Hunter's Animal Companion and Hunter's Tricks from Skirmisher Ranger Archetype

[Jayder22]

Under the Animal Companion class feature for Hunters it says :
A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s
tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder
RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks.

This is a request for clarification on how this is limited.

1. Rangers only start getting Hunter's tricks at level 5, is it intended for Hunters to have access to them at level 1?

2. Hunter's Tricks say in the feature that they can be used 1/2 Ranger level + Wisdom modifier. How often can an animal companion use these tricks? The Hunter ability says he teaches the animal companion the trick, and animals have no limit on how often they can perform a trick that they know.

3. If it is limited, is it limited based on the Animal Companion's Wisdom modifier (it does not have ranger or hunter levels itself)or the Hunter's wisdom modifier(and any ranger levels he may have)?

[Chess Pwn]

It means he has access to the Skirmisher abilities and can teach his companion to work with them. Same as the Skirmisher. And looks like at lv 1 he gets it. It also kinda seems it's unlimited, but it is using trick slots of the animal that the skirmisher doesn't.

Now, there's lots of questions. I'm just giving my thoughts from how I read it. It definitely could use some clarifying.

[Michael Sayre]

Chess Pwn wrote:

It means he has access to the Skirmisher abilities and can teach his companion to work with them. Same as the Skirmisher. And looks like at lv 1 he gets it. It also kinda seems it's unlimited, but it is using trick slots of the animal that the skirmisher doesn't.

That's how I read it as well. The pet can learn tricks from the Skirmisher list as Handle Animal tricks, and uses them in the same way they use any Handle Animal trick.

Considering the fact that only about 1/2 of those tricks are actually useable by the AnC and that the Hunter still needs to be investing the appropriate resources to ensure that he can consistently command his pet to use them, I think it balances out well.

The Hunter is so much more reliant on the pet than either of his parent classes that the pet really needs that capacity to keep the class viable through all levels of play.

[Calth]

I am of the opposite opinion, theres nothing overriding the usage amount restriction from skirmisher, so I think it would apply, using the ACs HD and wisdom. I can see the opposite argument, but would expect variation on it until an FAQ.

[Michael Sayre]

Calth wrote:

I am of the opposite opinion, theres nothing overriding the usage amount restriction from skirmisher, so I think it would apply, using the ACs HD and wisdom. I can see the opposite argument, but would expect variation on it until an FAQ.

The animal companion does not gain the Skirmisher archetype, where those restrictions are listed. It learns the individual tricks presented in that archetype as Handle Animal tricks. There's literally no rules basis for those limitations applying to the AnC's use of the tricks. Considering a skill check is required to command the companion to activate them, they're being executed by a creature with lower BAB, there's no FE bonuses shoring up their success, and he actually is only able to utilize half the total list, bot only is there no rules reasons to assume a per day limit, there's also no balance reason.

[Yuri the Barbarian]

I agree with the OP that a FAQ entry is needed to clarify how this should work. It's even more of a mess when we look at the Skirmisher entry and contemplate what it might mean for the AnC to learn "hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype instead of standard tricks." Aside from the questions already raised about when this ability begins and how often it can be used, it's not at all clear how the skirmisher's tricks work when they are done by an AnC.

In particular, for the purposes of this ability of the Hunter class, in the text of the skirmisher's tricks, should the words "the ranger" be replaced by "the hunter's animal companion"? That would work pretty straight forwardly for some of the tricks. For example, the very first skirmisher trick listed "Aiding Attack" - if an AnC with this trick hits an enemy, the next ally who also attacks the same enemy gets a +2. Ok, simple and no problem. Similarly, "Defensive Bow Stance" would give the AnC the ability to make ranged attacks without provoking AoO; since most (all?) AnC won't have ranged attacks, this trick would be legal but irrelevant for them.

But what about tricks like "Ranger's Counsel"? If there are no limits on how often an AnC can do these tricks, can I instruct my AnC to have Ranger's Counsel (Perception) perpetually turned on, thereby giving everyone in the party a continuing +2 Perception bump? Similarly, can I give my AnC 1 rank in UMD (once I bump his intelligence to 3 at level 4) and thereby use Ranger's Counsel (UMD) to have him give everyone in the party a +2 UMD whenever needed?

And what about the skirmisher tricks that specifically mention an animal companion, like "Bolster Companion," "Heel," and "Sic 'Em"? If we simply replace "the ranger" with "the hunter's animal companion" in the text of these tricks, they no longer make any sense at all (e.g. "The AnC can use this trick as an immediate action when his AnC is hit...") It can't have been the intention to make these tricks unplayable for Hunters and their AnCs, so some kind of FAQ explanation is needed.

One possible solution, but it's clunky: for those skirmisher's tricks that explicitly reference an AnC, the text should be read as "ranger/skirmisher" = "hunter" and "AnC" = "AnC." For those skirmisher's tricks that don't mention an AnC, the text should be read as "ranger/skirmisher" = "AnC."

Even with this interpretation, the ability is still a mess. If the tricks are options that can replace the standard tricks, as the RAW says, what's the Handle Animal DC for them? The standard tricks all list Handle Animal DCs, which can help prevent an AnC from being trained in the most powerful of tricks at the lowest levels.

And how many of these tricks can an AnC have? By RAW, it looks like my first level Hunter could train his AnC in 7 of these tricks, even though a Skirmisher Ranger gets none until level 5 and will have only 4 of them at level 11. By contrast, an 11th level Hunter who bumped his AnC's INT at level 4 and 8 would have an AnC with 16 tricks (3*4 for INT, plus 4 bonus). Which makes the question of whether there is any limit to how often these tricks can be done even more pressing.

It's a mess. Hopefully we can get a FAQ ruling.

[anlashok]

As it reads right now

-You teach the companion the tricks. That means that "The Ranger" is "The Animal Companion" and anything that allows the ranger to effect his animal companion doesn't work, because the animal companion does not have an animal companion.

-The companion learns them as tricks, not as a skirmisher. This means unlimited uses because they're handle animal tricks now.

-Hunters can teach their animals the skirmisher tricks whenever one could teach them a normal tricks.

That may or may not be RAI and the "FAQ" might say something entirely different, but as it is written in the book right now, that's what the text says.

[Yuri the Barbarian]

Yep, I agree, that's how it's written. But hopefully some FAQ clarification will be forthcoming because it's hard to believe that the ACG intended to:

a) make all of the skirmisher's tricks that reference an AnC (like Heel or Bolster Companion or Sic 'Em) unplayable for the Hunter or the Hunter's AnC;

b) use Ranger's Counsel to give everyone in the party a continuing +2 to any skill;

c) let the AnC always roll twice on any skill check, using Skill Sage;

d) let the AnC have a perpetual +10 to Perception by always using the Uncanny Senses trick.

There may be other weirdnesses besides these but these are the ones that jump out at me as I read the Skirmisher's tricks through the lens of the way the ACG is written.

[Derwalt]

Yup - it's weird. Everyone please click FAQ :)

[Damanta]

The following is on the premise that the skirmisher's hunter's tricks learned to an animal companion function just like other tricks learned to animals.

With handle animal being a free action at DC 10 (or 12 if injured) for animal companions, you could give your companion a load of debilitating riders on his attack with:
Tangling Attack, Distracting Attack, Rattling Strike, Upending Strike which are all free actions before an attack.

End result if the attack is a hit, is an entangled, distracted, rattled, and maybe prone (if the free trip maneuver from upending strike works) enemy, resulting in -6 all attacks, -2 AC from the -4 dex penalty of entangled, -4 to reflex saves, -2 to will/fort, -4 to dex based skillchecks, -2 to other skillchecks, -4 to dexbased ability checks and -2 to other ability checks. Prone condition not even included.

This sounds like GM intervention time or don't go there unless for theorycrafting territory

Edit: does the attack still deal damage or do the tricks replace the damage, I couldn't find that clearly (working of the d20srd for the skirmisher tricks, book not at work).

[Michael Sayre]

Attacks still deal damage. Most Skirmisher tricks are free action riders on regular attacks.

[Dilvias]

It also makes "Eye for Talent" a must have for human hunters. +2 Int to the animal companion means an additional 6 skirmisher tricks... at level 1.

[Damanta]

Human hunter with profession bodyguard, an ape with archetype bodyguard and starting 4 int, martial weapon proficiency greataxe for the ape and 1 rank in linguistics for understanding common to make those handle animal checks obsolete? :P

1d12+3 (13 str ape, +2 str from hunter's animal focus) plus all those riders. Granted, to hit is only at +3, but with flanking trick and maybe some allies to help out.

Then at level 4 the ape grows up, to have 24 str and size large for a 3d6+10 greatsword attack with all those riders, and the flanking bonus is boosted via level 2 outflank and with bodyguard and lookout from level 3 always acting in surprise round.

Granted, it's probably not as effective as a pouncing cat animal, but this just sounds too funny too me. Han Solo and Chewbacca in medieval times.

[Trogdar]

Since skirmish tricks are attack riders, I would probably just state that only one could reasonably be applied to each attack.

It would still be cool to set up combo moves with your pets attacks. "Attack pattern gamma Kittykins!"

[BoloOld]

Damanta wrote:

Human hunter with profession bodyguard, an ape with archetype bodyguard and starting 4 int, martial weapon proficiency greataxe for the ape and 1 rank in linguistics for understanding common to make those handle animal checks obsolete? :P

I think you can argue that tricks might become obsolete at that point, but I don't think you can ever get away from having to make Handle Animal checks (awaken being the exception). Is there a RAW or FAQ I am missing?

Isnt the point of the Handle Animal skill to pretty much wrestle control of your pet from the GM for a round to force it to do what you want instead of what the GM feels an animal would do in the same situation?

Either way, I am holding off on making the Primal Companion Hunter for an upcoming game until I hear about the Hunter's Tricks. Those abilities combined with a nice pool of evolution points just seems like a recipe for being banned from games.

[Michael Sayre]

If you search "smart kitty" you'll find a blog post explaining that no matter how smart your AnC is, it still thinks like an animal and requires you to use handle animal to command it.

[Damanta]

Trogdar wrote:

Since skirmish tricks are attack riders, I would probably just state that only one could reasonably be applied to each attack.

It would still be cool to set up combo moves with your pets attacks. "Attack pattern gamma Kittykins!"

Well, the skirmish tricks I listed are all free actions to be made before an attack. RAW you can just apply them to a single attack. It's balanced for the skirmisher himself by having on a few of those per day available, but that's not clear for the animal companion.

BoloOld wrote:

Damanta wrote:

Human hunter with profession bodyguard, an ape with archetype bodyguard and starting 4 int, martial weapon proficiency greataxe for the ape and 1 rank in linguistics for understanding common to make those handle animal checks obsolete? :P

I think you can argue that tricks might become obsolete at that point, but I don't think you can ever get away from having to make Handle Animal checks (awaken being the exception). Is there a RAW or FAQ I am missing?

Isnt the point of the Handle Animal skill to pretty much wrestle control of your pet from the GM for a round to force it to do what you want instead of what the GM feels an animal would do in the same situation?

Either way, I am holding off on making the Primal Companion Hunter for an upcoming game until I hear about the Hunter's Tricks. Those abilities combined with a nice pool of evolution points just seems like a recipe for being banned from games.

Well, my mentioning of teaching him common and making the handle animal checks obsolete was a little bit in jest. As Ssalarn posted there has been a blog that states you still need to make handle animal checks, but it has been my experience that most of the GM's I've met either forget or handwaive it in the interest of time.

[Victor Zajic]

Well, with a +1 cha modifier and 1 rank in handle animal you never fail to command your animal companion to do a trick that it knows.

I am also very curious how this ability is supposed to work.

[Damanta]

Victor Zajic wrote:

Well, with a +1 cha modifier and 1 rank in handle animal you never fail to command your animal companion to do a trick that it knows.

I am also very curious how this ability is supposed to work.

In that case you can still fail when it's injured, which adds 2 to the handle animal DC.

You can negate this by using a 10 gp training harness, which gives you a +2 to handle animal checks.

My current hunter has a 7 charisma, but still manages +12 handle animal for her mastodon companion at level 1. 1 rank, +4 because it's an animal companion, +3 class skill bonus, +4 trait bonus (Mammoth Master), +2 training harness, -2 stat modifier.

As long as I keep using mastodons/wooly mammoths/megafauna I'll never fail my handle animal checks for my companion.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

So, how would you handle this if you were a PFS GM (until we get an answer)?

I'd like to be able to use these with my Hunter, but the possible range of interpretations is so broad that I'm hoping we can come to some concensus. Infinite uses all the time is clearly not the intent (and stretches RAW IMHO.)

I *think* the intention is that the AC gets (Hunter level/2+Hunter's Wis Bonus) uses per day (total.)
And probably that "Ranger's Animal Companion" be read as "the Animal Companion." But I'm less comfortable claiming that as the default interpretation.

I'd really prefer to have something to point a PFS GM at to clarify, though.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I have to assume that once the hunter class was nearly finished, they noticed that their pets weren't sufficiently better than those of druids, so this was one of those last minute additions.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

So, how would you handle this if you were a PFS GM (until we get an answer)?

I made a sacred huntsman inquisitor who uses the hunter animal companion so have this come up. I try and catch the gm pre game and go "hey what do you think about this?" I've had:

1) RAW, unlimited times per day
2) Once per round (rather than per attack, and can't use 2 tricks in a round)
3) Potential RAI - Wisdom Modifier + 1/2 level.

I tend to be ok with it either way.

I will probably run it as number 2 for the time being. Once per round seems reasonable for the class overall. Over a series of rounds you can drop some debuffs without getting off 5 per hit. IMO, that just barely puts the Hunter AC with Elf/Aasimar Oracle FCB AC even with Animal Focus. I view the hunter as the ultimate companion class(well summoner but...) so imagine putting it on par with an oracle with pet is fair.

Number 3 did it based off my wisdom modifier, so that's something too. If it is three is it:
1) Hunter's Wisdom + Hunters Level
2) AC's Wisdom + AC's HD
3) AC's Wisdom + Hunter Level

I would like to see a definitive answer on this sometime soon.

[AndyTheGM]

This issue has caused a heck of a headache in my game. Eventually we decided to treat them as unlimited with a limit on only using one trick modifier per attack.

Honestly it would be nice if we could get some indication as to what the RAI is for this as a interim while we wait for the FAQ.

Here's hoping this breaks some FAQ request records.

[TGMaxMaxer]

I mentioned this in another thread on the same topic.

So as to avoid a complete knee-jerk over nerf (crane wing anyone?)

Maybe they should limit them like the rogue sneak attack talents, but allow them to be unlimited use.

Anything that applies a rider on an attack, you can only use one trick per attack, so knowing both tripping strike and entangling strike lets you choose different riders for each situation, but avoids the bite plus 5 conditions brokenness that most people are worried about.

For those who still think it overpowered, try requiring each trick to be taken for each type of natural attack, (i.e. tripping strike-claw, tripping strike-bite being 2 separate tricks).

That lets you customize companions for situation where they do minimal damage (DR) without making them useless or broken.

[Marc Radle]

You might want to check this thread as well

Hunter Class (ACG) Teaching His Animal Companion Skirmisher Tricks???

Owen K. C. Stephens popped in and made a few good comments.

Here is a revised version of the text I came up with based on Owen's comments. It's by no means official but it's pretty good until the official ACG errata comes out

Animal Companion (Ex):
A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks. In this case, the animal companion is considered to be the 'ranger' for purposes of the trick. The animal companion can use such tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 the animal companion's HD + its Wisdom bonus (if any). Note that some skirmisher hunter’s tricks are not suitable for animal companions.

[Jinjifra]

Marc Radle wrote:

You might want to check this thread as well

Hunter Class (ACG) Teaching His Animal Companion Skirmisher Tricks???

Owen K. C. Stephens popped in and made a few good comments.

Here is a revised version of the text I came up with based on Owen's comments. It's by no means official but it's pretty good until the official ACG errata comes out

Animal Companion (Ex):
A hunter may teach her companion hunter’s tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 128) instead of standard tricks. In this case, the animal companion is considered to be the 'ranger' for purposes of the trick. The animal companion can use such tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 the animal companion's HD + its Wisdom bonus (if any). Note that some skirmisher hunter’s tricks are not suitable for animal companions.

I could see that being the final ruling but I really hope it isn't. At the cost of a trick slot and considering that most companions don't have very good wisdom mods, it would make the ability pretty bad.

Unlimited can get a little absurd though with every attack adding four effects.

I hope it falls something along the lines of unlimited but you can only use one trick per turn, but maybe that's just because I like the hunter a lot as a class.

[Michael Sayre]

Jinjifra wrote:

I could see that being the final ruling but I really hope it isn't. At the cost of a trick slot and considering that most companions don't have very good wisdom mods, it would make the ability pretty bad.

Unlimited can get a little absurd though with every attack adding four effects.

I hope it falls something along the lines of unlimited but you can only use one trick per turn, but maybe that's just because I like the hunter a lot as a class.

Agreed on all fronts. The Skirmisher tricks were a very mediocre replacement for Ranger spellcasting when they were on a chassis that had full BAB and Favored Enemy/Terrain boosting their effectiveness, but having them top out at 7 uses a day on a creature whose BAB caps at +12 is just this side of worthless, especially when they're competing for space with the must-have animal companion tricks like Flank, Menace, Bombard (for flying), etc. And there's the fact that combat training + the mandatory second attack training for your pet to attack unnatural creatures already eats up your first 7 tricks.

Base Skirmisher: By 20th level has 8 known tricks, at least 10 uses/day, +20 BAB, up to +10 to hit against Favored Enemies, plus stat and weapon enhancements, etc.

Hunter's Pet: Under the proposed change could potentially have around the same 8 known tricks by sacrificing other animal functionality like tracking, guarding, etc., 7 uses/day, +12 BAB, potentially situational bonuses from Teamwork feats, much more expensive and limited options for enchanting weapons

A FAQ changing the skirmisher abilities on the pet to match the suggested reading would not be one I'd be happy about.

[Calth]

Continuing from the other thread, the limited uses is most likely the right RAI. In the slayer discussion thread, Mark confirmed that the general ranger restrictions on combat styles applied to slayer's taking combat styles as talents. Basically, general restrictions on abilities apply even if you gain that ability from a different source. So the general usage restrictions on skirmisher tricks should apply to hunters as well.

Here is the post.

[Michael Sayre]

To be perfectly honest, I have strong reason to suspect there was no RAI as regards the Skirmisher tricks. I hate to say it, but I honestly believe it was thrown on to the chassis late in the game by someone who figured it'd get polished up down the line, which then never happened. Or possibly someone working crunch hours added it in with an intent to backtrack and hash out the fine details but then forgot about it in the mad rush to get the book out for GenCon.

And since most of the work on the class was done by a designer who's no longer with the company, we may never know exactly what the game plan was there or if there even was one, we'll get the best interpretation or compromise the current design team comes up with.

[Faelyn]

So far the way I've seen most PFS GMs running it is unlimited usage per day, but limiting one skirmisher trick per attack. I do not see this as overpowered at all. The whole gimmick behind the hunter is a powerful synergy between the PC and their AC. If the official errata is to limit them to use per day... then it's a wasted ability that I don't many folks will even burn precious tricks on. It almost forces you to pump your AC's INT just to get access to more tricks.

[Faelyn]

Sorry for the double post, but as I was posting a reply to one of the other Hunter/Skirmisher threads I thought about another option for those folks who say that allowing skirmisher tricks willy-nilly is far too powerful, I submit the following options:

Option 1: Unlimited usage per day with requiring the sacrifice of trick slots (valuable commodity for Hunters who rely on their ACs more than any other class, hands down); however, the usage of the Skirmisher Trick to be a Full-Round Action by the animal companion. You've eliminated the ridiculousness of people trying to stack more than one skirmisher trick per attack. This also helps to eliminate the over usage of the skirmisher tricks (which I agree are quite powerful options).

Option 2: Limited usage per day based off 1/2 HD + Wis Mod. If we are going to restrict the access to usage, there should be a balancing factor. I propose the Skirmisher Tricks should not require sacrificing Trick Slots to learn the Skirmisher Tricks. Perhaps the Hunter can teach his AC a certain number of Skirmisher Tricks, or even make the bonus tricks as the number of known Skirmisher Tricks that a Hunter's AC can know.

Both options provide the Hunter AC with options that make them more viable than a druid/ranger AC. I believe we can all agree that a Hunter's AC should be more powerful, because without their ACs, Hunters are weak (unlike the Druid/Ranger).

[TGMaxMaxer]

Balance can be struck by leaving them unlimited, but only one per attack, and possibly requiring each trick be tied to a single type of natural attack when chosen, to get Upending Strike on both claws and bite requires 2 tricks.

Making them a Full round action means that they will be ignored and pets that have abilities (such as wolf-trip, bear-grab, etc) will be taken instead of wasting a full round on a single attack with a rider that after level 6 is fairly useless (creatures size up faster than ACs, and or flying, AC BAB vs CMD scaling, etc.)

Also, the idea of limiting them in uses/day of 1/2 HD + wis mod means many AC can't use them (neg wis mods) until the time when they start to be useless, again meaning that only certain AC are actually combat viable.

For a class that is built around taking a pet and synergizing combat abilities, both of those choices seem weak.

AC BAB scaling is 3/4, and no one acuses a 3/4 BAB class (outside of a few very niche builds) and the imp trip feat of being too powerful, why is it so different with an AC?

This is a way for animals (who will never get the 13 int with a few notable exceptions) to actually get the combat maneuvers: trip and a limited version of dirty trick. Making it any harder for them to use them than it would be for a character is a knee-jerk reaction from people who either haven't bothered or don't understand the number crunch involved in getting them to work.

[Faelyn]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Balance can be struck by leaving them unlimited, but only one per attack, and possibly requiring each trick be tied to a single type of natural attack when chosen, to get Upending Strike on both claws and bite requires 2 tricks.

Making them a Full round action means that they will be ignored and pets that have abilities (such as wolf-trip, bear-grab, etc) will be taken instead of wasting a full round on a single attack with a rider that after level 6 is fairly useless (creatures size up faster than ACs, and or flying, AC BAB vs CMD scaling, etc.)

Also, the idea of limiting them in uses/day of 1/2 HD + wis mod means many AC can't use them (neg wis mods) until the time when they start to be useless, again meaning that only certain AC are actually combat viable.

For a class that is built around taking a pet and synergizing combat abilities, both of those choices seem weak.

AC BAB scaling is 3/4, and no one acuses a 3/4 BAB class (outside of a few very niche builds) and the imp trip feat of being too powerful, why is it so different with an AC?

This is a way for animals (who will never get the 13 int with a few notable exceptions) to actually get the combat maneuvers: trip and a limited version of dirty trick. Making it any harder for them to use them than it would be for a character is a knee-jerk reaction from people who either haven't bothered or don't understand the number crunch involved in getting them to work.

Oh, don't mistake my above post TGMaxMaxer as wanting to reduce the overall power of the Animal Companions. I completely agree that leaving it as unlimited usage per day and only allowing 1 per attack is not overpowered, nor game unbalancing. I would prefer it be ruled in favor of that; however, in an attempt to avoid the "knee-jerk" reaction and making this ability utterly worthless... I am merely suggesting an alternative to what most people (those who think unlimited usage is OP) are proposing.

Most anti-unlimited usage argue it should still force you to sacrifice a Trick slot AND only be able to use them 1/2 HD + Wis modifier. That's completely weak and pointless, reducing the viability of the hunter in combat (which the Hunter is a pure combat class, anyone who attempts to argue otherwise has clearly not looked at it in depth).

My post in the other thread broke down the hunter as compared to its base classes. The Hunter without its AC is pointless; the AC is the only thing that makes this class stand out. If the skirmisher abilities are determined to have limited use/day by the developers, then there needs to be some sort of balance. I'd rather see Unlimited usage/day, but too many people will probably cry "OMGZ THAT"S OP!!! NERF TEH HUNTER!!!!". And therefore perhaps by limiting the Skirmisher Tricks in someway to avoid a limited usage per day... I'd rather see it made a Standard Action or Full-Round Action... to help balance it.

[Faelyn]

Well... It's been almost two weeks since the most recent update to the ACG FAQ and still no word on this. I'm really hoping we will get an update soon.

[slin2678]

I think what a lot of people missed is the in the description of skirmisher tricks.

Hunter's Trick description wrote:

At 5th level, a skirmisher Ranger learns the use of hunter’s tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the Ranger or a nearby ally. At 5th level, the Ranger learns one trick, selected from the list below. At 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, he learns another trick. A Ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his Ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can’t be retrained. A Ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once.

An AnC cannot make multiple attacks that trip, entangle, distract, etc. because these tricks all modify a standard action, which, to me, means only one trick per standard and cannot be used in conjunction with a full-round attack. Nothing stops it from using surprise shift and then chameleon step to double movement in the same round as well though.

EDIT: If you read the individual trick descriptions, it makes it more clear that the trick applies uniquely to a standard. i.e.

Tangling Attack wrote:

Tangling Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this attack as a free action when he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target is entangled for 1 round.

The use of this indicates that while activating the trick is a free action, it is a specific attack and not an add-on to the attack action.

[claudekennilol]

Yeah, after just making a hunter, info on this would be great.

Disregarding the amount of times it can/can't be used, if a wolf with bite/trip were to also use Upending Strike (if next attack hits get a free trip attack), then would that result in two trip attempts?

[Chess Pwn]

They are putting out a FAQ on Fridays. And last Friday's faq went under "Core Rulebook" but it was about double wisdom stacking from the sacred fist and monk. That being one of the big reasons for them needing to make a ruling about it. They are also really trying to figure out the changing DICE for changing attack sizes. So they'll spend a lot of time with that, and if it wont be done by this friday, they'll quickly do an easy FAQ for this friday.

[claudekennilol]

Chess Pwn wrote:

They are putting out a FAQ on Fridays. And last Friday's faq went under "Core Rulebook" but it was about double wisdom stacking from the sacred fist and monk. That being one of the big reasons for them needing to make a ruling about it. They are also really trying to figure out the changing DICE for changing attack sizes. So they'll spend a lot of time with that, and if it wont be done by this friday, they'll quickly do an easy FAQ for this friday.

This should be easy, though. It was obviously intended to work in a specific way, all they have to do is tell us what that way is because the book doesn't say.

[Chess Pwn]

just because it's easy doesn't mean it's high on their consider list. It very well could come out this friday, it might take a month or more. It just depends on how many "big" faqs they do, and how long they'll spend. I feel that as long as they keep doing a faq a friday that they'll get to all the important faqs in a reasonable amount of time.

[claudekennilol]

Chess Pwn wrote:

just because it's easy doesn't mean it's high on their consider list. It very well could come out this friday, it might take a month or more. It just depends on how many "big" faqs they do, and how long they'll spend. I feel that as long as they keep doing a faq a friday that they'll get to all the important faqs in a reasonable amount of time.

Right. Your point appeared to be "they won't answer this on Friday because they're working on hard stuff and they only have time for easy stuff." I was just saying this should be one of those easy things.

[Chess Pwn]

Right, and if we're lucky this will be the easy one they answer. But there are also other easy stuff. Like if the skald got a skill. So while this is an easy one there's no way to know if this will be the easy one they pick.

[Jayder22]

I looked for the post and I couldn't find it, so I don't know if it was retracted, or I am remembering it wrong but...

I saw a post by the writer of the pregens when they posted that the ACG pregens had been released. It alluded to differing opinions on the design team on how it should work, which is why he didn't include any skirmisher tricks with the pregen.

If that is the case and I am not remembering it wrong, than they may be trying to come to a consensus which could explain any delay.

[Michael Sayre]

slin2678 wrote:

I think what a lot of people missed is the in the description of skirmisher tricks.

Hunter's Trick description wrote:

At 5th level, a skirmisher Ranger learns the use of hunter’s tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the Ranger or a nearby ally. At 5th level, the Ranger learns one trick, selected from the list below. At 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, he learns another trick. A Ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his Ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can’t be retrained. A Ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once.

An AnC cannot make multiple attacks that trip, entangle, distract, etc. because these tricks all modify a standard action, which, to me, means only one trick per standard and cannot be used in conjunction with a full-round attack. Nothing stops it from using surprise shift and then chameleon step to double movement in the same round as well though.

EDIT: If you read the individual trick descriptions, it makes it more clear that the trick applies uniquely to a standard. i.e.

Tangling Attack wrote:

Tangling Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this attack as a free action when he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target is entangled for 1 round.

The use of this indicates that while activating the trick is a free action, it is a specific attack and not an add-on to the attack action.

I hadn't noticed that before, but that does make a fairly substantial difference in evaluating relative power. Also, wow, skirmisher tricks are even weaker than I thought :/

[claudekennilol]

Ssalarn wrote:

slin2678 wrote:

I think what a lot of people missed is the in the description of skirmisher tricks.

Hunter's Trick description wrote:

At 5th level, a skirmisher Ranger learns the use of hunter’s tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the Ranger or a nearby ally. At 5th level, the Ranger learns one trick, selected from the list below. At 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, he learns another trick. A Ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his Ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can’t be retrained. A Ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once.

An AnC cannot make multiple attacks that trip, entangle, distract, etc. because these tricks all modify a standard action, which, to me, means only one trick per standard and cannot be used in conjunction with a full-round attack. Nothing stops it from using surprise shift and then chameleon step to double movement in the same round as well though.

EDIT: If you read the individual trick descriptions, it makes it more clear that the trick applies uniquely to a standard. i.e.

Tangling Attack wrote:

Tangling Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this attack as a free action when he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target is entangled for 1 round.

The use of this indicates that while activating the trick is a free action, it is a specific attack and not an add-on to the attack action.

I hadn't noticed that before, but that does make a fairly substantial difference in evaluating relative power. Also, wow, skirmisher tricks are even weaker than I thought :/

Key word being "sometimes". They're definitely not that weak. The more specific wording in each trick denotes when it can be used. "Before a melee attack" is the most common wording and melee attacks are individual parts of a full-attack.

[Michael Sayre]

It does say pretty specifically that they modify standard actions, which are usually attack actions...

The wording is "Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action."

There are three types of action a trick can be: a swift, a move, or a free action that modifies a standard action like an attack action. There's nowhere in there allowing them to modify other action types. So when the trick says "The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack" it's talking about the type of attack he can make with his standard action attack action. In context, that's definitely what it says.

[Faelyn]

Unfortunately, the Hunter PreGen does NOT have any Skirmisher tricks yet. The Developer who made the Hunter PreGen stated they avoided it due to the questionable nature and was worried that would be considered an official ruling. Therefore they were waiting on the official word before aiding any Skirmisher tricks.

Also, to add to the argument, it's very clear only one trick was intended per attack. The main question at this point for most people is the following; Are these unlimited usage per day? Or is it based off the Wis + 1/2 HD per day equivalent to the Skirmisher archetype.

Also... I didn't realize Paizo was doing FAQs every Friday. That's awesome.

[Michael Sayre]

Faelyn wrote:

Unfortunately, the Hunter PreGen does NOT have any Skirmisher tricks yet. The Developer who made the Hunter PreGen stated they avoided it due to the questionable nature and was worried that would be considered an official ruling. Therefore they were waiting on the official word before aiding any Skirmisher tricks.

Also, to add to the argument, it's very clear only one trick was intended per attack. The main question at this point for most people is the following; Are these unlimited usage per day? Or is it based off the Wis + 1/2 HD per day equivalent to the Skirmisher archetype.

Also... I didn't realize Paizo was doing FAQs every Friday. That's awesome.

Put me in the camp of hoping they're unlimited usage per day. They're competing with regular tricks which are pretty essential to successfully doing things in combat (like flanking, attacking, moving, guarding, following you into gods-forsaken pits of doom...), and to use the attack oriented ones you need to make a successful Handle Animal check (requires a minimum of 2 skill points to guarantee you can make this command, more if you dump CHA), and the creature receiving that command then needs to land a successful melee attack with a BAB that tops at +12 at 20th level. Oh, and you need to dump enough resources into said critter to make sure it's alive and under your control to receive and execute said command in the first place.

Unlike the Ranger with his Favored class features he can share with his pet and his own full BAB and bonus feats that work regardless of whether or not he has a pet, or the Druid who has 9 level spellcasting and the ability to turn into a destructive force of nature, the Hunter's thing is his pet, and the pet needs to be able to consistently perform like that's the case.

[Faelyn]

Also... here's the post from the Hunter PreGen designer I believe you were looking for.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Faelyn wrote:

Marc Radle wrote:

For those have downloaded this, does the hunter pregen's animal companion know any Skirmisher ranger hunter's tricks? If so, I'd be interested to see how that was handled, given the known amiguity in that rule ...

Unfortunately... Leryn does not know any Skirmisher tricks, just the standard tricks. I was likewise hoping to see something on the Pregen; however, it seems they are just as unsure about the ruling as we are.

As the one who built the pregens, I can say that, rather, I didn't want to build a pregen that then was invalidated because the PDT together ruled differently than I would. It is on my Top 10(ish) list of high-priority FAQs, though.

Ssalarn, I completely agree. My post above argues why I believe they should be unlimited usage per day. However, TL;DR, I argue that the Hunter is only a viable class compared to all other AC having classes when you add in the Skirmisher tricks. The solo Hunter is nothing without his AC, whereas druids and rangers don't even need their ACs. By restricting it to usage per day really limits the Hunters in combat, especially when you consider a Hunter AC will cap out at 5+Wis modifier / day for PFS play. If you're lucky and chose an AC with a positive Wis mod, then you might have 6-7 per day. That's not much at all and those tricks are really what beef up the Hunter AC compared to all other ACs.

[Michael Sayre]

I did a couple builds, and you'll notice by 20th level I'd spent only 5 of 16 tricks on skirmisher tricks, and only about 3 of those on actual attack tricks. There's just too much else the Hunter's AnC needs to know.

I wouldn't say that limiting the tricks completely invalidates the Hunter, but it does make him unnecessarily weaker than other classes in that Tier 3 block (Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, etc.), and does make it a very real possibility that you will waste all of your skirmisher tricks for absolutely no effect. The whole low BAB, limited-feats-unless-you-spend-even-more-resources thing combined with the fact that your pet isn't getting the big Favored Enemy bonuses of the Ranger or the faster and higher progression buffs of the druid.

And as you noted Faelyn, for the Ranger and Druid the pet is a replaceable perk. For the Hunter, the Pet is pretty much your entire class. The ability to summon animals slightly faster and stat or skill boost is not going to replace all of your defunct teamwork feats and tactics if your pet goes down, so that thing needs to be a good cut above other AnCs.

[Faelyn]

Ssalarn wrote:

I did a couple builds, and you'll notice by 20th level I'd spent only 5 of 16 tricks on skirmisher tricks, and only about 3 of those on actual attack tricks. There's just too much else the Hunter's AnC needs to know.

I wouldn't say that limiting the tricks completely invalidates the Hunter, but it does make him unnecessarily weaker than other classes in that Tier 3 block (Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, etc.), and does make it a very real possibility that you will waste all of your skirmisher tricks for absolutely no effect. The whole low BAB, limited-feats-unless-you-spend-even-more-resources thing combined with the fact that your pet isn't getting the big Favored Enemy bonuses of the Ranger or the faster and higher progression buffs of the druid.

And as you noted Faelyn, for the Ranger and Druid the pet is a replaceable perk. For the Hunter, the Pet is pretty much your entire class. The ability to summon animals slightly faster and stat or skill boost is not going to replace all of your defunct teamwork feats and tactics if your pet goes down, so that thing needs to be a good cut above other AnCs.

Exactly! A druid is awesome without their pet. A ranger is awesome without their pet. A hunter without their pet is... well... a 3/4 BAB, 6th level (Druid/Ranger spell list...) caster with a bunch of Teamwork feats that don't function... You hit the nail right on the head.

Also, I don't think limiting the tricks invalidates the hunter, but I feel that it invalidates the skirmisher tricks. If it's limited to 1/2 HD + Wis mod., then I'm going to drop all but the absolute necessary and fill up with Standard tricks. Right now my 1st level Hunter's wolf knows 5 skirmisher tricks. I probably will stop playing him before I level up to 2nd level so I can rebuild my wolf's tricks if need be.