguments over the shirts. Is it being worn? What constitutes being worn? With the folio, you just have it there, and there's no argument over it.
Agreed. I use my Folio all the time. I use it as a decoration, a paperweight, sometimes as a coaster. I just don't use it as a character sheet.
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I too, try to weasel my players out of there rerolls. There have been times I have gotten players to use them on made up skill just that it absolutely makes no difference whether they save or fail. I just constantly remind my players "are you happy with that roll." I try my very best to get my players to reroll checks they make.
My players know I do this so when it comes to a serious roll, there's a very good chance they have already spent their reroll on something else.
OP, just keep in mind, the reroll has to be used before the first result is determined. Most GMs don't care when it's used, but that is one way to get players to cash them in.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I, for one, think the difficulty level of PFS play is calibrated just about right. I would guess that most players agree.
For those players who want a harder game, they can choose not to use their rerolls. Most games I do not use mine.
If you think rerolls are game-breaking because your save-or-die casters can't kill as many PCs, I'm not sympathetic to that. It is a characteristic of PFS play that GMs have much less leeway to tweak difficulty. That's a feature, not a bug. Our role as GMs is to foster a fun experience; challenge is only part of the equation.
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You can't just have a folio and use it as rerolls for all of your characters. You have to use it. I would dearly love a post from Mike Brock clarifying that having a folio is not sufficient, and that you must be using it for the character in the game, just like the rules actually say.Actually, Mike issued a clarification to the opposite effect. Link.
Personally, I think this is a good thing. Why? Because we get into ridiculously pedantic arguments over the shirts. Is it being worn? What constitutes being worn? With the folio, you just have it there, and there's no argument over it.
Sigh. Oh well.
I would love to see the folio rerolls go away. I just think they're kind of ridiculous. It's hard to imagine a more obvious way for Paizo to announce that there's no good intrinsic reason to buy this product. Now that we're a few years down the line, I'd love to see them just let it go.
I'm fine with shirt rerolls as is, with the caveat mentioned above about PbP games.
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Well, it's not just an issue with save-or-die spells but with any type of d20 roll be it a stabilization check or a fort save to avoid poison or even that attack that just rolled a nat 1. And natural 1s are a part of the game and should happen once in a while. If everyone has a "get out of jail free card" to avoid a natural 1 very scenario, it gets rid of that certain element of the game.
No, it really doesn't. I've seen people reroll nat 1's only to see the same number stare back at them. My Seeker died twice over the course of his career, and the second time he used his reroll and did worse. Even worse, I've spent the reroll early only to end up rolling a 1 later in the game.
In short, I don't find anything advantageous about your proposition.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I too, try to weasel my players out of there rerolls. There have been times I have gotten players to use them on made up skill just that it absolutely makes no difference whether they save or fail. I just constantly remind my players "are you happy with that roll." I try my very best to get my players to reroll checks they make.
My players know I do this so when it comes to a serious roll, there's a very good chance they have already spent their reroll on something else.
OP, just keep in mind, the reroll has to be used before the first result is determined. Most GMs don't care when it's used, but that is one way to get players to cash them in.
I'm imagining a player who dies/fails due to a low roll, and then finds out that the thing they used up their reroll on earlier in the scenario was something you "made up" (your words). I'm trying to envision a situation where this happens and your actions as GM aren't reprimand-worthy, but I'm coming up blank. Perhaps some clarification from you would help?
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I'm imagining a player who dies/fails due to a low roll, and then finds out that the thing they used up their reroll on earlier in the scenario was something you "made up" (your words). I'm trying to envision a situation where this happens and your actions as GM aren't reprimand-worthy, but I'm coming up blank. Perhaps some clarification from you would help?I too, try to weasel my players out of there rerolls. There have been times I have gotten players to use them on made up skill just that it absolutely makes no difference whether they save or fail. I just constantly remind my players "are you happy with that roll." I try my very best to get my players to reroll checks they make.
My players know I do this so when it comes to a serious roll, there's a very good chance they have already spent their reroll on something else.
OP, just keep in mind, the reroll has to be used before the first result is determined. Most GMs don't care when it's used, but that is one way to get players to cash them in.
Absolutely, my wording was poor there and I meant nothing malicious by it.
Example: when a player goes off book and I have to make a NPC up on the fly and the want to talk to them. The information I would give them wouldn't be anything they didn't already know, but just worded differently. If they get at 10 on a diplo check I would ask them if they are happy with that roll. Sometimes people reroll, sometimes they don't.
Another thing is I try to bring up some of the faction missions (items), just for flavor. I have never had someone use a reroll on this, but I could see it happening. I don't include faction missions unless I think it adds to the story.
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The deadliness level (which is not necessarily the same thing as the difficulty level) preferred by each individual player in PFS varies. GMs can and should adjust the deadliness level of an adventure, in those areas where they are allowed, to accommodate the preferred deadliness level of the table in general. But since the preferred deadliness level between two players at the same table may vary greatly, this doesn't always work well. The current way the rerolls work, since you only get one, it is usually only used for perceived critical rolls. Since such rolls are few in most mods and can mean the difference between their character living and dying, then the current reroll rule has a lot greater effect on the deadliness of an adventure than the actual difficulty of the adventure. Thus the reroll rules can be used by the player to more customize the deadliness level even when two players at the same table may vary greatly on their personally preferred deadliness level. Given all that, I don't have a problem with how the reroll rules work currently.
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I'm imagining a player who dies/fails due to a low roll, and then finds out that the thing they used up their reroll on earlier in the scenario was something you "made up" (your words). I'm trying to envision a situation where this happens and your actions as GM aren't reprimand-worthy, but I'm coming up blank. Perhaps some clarification from you would help?I too, try to weasel my players out of there rerolls. There have been times I have gotten players to use them on made up skill just that it absolutely makes no difference whether they save or fail. I just constantly remind my players "are you happy with that roll." I try my very best to get my players to reroll checks they make.
My players know I do this so when it comes to a serious roll, there's a very good chance they have already spent their reroll on something else.
OP, just keep in mind, the reroll has to be used before the first result is determined. Most GMs don't care when it's used, but that is one way to get players to cash them in.
Absolutely, my wording was poor there and I meant nothing malicious by it.
Example: when a player goes off book and I have to make a NPC up on the fly and the want to talk to them. The information I would give them wouldn't be anything they didn't already know, but just worded differently. If they get at 10 on a diplo check I would ask them if they are happy with that roll. Sometimes people reroll, sometimes they don't.
Another thing is I try to bring up some of the faction missions (items), just for flavor. I have never had someone use a reroll on this, but I could see it happening. I don't include faction missions unless I think it adds to the story.
The issue here is that you are deliberately trying to trick the players into wasting their precious reroll. I really don't know any players that enjoy being punked by the GM.
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The issue here is that you are deliberately trying to trick the players into wasting their precious reroll. I really don't know any players that enjoy being punked by the GM.
I do not go deliberately out of the way to get people to waste their rolls. I do not ask a player everytime the roll their d20 if they want to reroll it. I do ask them if it is a very obviously low roll or if they just barely met the DC if the would like to reroll. I even, jokingly, ask players if the want to reroll if the very obviously (30+) make a DC. The players know they made the made the check without a doubt and they'll joking say "oh, I don't know I think I'll have to stay". .
Either way, I try to make my tables fun. Yes, there have been deaths at my tables, but I can guarantee 100% deaths have not occurred from previous 'wasted' rerolls. I try to keep my players on their toes and they seem to enjoy my reroll tactic, because when it comes to tense times, reroll a phantasmal killer, they can't read my poker face.
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I too, try to weasel my players out of there rerolls.
I really don't know how else I was supposed to read that other than deliberate action on your part.
I try to keep my players on their toes and they seem to enjoy my reroll tactic, because when it comes to tense times, reroll a phantasmal killer, they can't read my poker face.
Heh...I wouldn't need to read your face for that one. Being told I just failed a Will save against illusion and then told I need to make a Fortitude save tells me I just got hit with Phantasmal Killer. That or the GM describing the horrifying things I am seeing in my mind.