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Longbows and shortbows no, however I'm still trying to find the vestigial arms and twf faq to figure out if dual wielding crossbows would work, since you can two weapon wield them, but usually can't reload. I have to see if the vestigial arms can reload while your normal arms attack.
The only thing vestigial arms cannot do is grant extra attacks. They can reload, hold a shield, act as the off-hand for a weapon, etc.
If I was a magus two-handing a sword, using a shield, and keeping a hand free for spell combat, this conversation would not be happening.
Let's forget about Vestigial Arms for a moment.
Now, a player chooses to two-weapon fight, with a Bow, and an Unarmed Strike.
Is there a reason to not accept this?
Nope, that's totally fine too.
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vestigial arms basically can do nothing but wield shields as they don't allow you any gained actions.
People seem to be skipping over this line:
though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine(using two-weapon fighting)
And this bit:
The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb).
Yes: Vestigial arms are expressly permitted to wield weapons, and to contribute with those weapons while two-weapon fighting.
Let's forget about Vestigial Arms for a moment.
Now, a player chooses to two-weapon fight, with a Bow, and an Unarmed Strike.
Is there a reason to not accept this?
Yes. A bow uses two hands to wield, if you attack with it you've used your two hands for that attack. So you can't do an off hand since you've used both hands already.
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Yes. A bow uses two hands to wield, if you attack with it you've used your two hands for that attack. So you can't do an off hand since you've used both hands already.Let's forget about Vestigial Arms for a moment.
Now, a player chooses to two-weapon fight, with a Bow, and an Unarmed Strike.
Is there a reason to not accept this?
I've used two of my hands.
I still have two more.
A race that normally only has two hands only has two hands of stuff they can do. Even if they get more hands.
Even with extra arms there are no rules for or against dual wielding anything other than one-handed or light weapons. In 3.5 there was a monster known as an arrow demon that could use two bows at the same time but I think it had a special ability . With that aside considering the damage that archery puts out I doubt many GM's would allow it.There ARE two weapon fighting rules for bows. The Bow Nomad Archetype. "When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a -4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows."
Those are for that archetype not general rules but with that said what book is that in?
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A Bow is not a two-handed weapon.
You cannot even begin to use the odd FAQ, based of unwritten rules, focused on two-handed weapons, like the greatsword, and two-weapon fighting, to apply some unwritten restriction, that contradicts RAW, and suddenly make a Bow a two-handed weapon, and deny it's use in two-weapon fighting.
Seriously, you push this, but still say one can't use Rapid Shot with Daggers or Spears, because they are supposedly "not Ranged weapons".
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A Bow is not a two-handed weapon.
You cannot even begin to use the odd FAQ, based of unwritten rules, focused on two-handed weapons, like the greatsword, and two-weapon fighting, to apply some unwritten restriction, that contradicts RAW, and suddenly make a Bow a two-handed weapon, and deny it's use in two-weapon fighting.
Seriously, you push this, but still say one can't use Rapid Shot with Daggers or Spears, because they are supposedly "not Ranged weapons".
It says right in a bows description that you must use both hands to use it, even if it's not classified as a two handed weapon, you still use both hands to attack with it. And the FAQ doesn't contradict RAW, it's explains it, as the wording is a little vague.
It says right in a bows description that you must use both hands to use it, even if it's not classified as a two handed weapon, you still use both hands to attack with it. And the FAQ doesn't contradict RAW, it's explains it, as the wording is a little vague.A Bow is not a two-handed weapon.
You cannot even begin to use the odd FAQ, based of unwritten rules, focused on two-handed weapons, like the greatsword, and two-weapon fighting, to apply some unwritten restriction, that contradicts RAW, and suddenly make a Bow a two-handed weapon, and deny it's use in two-weapon fighting.
Seriously, you push this, but still say one can't use Rapid Shot with Daggers or Spears, because they are supposedly "not Ranged weapons".
The FAQ directly contradicts RAW, and the FAQ from the previous version of the game that had the exact same language.
The entire reason anyone ever talks about "unwritten RAW" is because that term started getting tossed around by the dev team after the FAQ in acknowledgement of the fact that it was in contradiction to existing precedent but was inline with some meta-rules concept only known to the dev team.
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I don't think the devs would allow TWF'ing with a bow because you are still using both hands to make an attack happen, even if the bow is not a two handed weapon.
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It says right in a bows description that you must use both hands to use it, even if it's not classified as a two handed weapon, you still use both hands to attack with it. And the FAQ doesn't contradict RAW, it's explains it, as the wording is a little vague.A Bow is not a two-handed weapon.
You cannot even begin to use the odd FAQ, based of unwritten rules, focused on two-handed weapons, like the greatsword, and two-weapon fighting, to apply some unwritten restriction, that contradicts RAW, and suddenly make a Bow a two-handed weapon, and deny it's use in two-weapon fighting.
Seriously, you push this, but still say one can't use Rapid Shot with Daggers or Spears, because they are supposedly "not Ranged weapons".
Requiring two-hands to use does not make it a two-handed weapon.
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Okay, I think I see the problem here. I'm not using the Two Handed weapon FAQ and applying it to Bows, I'm using the Vestigial Arms and Two Weapon Fighting FAQ here. I agree by RAW, that you could use a two handed weapon and armor spikes. Then they decided to change that afterwards. That doesn't change the fact that in the vestigial arms discovery it states you do not gain an additional attack or action. Kinda vague what that really means, which is why they made the FAQ that brings out the concept of two hands, no matter how many hands you have.
I don't think the devs would allow TWF'ing with a bow because you are still using both hands to make an attack happen, even if the bow is not a two handed weapon.
I agree that the devs would say no to this. I also believe they would be wrong based on the current rules-language and wrong for limiting non-broken options.
Actually, I also agree that they would say no to this because it is potentially something mildly neat a character could do not using magic (TWF bow/IUS) which is something we just can't have in pathfinder.
Okay, I think I see the problem here. I'm not using the Two Handed weapon FAQ and applying it to Bows, I'm using the Vestigial Arms and Two Weapon Fighting FAQ here. I agree by RAW, that you could use a two handed weapon and armor spikes. Then they decided to change that afterwards. That doesn't change the fact that in the vestigial arms discovery it states you do not gain an additional attack or action. Kinda vague what that really means, which is why they made the FAQ that brings out the concept of two hands, no matter how many hands you have.
I think it is easier to look at if it is broken down. You are a human with 4 limbs. You have a BAB of +6. You can hold two bows and use each once in the same round with the attacks granted from BAB.
Or, if you want, you could kick, kick. Or you could kick, kick, kick. Or you could bow, kick. Or you could bow, kick, kick. I don't think anyone here could reasonably deny any of these.
It follows that you would be able to bow, bow, bow.
Those are for that archetype not general rules but with that said what book is that in?Even with extra arms there are no rules for or against dual wielding anything other than one-handed or light weapons. In 3.5 there was a monster known as an arrow demon that could use two bows at the same time but I think it had a special ability . With that aside considering the damage that archery puts out I doubt many GM's would allow it.There ARE two weapon fighting rules for bows. The Bow Nomad Archetype. "When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a -4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows."
It doesn't look that way to me. It says "two weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting" Then goes on to explain what those are "Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a -4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows".
I'm not saying that 2 bow fighting is possible with Vestigial Arms, just that we know how it'd work if it does. I'll not get into that debate as I found the whole 'unwritten hand rule' FAQ silly and not in keeping with the actual RAW or what makes sense IMO. this just seems like it'll go further down the rabbit hole. :P
As to what book: People of the Stars, pg#8
Those are for that archetype not general rules but with that said what book is that in?Even with extra arms there are no rules for or against dual wielding anything other than one-handed or light weapons. In 3.5 there was a monster known as an arrow demon that could use two bows at the same time but I think it had a special ability . With that aside considering the damage that archery puts out I doubt many GM's would allow it.There ARE two weapon fighting rules for bows. The Bow Nomad Archetype. "When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a -4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows."It doesn't look that way to me. It says "two weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting" Then goes on to explain what those are "Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a -4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows".
I'm not saying that 2 bow fighting is possible with Vestigial Arms, just that we know how it'd work if it does. I'll not get into that debate as I found the whole 'unwritten hand rule' FAQ silly and not in keeping with the actual RAW or what makes sense IMO. this just seems like it'll go further down the rabbit hole. :P
As to what book: People of the Stars, pg#8
They call it a fighting style for that race. That to me means it is not a rule. It can also mean whoever wrote it misinterpreted the rule, and it got past editing. An entire archetype was released by accident before.
edit: Thanks for the book info. :)
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I really not for, or against, twin Bow builds.
Now, this insane idea that one cannot combine an attack with a Bow, and an unarmed strikes?
Not having it.
Extrapolating additional unwritten rules, from a FAQ, based on unwritten rules, that contradict RAW?
To that, I have a metaphorical hand, making a metaphorical rude gesture.
I really not for, or against, twin Bow builds.
Now, this insane idea that one cannot combine an attack with a Bow, and an unarmed strikes?
Not having it.
Extrapolating additional unwritten rules, from a FAQ, based on unwritten rules, that contradict RAW?
To that, I have a metaphorical hand, making a metaphorical rude gesture.
A while back I converted the arrow demon from 3.5 into pathfinder, and since PF gives more feats I gave him deadly aim, and manyshot. It was somewhat ridiculous. I then decided such a monstrosity should not be unleashed against PC's or NPC's.
I think a PC based build that is similar would still do at least 70% more damage than only using one bow, and it would put zen archers to shame.
No even with extra weapon wielding arms which vestigial arms are not, humanoid body mechanics wont allow it to work. You pull bows across your body much longer than a single arm length. If you do it on the right you can't simultaneously do it on the left.There are a lot of real world mechanics that simply don't apply to Pathfinder.
Trying to go down that path is just going to cause you to disagree with a lot of RAW.
Yeah for some reason it is not the fire breathing dragons or the ki powered punches that throw me but this is simply something human shaped could do even with enough arms. I guess I am a muggle.
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Okay, I think I see the problem here. I'm not using the Two Handed weapon FAQ and applying it to Bows, I'm using the Vestigial Arms and Two Weapon Fighting FAQ here. I agree by RAW, that you could use a two handed weapon and armor spikes. Then they decided to change that afterwards. That doesn't change the fact that in the vestigial arms discovery it states you do not gain an additional attack or action. Kinda vague what that really means, which is why they made the FAQ that brings out the concept of two hands, no matter how many hands you have.I think it is easier to look at if it is broken down. You are a human with 4 limbs. You have a BAB of +6. You can hold two bows and use each once in the same round with the attacks granted from BAB.
Or, if you want, you could kick, kick. Or you could kick, kick, kick. Or you could bow, kick. Or you could bow, kick, kick. I don't think anyone here could reasonably deny any of these.
It follows that you would be able to bow, bow, bow.
It's very reasonable to deny bow, bow, bow. With only two hands can you bow x3? No. So when you grow two more hands you also cannot bow x3. Because that's what the rule is.
If the person in question was born with 4 arms i guess i could see them using 2 bows to fire at once or close enough to it. But if you just happened to gain 2 new arms i would say NO. They said in midevil England they started training long bowmen from childhood so think how long it would take to learn to master using 2 bows at once. So just gaining 2 new arms shouldn't let you use 2 bows.
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If the person in question was born with 4 arms i guess i could see them using 2 bows to fire at once or close enough to it. But if you just happened to gain 2 new arms i would say NO. They said in midevil England they started training long bowmen from childhood so think how long it would take to learn to master using 2 bows at once. So just gaining 2 new arms shouldn't let you use 2 bows.
Right, because after someone magically grows two new arms the immersion-breaking issue is that they use 2 bows.
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yea....
Can I ever dual wield Longbows as a human?
Yes.
However, it requires ten levels of summoner to gain Aspect (used for the Limbs (Arms) evolution). Because the arms from the evolution are fully functional, unlike the Vestigial Arm alchemist discovery, the summoner qualifies for Multi-Weapon Fighting (with 13+ Dex) and/or can use two two-handed weapons (including longbows, if the character spends a feat for Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow) or dips in class that grants proficiency with all martial weapons).
Actually I do think it is far harder to belive that some one with 4 arms could wield 2 bows than sprout them in the first place.
In a world with magic around every corner i don't find it hard to believe someone grew 2 new arms, with wizards and all sorts of others who could do it. But them picking up and firing 2 bows all of a sudden i find hard to believe.
The game world makes me believe anything is possible with magic. But not everything is probable.
Bah grow them thru sheer force of will. There is no other way to grow a proper set of arms than that. And if your gm says no, kick him in his teeth. That will fix him up good :)
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If the person in question was born with 4 arms i guess i could see them using 2 bows to fire at once or close enough to it. But if you just happened to gain 2 new arms i would say NO. They said in midevil England they started training long bowmen from childhood so think how long it would take to learn to master using 2 bows at once. So just gaining 2 new arms shouldn't let you use 2 bows.
RAW makes no distinction based upon when you assumed a form.
RAW also makes no distinction based on when in life you gain proficiency with a weapon.
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Bah grow them thru sheer force of will. There is no other way to grow a proper set of arms than that. And if your gm says no, kick him in his teeth. That will fix him up good :)
Greater Hat of Disguise allows 24/7 Alter Self, which allows 4 fully functional arms.
Any Angelkin aasimar, regardless of class, can cast Alter Self once per day.
Various higher level spells in the polymorph school allow forms with up to six arms.
Eidolons can grow additional arms as they advance.
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I gained "Proficiency" with a Longbow, but didn't dedicate my entire childhood to it. Those who were "trained from childhood" are masters, not merely proficient.
If you want proof I'm Proficient with the Longbow, I have 2 Collage Credits in Archery :)
Likewise, using two at once doesn't require you to have had the 4 arms and trained with the bows from birth, that is why there are such steep to hit penalties for TWF.
It's very reasonable to deny bow, bow, bow. With only two hands can you bow x3? No. So when you grow two more hands you also cannot bow x3. Because that's what the rule is.Okay, I think I see the problem here. I'm not using the Two Handed weapon FAQ and applying it to Bows, I'm using the Vestigial Arms and Two Weapon Fighting FAQ here. I agree by RAW, that you could use a two handed weapon and armor spikes. Then they decided to change that afterwards. That doesn't change the fact that in the vestigial arms discovery it states you do not gain an additional attack or action. Kinda vague what that really means, which is why they made the FAQ that brings out the concept of two hands, no matter how many hands you have.I think it is easier to look at if it is broken down. You are a human with 4 limbs. You have a BAB of +6. You can hold two bows and use each once in the same round with the attacks granted from BAB.
Or, if you want, you could kick, kick. Or you could kick, kick, kick. Or you could bow, kick. Or you could bow, kick, kick. I don't think anyone here could reasonably deny any of these.
It follows that you would be able to bow, bow, bow.
So for a regular human with +6 BAB, you say it is ok to use one attack to use the bow and one to kick?
What about a regular human who uses one attack to bow and their off-attack to kick?
An extra attack would be any attack that couldn't be done if you didn't have the arms. This isn't a powerful discovery. Also dual wielding bows is super strong because you're doing STR at range. No it is not a THW but it does take two hands to wield. That is why it consumes your main and off hand, because it uses two hands to wield, just like THW.
as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
Now this doesn't care if your weapon was a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon with two hands, or a bow. They all are using two hands to wield, thus consuming your off hand.
Since they made a rule about when you can use an off had it's now in effect. Using a bow and off-hand kick is the same as greatsword and armorspikes, which they specifically disallow.This rule is about wielding, not the weapon type it was.
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as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.Now this doesn't care if your weapon was a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon with two hands, or a bow. They all are using two hands to wield, thus consuming your off hand.
Since they made a rule about when you can use an off had it's now in effect. Using a bow and off-hand kick is the same as greatsword and armorspikes, which they specifically disallow.This rule is about wielding, not the weapon type it was.
That FAQ is written with off-hand as a singular.
The non-standard body forms we are discussion have off-hands; plural.
What are you going to do when a summoner (not an eidolon, the summoner) shows up with 4-8 fully functional arms?
Thought this would be helpful, since I dont think I've seen anyone mention it yet.
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
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It's very reasonable to deny bow, bow, bow. With only two hands can you bow x3? No. So when you grow two more hands you also cannot bow x3. Because that's what the rule is.Okay, I think I see the problem here. I'm not using the Two Handed weapon FAQ and applying it to Bows, I'm using the Vestigial Arms and Two Weapon Fighting FAQ here. I agree by RAW, that you could use a two handed weapon and armor spikes. Then they decided to change that afterwards. That doesn't change the fact that in the vestigial arms discovery it states you do not gain an additional attack or action. Kinda vague what that really means, which is why they made the FAQ that brings out the concept of two hands, no matter how many hands you have.I think it is easier to look at if it is broken down. You are a human with 4 limbs. You have a BAB of +6. You can hold two bows and use each once in the same round with the attacks granted from BAB.
Or, if you want, you could kick, kick. Or you could kick, kick, kick. Or you could bow, kick. Or you could bow, kick, kick. I don't think anyone here could reasonably deny any of these.
It follows that you would be able to bow, bow, bow.
So for a regular human with +6 BAB, you say it is ok to use one attack to use the bow and one to kick?
What about a regular human who uses one attack to bow and their off-attack to kick?
6 bab is fine. For the second no. Your off attack is consumed in using two hands to use the bow.
Thought this would be helpful, since I dont think I've seen anyone mention it yet.
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
This is not related. Vestigial arms do not follow these rules.
Indeed.
Vestigial Arms are, messy, rules-wise.
Now, combining an attack with a Bow, and an unarmed strike, is a different story.
as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
Now this doesn't care if your weapon was a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon with two hands, or a bow. They all are using two hands to wield, thus consuming your off hand.
Since they made a rule about when you can use an off had it's now in effect. Using a bow and off-hand kick is the same as greatsword and armorspikes, which they specifically disallow.This rule is about wielding, not the weapon type it was.
Nobody was talking about using more than two weapons. Everyone seems to be fixated on Vestigial Arms instead of extra limbs in the general sense.
The reason I'm not discussing it is extra limbs in general sense isn't something that common. still here's what I have on the matter.
if you are playing a race that doesn't normally have 4 arms, and if you shape into one that has 4 arms, you still can't use more than your two hands. If your race has more than 2 arms, or you're using summoner evolution stuff, then you can have more and would be under multiweapon fighting.
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Again, that is specifically against two-handed weapons.
There is a difference between a weapon that requires two hands to use, and a two-handed weapon.
Just like there is a difference between a weapon that requires one hand to use, and an one-handed weapon.
Example: A Dagger requires one hand to use, but is not an one-handed weapon.