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I've seen this questioned in a number of threads but I don't think I've seen an official clarification. So, I thought I might ask it here "officially" as it were in hopes of possibly getting an answer.
The hunter class from the Advanced Class Guide gets an animal companion. This class feature says, in part:
Animal Companion (Ex): A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks.
The skirmisher ranger archetype lists these hunter's tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the ranger or a nearby ally:
- Aiding Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits a creature with an attack. The next ally who makes an attack against the target creature before the start of the ranger's next turn gains a +2 circumstance bonus on that attack roll.
- Bolster Companion (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when his animal companion is hit with an attack or a combat maneuver. The companion's AC and combat maneuver defense increase by +4 for the purposes of that attack. If the attack still hits, the animal companion only takes half damage (if any). The animal companion must be able to see and hear the ranger to benefit from this trick.
- Catfall (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when he falls 20 or more feet, ignoring the first 20 feet of the fall when calculating the falling damage. If the ranger takes no damage from the fall, he does not fall prone.
- Chameleon Step (Ex): The ranger can move up to twice his speed as a move action. The ranger does not take any penalty on Stealth checks for movement during this move. This move provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
- Cunning Pantomime (Ex): As a standard action, the ranger can communicate with a single creature as if using the tongues spell for 10 minutes. Because the communication is slow and lacks subtlety, the ranger suffers a –4 penalty on all Bluff and Diplomacy checks relating to the creature he is communicating with when using this trick.
- Defensive Bow Stance (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a swift action. Until the start of his next turn, his ranged attacks do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
- Deft Stand (Ex): The ranger can spend a move action to stand up without provoking attacks of opportunity.
- Distracting Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls for 1 round.
- Hateful Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he makes an attack against one of his favored enemies. The ranger doubles the threat range of his weapon for this attack. This does not stack with other abilities that increase a weapon's threat range.
- Heel (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when his animal companion moves. When the companion moves, the square it starts out in is not considered threatened by any opponent it can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against it when it moves from that square. The companion must end this movement in a square adjacent to the ranger. The animal companion must be able to see and hear the ranger to take this movement.
- Hobbling Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack's land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds.
- Quick Climb (Ex): The ranger can climb at his full speed as a move action without penalty.
- Quick Healing (Ex): As a swift action, the ranger can make a Heal check to administer first aid on an adjacent dying character. Alternatively, the ranger can administer a potion to an unconscious character as a move action.
- Quick Swim (Ex): The ranger can swim at his full speed as a move action without penalty.
- Ranger's Counsel (Ex): As a swift action, the ranger can grant all allies within 30 feet that are within line of sight and can hear him a +2 bonus on skill checks with a single skill of his choice. The ranger must have at least one rank in the chosen skill. This bonus lasts for 1 round.
- Rattling Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.
- Second Chance Strike (Ex): When he misses with a melee attack, the ranger may reroll his attack at a –5 penalty. Using this ability is an immediate action.
- Sic 'Em (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a swift action. His animal companion makes one melee attack against an adjacent creature. The animal companion must be able to see and hear the ranger to make this attack.
- Skill Sage (Ex): As a free action, the ranger can roll twice on any one skill check and take the better result. He must have at least 1 rank in that skill to use this ability.
- Stag's Leap (Ex): As a free action, the ranger can attempt a running jump without moving 10 feet before the jump.
- Surprise Shift (Ex): The ranger can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.
- Tangling Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this attack as a free action when he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target is entangled for 1 round.
- Trick Shot (Ex): As a standard action, the ranger can make a ranged attack that ignores concealment (but not total concealment), soft cover, and partial cover.
- Uncanny Senses (Ex): As an immediate action, the ranger gains a +10 insight bonus on Perception checks for 1 round.
- Upending Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action just before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, he may make a free trip combat maneuver against the target.
- Vengeance Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when an enemy adjacent to him hits an ally with a melee or ranged attack. The ranger can make a single melee attack at his highest base attack bonus against the creature who attacked his ally.
Although a few of these could certainly apply to an animal, it seems pretty clear that most of these tricks are intended to apply to the ranger (or in this case, the hunter) not an animal companion.
There is also the problem of uses per day. There are no limits to how many times per day an animal companion can use the tricks it knows.
The skirmisher hunter's tricks, on the other hand, say:
"A ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his ranger level + his Wisdom modifier."
Does this limit apply to the hunter's animal companion or was the intent that this limit be ignored?
I of course understand that DMs and players in home games can work around this, modify the rule to make it work, hand wave parts that don't work etc. What I'm asking is, how is this intended to work per the rules as they are currently written.
So, again: how does this rule ("a hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype" instead of standard tricks") actually work?
If nothing else, I'd encourage folks to click the FAQ link in hopes of getting this clarified ...
Thanks!
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RAW: The limits don't apply to your AC. Any attempt to add those limits is inferring RAI.
RAW: your AC can be taught any of those tricks, but some are less than useful (not many ACs will find much advantage in 'defensive bow stance'), or do nothing (AC's don't have AC's to call to 'Heel')
I don't recommend teaching your AC those.
(As I mentioned elsewhere I like the quick heal: antiseptic licks? administering a potion might prove challenging though)
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Thanks folks.
That's the point though. Saying something like "The limits don't apply to your AC" or "your AC can be taught any of those tricks" is, by it's very nature NOT RAW (Rules as Written) simply because the rules in question say nothing either way.
This is why it would be good to have this clarified officially.
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I agree it needs limitations. But as it stands now (RAW), it doesnt have any. Replace the word "ranger" in all those tricks with "(animal companion's name)" and you have how it works.
Example 1 - Distracting Attack (Ex): The Animal Companion can use this trick as a free action before he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls for 1 round.
So this works fine.
Example 2 - Sic 'Em (Ex): The Animal Companion can use this trick as a swift action. His animal companion makes one melee attack against an adjacent creature. The animal companion must be able to see and hear the ranger to make this attack.
This does not apply since the Animal companion doesn't have it's own companion. Same way this trick would do nothing for a ranger with a bond with his party over the animal bond.
EDIT:
This is why it would be good to have this clarified officially.
Probably won't get this considering paizo's track record.
Till then, use the age old "Ask your GM".
PFS does its own house rules and can disallow or change things.
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I've seen this come up quite a few times (and not just on these forums), so I agree that it is a Frequently Asked Question, and have hit the FAQ button.
Actually RAW it specifically states you can teach your AC all of the abilities right there in the ability. The only problem is it doesn't clarify how your AC treats some of the abilities, until clarified, as written, those abilities do nothing (pretty much all those that refer to getting your AC to do something)
Second the limit on uses applies to the skirmisher Archetype. Your AC doesn't gain the archtype, it just gains the tricks. You would need text explicitly stating that the limit applied or that the AC got the abilities 'as the archetype' or some such. In the absence of such wording then rules AS WRITTEN they don't apply. (as an aside any such wording would probably need a proviso of treating your ACs HD as ranger levels for this purpose or some such).
I'm not inferring anything, I'm not guessing as to intent, I am just saying how it's written. Feel free to point out something I've missed/misread - it wouldn't be the first time :)
There's a big thread on this here. Adding FAQs to that one might spur more action since there are already so many there.
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Excellent point Iron Giant - maybe click FAQ on both threads! :)
The problem with simply assuming that the animal companion can use these tricks as often as desired is that it makes them MUCH more powerful than a standard animal trick.
Consider hunter's tricks such as Hobbling Attack, Rattling Strike and Upending Strike as examples:
Hobbling Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack's land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds.
Rattling Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.
Upending Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action just before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, he may make a free trip combat maneuver against the target.
A hunter's animal companion knowing the Hobbling Attack trick, for example, means every time the animal hits a target, that target takes normal damage PLUS automatically has its land speed reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds ... every time the animal hits!
A hunter's animal companion knowing the Rattling Strike trick means every time the animal hits a target, that target takes normal damage PLUS is automatically shaken for 1d4 rounds ... every time the animal hits!
If a hunter's animal companion knows all three of these tricks, it essentially means every time the animal hits a target, that target takes normal damage PLUS automatically has its land speed reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds AND is shaken for 1d4 rounds AND the animal gets to make a free trip combat maneuver against the target! Every time the animal hits!
It seems clear to me that every Ranger Trick includes only being able to be used from a pool that is total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his Ranger (Animal Companion) level + his Wisdom modifier. While only mentioned at the beginning of the text, it is part of the definition of each individual trick as well, only it is printed a single time for brevity.
You can't have just a trick without the controlling heading that defines what and how tricks work, which includes uses per day.
While I agree with yall that it needs to have a limit. They are also giving up access to regular tricks to do this. If that is the case then they should acquire a new trick every 2 HD. I dont think they realized so many of them are free actions.
If a hunter's animal companion knows all three of these tricks, it essentially means every time the animal hits a target, that target takes normal damage PLUS automatically has its land speed reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds AND is shaken for 1d4 rounds AND the animal gets to make a free trip combat maneuver against the target! Every time the animal hits!
The problem with this is, it strains what most gms would allow for free actions. A hunter can command his AC to perform a trick as a free action. What you just suggested takes minimum of 4 free actions for 1 animal command (attack, rattling strike, hobbling attack, upending strike) And that is only for 1 attack. If the AC has 3 natural attacks, that puts it to 10 free actions. (16 if a cat with 5 natural attacks)
I'll also point out that unless the AC has a feat for it, upending strike is going to provoke an AOO.
This is all assuming that you can give an AC multiple tricks to perform. The way it works by raw is, you give the animal the command as a free action on your turn, than on it's turn (usually right after yours)the animal perfoms the trick. I couldn't find anything under the Handle Animal skill that allows you to give an animal multiple commands. Should we just assume you can?
Keep in mind for an INT 2-4 AC (most are in this range) It could be pretty confusing.
"Fido, attack that beasty over there, first with your bite and use rattling hobbling and upending! than attack him with your Claw and do rattling, entangling and upending! Use your other claw on the other beasty with entangling hobbling and upending! If any of them miss, use your Second chance strike."
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Fair enough.
According to the rules as written though, more than one free action are possible, so the above scenario, while a bit extreme, is possible.
Even if we stick with just an attack and then, say ... Rattling Strike. That still means every time the animal hits a target, that target takes normal damage PLUS is *automatically* shaken for 1d4 rounds ... *every time the animal hits!*
That's the entire point - allowing skirmisher hunter's tricks to be taught to the hunter's animal companion WITHOUT any kind of additional rules or clarification causes a HUGE amount of confusion and questions
This thread really isn't for people to try and give their best guess as to how this probably *should* work or how it was probably *intended* to work, because those are all just best guesses. The point of this is to hopefully get it officially cleared up and clarified :)
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Your typical AC has a 13 Wisdom, some have lower some have higher but most fall around 13 for a +0 to +2. This means if you follow the Skirmisher's daily use restriction ACs can use them 0 to 2 times depending on the Wisdom of the individual AC and there are plenty of ACs with 11 or lower Wisdom making it so they can't use them at all. This is because the uses per day are 1/2 Ranger level (and half of 0 is still 0) + Wisdom modifier. This makes this ability completely useless for a large number of Animal Companions.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a limit, just that trying to use the limit as listed under Skirmisher would not be appropriate.
Your typical AC has a 13 Wisdom, some have lower some have higher but most fall around 13 for a +0 to +2. This means if you follow the Skirmisher's daily use restriction ACs can use them 0 to 2 times depending on the Wisdom of the individual AC and there are plenty of ACs with 11 or lower Wisdom making it so they can't use them at all. This is because the uses per day are 1/2 Ranger level (and half of 0 is still 0) + Wisdom modifier. This makes this ability completely useless for a large number of Animal Companions.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a limit, just that trying to use the limit as listed under Skirmisher would not be appropriate.
Replace 'Ranger' with 'Animal Companion,' just like you have to do in the text of the tricks themselves. Now here I'll admit their is a genuine question as to whether the 'level' of an Animal Companion should be considered it's hit dice, or the class level that animal companion comes from (i.e. druid level, or in this case the level of the hunter.)
The latter option makes more sense to me. If we read the Animal Companion Table as a class table, then a level one animal companion has 2 hd etc etc. This also has the obvious advantage of making the hunter ability work pretty much identical to the skirmisher ability.
Modules Overlord
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There are basically two ways to view this, depending on how you read the rules for Hunter's Tricks.
Reading One: Since the category "Hunter's Tricks" on page 128 says how often they can be used (1/2 ranger level + Wis mod per day), and that is separate from how many tricks a ranger *knows*, the Hunter ability to teach his companion hunter's tricks follows the same rules except where the hunter feature says otherwise.
This would mean a hunter's animal companion would only learn tricks when taught by the hunter, and could use them a total number of times/day equal to 1/2 companion's HD + Wis mod (applying the general rule from page 12 of the CRB that monsters "rely on racial Hit Dice instead of class levels for their powers and abilities").
Though I had nothing to do with this design choice, and have no authority to make official rulings, I consider this the most likely RAW reading. Hunter's Tricks only exist as a thing under the entry "Hunter's Tricks," and thus those rules apply to them unless stated otherwise. How often you can use hunter's tricks is the same kind of thing as how often you can cast a spell. Gaining Bonus Spells Known from an archetype of feat doesn't allow you to use those spells without limit just because the spell itself doesn't include how many times per day you can cast it.
Reading Two: Since each Hunter's Trick has a self-contained set of rules they exist outside of the strictures of how a skirmisher can use them. Thus the uses/day mentioned under "Hunter's Tricks" are limits only for the skirmisher, and do not apply to a hunter's animal companion if they gain tricks outside of taking the archetype. Thus there is no limit to how often hunter animal companions can use the tricks they learn.
I understand where this reading comes from - I can look up a hunter trick, teach it to my animal companion, and never encounter rules that say it can only be used a given number of times per day. I don't actually feel this is the correct RAW reading, but I see where it comes from.
My read of the rules is that if you gain an ability, it runs under the rules defining how that ability works unless something specifically says otherwise. Hunter's Tricks has a section talking about how they are used. It does so in the context of the ranger archetype, because no one else had them at the time. But a hunter's ability to teach his companion hunter's tricks does not, in my opinion, change the rules as written on how tricks work *other* than as defined in the hunter companion ability (which tells you companions may have them, and they learn them in place of normal tricks) and the general rules of the game (monsters use HD rather than class levels).
That would mean the companion still follows the other rules that define the function of hunter's tricks, including uses/day. And since we know monsters use HD instead of class levels, the rules for uses/day would switch to hit dice, as that's a pre-existing rule.
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Thanks Owen! Very well reasoned as always :)
So, for example, you are saying the hunter text might better read something like:
"A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks. In this case, the animal companion is considered to be the 'ranger' for purposes of the trick. The animal companion can use such tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 the animal companion's HD + its Wisdom bonus (if any). Note that some skirmisher hunter’s tricks are not suitable for an animal companion."
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I have to admit that last sentence still feels a bit vague. It might be better to just list which skirmisher hunter’s tricks are valid:
"A hunter may teach her companion the following hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks: Aiding Attack, Catfall, Chameleon Step [etc., etc. ...]
In this case, the animal companion is considered to be the 'ranger' for purposes of the trick. The animal companion can use such tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 the animal companion's HD + its Wisdom bonus (if any).
Excellent point Iron Giant - maybe click FAQ on both threads! :)
The problem with simply assuming that the animal companion can use these tricks as often as desired is that it makes them MUCH more powerful than a standard animal trick.
Consider hunter's tricks such as Hobbling Attack, Rattling Strike and Upending Strike as examples:
Hobbling Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack's land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds.
Rattling Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.
Upending Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action just before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, he may make a free trip combat maneuver against the target.
A hunter's animal companion knowing the Hobbling Attack trick, for example, means every time the animal hits a target, that target takes normal damage PLUS automatically has its land speed reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds ... every time the animal hits!
A hunter's animal companion knowing the Rattling Strike trick means every time the animal hits a target, that target takes normal damage PLUS is automatically shaken for 1d4 rounds ... every time the animal hits!
If a hunter's animal companion knows all three of these tricks, it essentially means every time the animal hits a target, that target takes normal damage PLUS automatically has its land speed reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds AND is shaken for 1d4 rounds AND the animal gets to make a free trip combat maneuver against the target! Every time the animal hits!
I believe that since it is a trick only one can be used at a time, just like a trick. You cannot order an animal to track and attack in the same round, you cant heel and hunt etc. I think that if you order your animal to do something that's what he does until he can do something else.
-Rufus!
-woof!
-Use hobbling rattling upending strike attack!
-woof?
is how I would imagine that would go down...
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Modules Overlord
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I have to admit that last sentence still feels a bit vague. It might be better to just list which skirmisher hunter’s tricks are valid:
Actually if I was going to address that, I'd like stick to saying some may not be inappropriate, and note it's up to GM discretion. I could foresee another rules element coming along someday that allowed (for example) a monkey to use a crossbow, so I wouldn't want to make hard rules on soft topics.
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Fair enough!
So, something more like this, then?
A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks. In this case, the animal companion is considered to be the 'ranger' for purposes of the trick. The animal companion can use such tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 the animal companion's HD + its Wisdom bonus (if any). Note that some skirmisher hunter’s tricks are not suitable for animal companions.
helpful stuff
While I agree with most of this, remember that the animal companion is giving up regular tricks for these. With this interpretation it shouldn't take up the regular tricks and should be acquired at a rate like the skirmisher.
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Modules Overlord
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helpful stuffWhile I agree with most of this, remember that the animal companion is giving up regular tricks for these. With this interpretation it shouldn't take up the regular tricks and should be acquired at a rate like the skirmisher.
I disagree. Rangers give up 4 levels of spellcasting to gain tricks. The animal companion gives up other tricks. It could give up a single trickl and gain a very useful ranger trick it could still use 1/2 HD plus Wis bonus times per day. I think it's getting off easy.
That said, how the companion gains tricks, and how many it can have, are pretty clearly defined by the hunter class description.
OK, well ... at least we have what seems like a pretty workable, although admittedly unofficial, interim solution until the big ACG FAQ goes live ...
I look forward to using skirmisher abilities -1 times per day with my giant toad companion.
Workable? What would you do in this situation?
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I think the misunderstanding is the Skirmisher ability says "times per day equal to level + Wisdom modifier" which implies a positive or negative modifier, depending on the ability score. It's pretty clear it should actually say 'bonus, if any' like most other, similar abilities.
That's why I wrote the 'new' text as follows:
Animal Companion (Ex):
A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks. In this case, the animal companion is considered to be the 'ranger' for purposes of the trick. The animal companion can use such tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 the animal companion's HD + its Wisdom bonus (if any). Note that some skirmisher hunter’s tricks are not suitable for animal companions.
So, even if an animal companion has no Wisdom bonus, it still gets to use the skirmisher trick a number of times per day equal to 1/2 the animal companion's HD, or at least once per day (remember animal companions start off with 2 HD) and soon enough even more times per day once the animal companion has increased its HD
None of this is official of course, but the above proposed text might be a good start for when the Paizo staff hammers out the official clarification
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Actually if I was going to address that, I'd like stick to saying some may not be inappropriate, and note it's up to GM discretion. I could foresee another rules element coming along someday that allowed (for example) a monkey to use a crossbow, so I wouldn't want to make hard rules on soft topics.
I'm astonished the thread didn't immediately derail into optimization theory for crossbow-wielding monkeys. I'd combine it with Mad Monkeys for a crossbow-wielding swarm!
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Animal companions have no limit on the number of times thet can do a trick. These should be no different.
Now, for the balance aspect, most people who have mentioned this point to the free trip/shaken/entangle on a hit.
Instead of a blanket nerf to the tricks since many AC's will have no or even negative wis mods, why not just stipulate that like rogue talents that function on hit, only one rider effect can be applied per attack?
This makes them usable, but not overwhelming. (I would personally say that each rider trick should have to be bought for each type of natural attack, since tripping with a bite is different than a claw or tailslap)
I'm going to play my hunter for the first time tomorrow (level 1), with a 13 wis animal companion. Tangling Attack and Rattling Strike as hunter tricks.
For this first scenario I'm going to give it a go with the very conservative ruling of 1/2 HD + wis mod, so I'll have 2 uses/day.
Next to that I will be making a record of how often the animal companion hits and how debilitating I could've made the enemy.
Further I've given it 4 int and used a rank in linguistics to teach it Hallit. Should there come a ruling that it's usable unlimited as long as you succeed on a handle animal check, I hope I made it smart enough to learn attack patterns.
Thread Necro!!!
I have been following the multiple threads on this situation and have FAQ'd each one. My thoughts on the usage per day situation follow.
The first thing we have to examine is the Hunter class itself. It's a 3/4 BAB, weak spellcasting class with the boon of an Animal Companion. The hunter alone (without his AC) is a very weak class compared to the druid and ranger (which this class is based off) without their animal companions. I would argue that most druids and rangers don't use their ACs much past mid-levels. Rangers are full BAB with a large amount of support abilities (Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain, Combat Styles). Druid has full 9th level spells casting and Wildshape. And then you have the Hunter... 3/4 BAB, casting capped out at 6th level, with Animal Focus (which is a neat ability, but nowhere near as powerful as Wild Shape, nor the ranger's abilities). The Hunter is based completely around his AC.
Now, let's compare the ACs (assuming no skirmisher abilities for the moment). Without skirmisher tricks the druid and hunter ACs are exactly the same (yes, I know you can put permanent Animal Focus on, but that's not game changing). For a class that is based completely on being viable only when they have an AC, that seems a little weak... The skirmisher tricks do add some power to the Hunter's AC, which it needs to remain viable in combat (which let's face it... Hunter's are a combat class, they are by no means casters). The hunter is very niche, a very cool niche IMHO, but nonetheless niche. Without their ACs, Hunters are weak.
The skirmisher tricks require the Hunter to sacrifice a very valuable commodity, trick slots. At first level, the standard AC will know 7 tricks (2 for Attack, 1 for Defend, 1 for Come (These are all required tricks of any combat AC)). So we know 3 more tricks... and there are more basic tricks that every AC should really know to avoid getting squished. By potentially restricting the ACs to usage per day on the skirmisher tricks makes the Hunter AC severely weaker. If you limit to usage per day, then the class should be adjusted to allow access to a certain number of skirmisher tricks known without sacrificing mundane trick slots. Or if we are required to continue to sacrifice trick slots, then leave it as unlimited usage per day with the very reasonable stipulation of perhaps requiring the skirmisher attacks to require a full-round action.
This way you don't have the cheeseheads saying "No! No! The Handle Animal skill clearly states it's a free action, so I can stack fifteen different skirmisher tricks into one attack!" I think everyone can agree that's asinine. This also limits the AC to sacrifice movement and full attack actions to completely said skirmisher trick. I do not see that as overpowered once you tally in all the other factors of this class.
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Things I think need to be done to fix the hunter.
1: The Hunters AC should get full HD through level 20. Reason Hunter's AC should be tougher than a Druids as the Hunter gives up 4 levels of spell casting and Wild Shape.
2: The skirmisher's tricks should have unlimited usage but only one per turn as a swift action. All hunters tricks should be a swift action.
3: Hunters should have a Hunter's only feat to choose a Magical Beast as a Companion.
4: Hunter's Should be allowed to awaken their AC if they take an Animal Leadership feat. Basically Leadership for animals.
5: Any spell that the hunter casts on himself effects the AC no matter the range.
6: Hunter's should get a +2 to Handle Animal this Separates Separates them as a better animal trainer than the ranger.
Things I think need to be done to fix the hunter.
1: The Hunters AC should get full HD through level 20. Reason Hunter's AC should be tougher than a Druids as the Hunter gives up 4 levels of spell casting and Wild Shape.
2: The skirmisher's tricks should have unlimited usage but only one per turn as a swift action. All hunters tricks should be a swift action.
3: Hunters should have a Hunter's only feat to choose a Magical Beast as a Companion.
4: Hunter's Should be allowed to awaken their AC if they take an Animal Leadership feat. Basically Leadership for animals.
5: Any spell that the hunter casts on himself effects the AC no matter the range.
6: Hunter's should get a +2 to Handle Animal this Separates Separates them as a better animal trainer than the ranger.
In response...
1) The only problem there is that Paizo would have to completely revamp the animal companion rules just for the Hunter. I agree that the Hunter's ACs should be more powerful than the druid/ranger, but maybe not a complete overhaul.
2) I agree!
3) I'm not exactly sure how that would change up the animal companion, so... I guess I don't know that I see that as an advantage?
4) Well... that's what the Awaken spell is for, and then simply take Leadership feat to get them as a Cohort. So, I'm not sure I see the direction you're going with this one.
5) That would be considered a very powerful ability. If something like that would be considered, I'd say it would have to be level 15+. Unlimited distance spell sharing is pretty powerful.
6) Hunter's already get +4 bonus to Handle Animal when dealing with their own Animal Companions. I wasn't sure if you meant an additional +2 bonus on top of that, or just a simple flat +2 bonus to Handle Animal.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Can I just take a moment to examine in awe the Cunning Pantomime trick?
(Ex): As a standard action, the ranger can communicate with a single creature as if using the tongues spell for 10 minutes. Because the communication is slow and lacks subtlety, the ranger suffers a –4 penalty on all Bluff and Diplomacy checks relating to the creature he is communicating with when using this trick.
^_^
>_<
Okay, with that out of my system, I do agree that the 1/2 HD + Wis mod of the Animal Companion per day seems fair given the power and out right shenanigans that these tricks open up.
Creating new sheets to try out different hunters and this whole skirmisher thing is giving me a headache.
I like to follow RAW most of the time or atleast know exactly what im changing from it and there is no RAW here to follow at all.
Really waiting for this FAQ , be it with the limit or with once per atk.
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Things I think need to be done to fix the hunter.
4: Hunter's Should be allowed to awaken their AC if they take an Animal Leadership feat. Basically Leadership for animals.
In response...
4) Well... that's what the Awaken spell is for, and then simply take Leadership feat to get them as a Cohort. So, I'm not sure I see the direction you're going with this one.
I tend to agree that this is probably beyond the scope of the class.
Having said that, anyone interested in an animal leadership-type feat should definitely check out the HUGE feats chapter in the the
New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press which actually contains the Beast Leadership feat!
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The Hunter's AC already is buffed over the Druid's AC. Animal Focus buffs that scale, and free teamwork feat synergy. And I'm not even counting the skirmisher Ranger tricks.Things I think need to be done to fix the hunter.
1: The Hunters AC should get full HD through level 20. Reason Hunter's AC should be tougher than a Druids as the Hunter gives up 4 levels of spell casting and Wild Shape.
Teamwork feats are bonkers good for the Hunter and his pet, and Animal Focus and skirmisher tricks are absolutely big buffs over what the druid provides. I don't think the Hunter needs fixing, he's one of the better classes in the game right now. He may trickle off a bit in the last couple levels of the game, but that's true of any class that doesn't get 9th level casting. Compared to the Inquisitor, Bard, Cavalier, Paladin, Ranger, etc. he's right on point for where he should be.
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I have a player who just switched from Druid to Hunter and is enjoying the class. Her concept is all about her Wolf AC, please watch Princess Mononoke for illustration.
Her party consists of a Spell-less Paladin, Superstious Beast CAGM Barbarian, Synthesist Summoner, and Spell-slinger wizard. They all just leveled to 6, she switched at 5.
With her druid she was constantly feeling behind. I told her that at levels 6 and 7 she would get some of the Mojo she felt she was missing, but she wanted to switch anyway.
She is much happier with her Hunter, and feels more rather than less powerful.
How I am running Skirmisher tricks is this:
1.) When it says "Ranger's AC" I allow it to affect the PC when used by the AC.
2.) Only one attack modifier trick may be used per attack.
3.) I do not put daily limits on tricks use.
She still does not keep up in combat with the Pally while smiting or the Barbarian while Raging, but is closer now and what is more important in her eyes, her companion is better which is enjoyable for her.
In short, *Shrug*, I do not feel that even unlimited use of tricks is OP when put up against what is already in the game.
Just my two cents please enjoy and have fun.
The animal companion could do one trick per round UNLESS the PC gives up a move or standard action to make it progress further. Either way the AC is still limited in the number of uses per day as his one half his HD plus his wisdom mod.
Would that work for most people?
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The animal companion could do one trick per round UNLESS the PC gives up a move or standard action to make it progress further. Either way the AC is still limited in the number of uses per day as his one half his HD plus his wisdom mod.
Would that work for most people?
For now i favor same action cost you do BUT without any limit per day.
Really hope the FAQ for this gets out soon.