Can I ever dual wield Longbows as a human?


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Can I ever dual wield Longbows as a human?


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Each longbow requires two arms to use.


What if I had two vestigial arms?


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No. The following archetype for the ranger allows you to do it;

Bow Nomad:

Thanks to their four arms, kasathas can master a combat form native to their home world and rarely witnessed on Golarion - wielding two bows at once. This archetype is available to kasathas (and to other races with four or more arms at the GM's discretion).
Twin Bows (Ex): At 1st level, a bow nomad can simultaneously wield a combination of two of any of the following ranged weapons: shortbow, longbow, and their composite versions. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a -4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows. Extra attacks from other sources, such as those granted by Manyshot or Rapid Shot, can be applied to only one of the wielded bows per round. This ability replaces wild empathy.

Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd level, a bow nomad must select archery as her combat style.

Agile Maneuvers: At 3rd level, a bow nomad gains Agile Maneuvers as a bonus feat. This replaces Endurance.

Trick Shot (Ex): A bow nomad can make a number of trick shots per day equal to 1/2 her ranger level + her Dexterity modifier. Unless otherwise noted, making a trick shot is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.


  • Deflecting Arrow: At 3rd level, as an immediate action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, a bow nomad can deflect a single ranged attack. This ability functions as the Deflect Arrows feat, except the bow nomad need not have a hand free and can deflect an attack targeting any creature within 30 feet.
  • Hampering Strike: At 8th level, a bow nomad can attempt to disarm or trip an opponent within 30 feet in place of a ranged attack, with a -4 penalty on the combat maneuver check.
  • Pinning Strike: At 13th level, a bow nomad can attempt to pin a Large or smaller opponent's limb or clothing to the ground or a wall in place of an attack. If the bow nomad's attack roll exceeds her opponent's CMD, the opponent is pinned and cannot move from its current position. As a move action, the opponent can attempt a Strength check to free itself (DC = 10 + 1/2 the bow nomad's ranger level + her Strength modifier).
    Only creatures adjacent to a solid, anchored, penetrable surface can be affected by this ability.
  • Exploit the Gap: At 18th level, a bow nomad can exploit the natural weaknesses of her foes. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with her twin bows, each arrow that deals damage in that attack also reduces the target's natural armor bonus (if any) by 1 (to a minimum of o) for 1 round.

This ability replaces favored terrain.

Focused Fire (Ex): At 6th level, the bow nomad must select the Manyshot feat as her 6th-level combat style feat. In addition to the normal benefit of Manyshot, the bow nomad can specify the bow in her off hands as the source of the second arrow (precision damage and critical damage are still only added once). The bow nomad takes no two-weapon penalties when using this ability, but she cannot use it and Two-Weapon Fighting in the same round. The nomad can still choose to use Manyshot in the normal manner. At 11th and 16th level, the bow nomad can apply this ability to each of her iterative attacks. This ability alters the 6th-level combat style feat and replaces camouflage and hide in plain sight.


And so far it is the only way.

Scarab Sages

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Each longbow requires two arms to use.

Two level dip into alchemist.


But would I be able to use two bows even if I had the arms to do so? Especially since vestigial arms says you can't gain any extra attacks from them.


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You could wield both longbows in one hand as improvised clubs. Otherwise, no.

Scarab Sages

Chess Pwn wrote:
But would I be able to use two bows even if I had the arms to do so? Especially since vestigial arms says you can't gain any extra attacks from them.

You can two weapon fight without vestigial arms. Vestigial arms does not grant additional attacks, they do allow you to use two handed weapons, as long as you're willing to eat the massive to-hit penalties.


Artanthos wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
But would I be able to use two bows even if I had the arms to do so? Especially since vestigial arms says you can't gain any extra attacks from them.
You can two weapon fight without vestigial arms. They just allow you to use two handed weapon, as long as you're willing to eat the massive to-hit penalties.

Read and enjoy.

Scarab Sages

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ElMustacho wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
But would I be able to use two bows even if I had the arms to do so? Especially since vestigial arms says you can't gain any extra attacks from them.
You can two weapon fight without vestigial arms. They just allow you to use two handed weapon, as long as you're willing to eat the massive to-hit penalties.
Read and enjoy.

Unless you have a specific comment you want to point out, I'm not interested in reading the entire thread.


Artanthos wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
But would I be able to use two bows even if I had the arms to do so? Especially since vestigial arms says you can't gain any extra attacks from them.
You can two weapon fight without vestigial arms. Vestigial arms does not grant additional attacks, they do allow you to use two handed weapons, as long as you're willing to eat the massive to-hit penalties.

No, I know the rules are clear that I can't two-weapon fight with greatswords with vestigial arms.


Artanthos wrote:
You can two weapon fight without vestigial arms. Vestigial arms does not grant additional attacks, they do allow you to use two handed weapons, as long as you're willing to eat the massive to-hit penalties.

Indeed this very question was brought up in reference to another thread where it was asked if you could do it with ranged weapons because they required two hands to use. The reason it is in question is because it has already been FAQ'd that you specifically cannot use two weapons and two hand them at the same time with this ability.

Edit: All that can really be said in regards to this thread is this. The Devs have ruled that using two hands for a weapon consumes imaginary hands that are not increased when you gain new physical hands. That being said, these imaginary hands are not actually written in core.

So we have to look at the wording from core.

Projectile weapons wrote:
Projectile Weapons: Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Two handed Weapons wrote:
Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon (see FAQ at right for more information.)

From here the only difference we can see is that two handed weapons make a statement about effectiveness, but beyond that they both outright state that both sets of weapons need two hands. Now if the devs are correct and this is in reference to imaginary hands (which if their statements are to have any basis in core at all it has to be, its from the same exact section), then it would be in reference to both sets of weapons as they are literally almost the exact same wording and from the same section of the book.

Weapons


The reason for the "unwritten" rule on THW/TWF is to prevent a player from exceeding the regular 1.5x STR soft-cap on weapon bonus damage during an iterative series. Bows, though used in 2 hands, are only able to use (upto) 1.0x STR mod in bonus damage. Therefore, bows do not use your "off-hand" of effort, though they do use your off-hand of holding.

If you had 2 more hands then you could use your "main" hand of effort, your main hand of holding and one vestigial hand for one bow. Then use your "off-hand" of effort, your off-hand if holding, and one vestigial hand for holding the second bow. The second bow would be limited to .5xSTR mod damage when two-weapon fighting. You would not get the -2 penalty reduction from wielding a light weapon in your "off-hand."


BigDTBone wrote:

The reason for the "unwritten" rule on THW/TWF is to prevent a player from exceeding the regular 1.5x STR soft-cap on weapon bonus damage during an iterative series. Bows, though used in 2 hands, are only able to use (upto) 1.0x STR mod in bonus damage. Therefore, bows do not use your "off-hand" of effort, though they do use your off-hand of holding.

If you had 2 more hands then you could use your "main" hand of effort, your main hand of holding and one vestigial hand for one bow. Then use your "off-hand" of effort, your off-hand if holding, and one vestigial hand for holding the second bow. The second bow would be limited to .5xSTR mod damage when two-weapon fighting. You would not get the -2 penalty reduction from wielding a light weapon in your "off-hand."

Please share where the unwritten rule of THW/TWF is the 1.5xSTR soft-cap. And that bows get around using two hands to wield using vestigial arms while a THW can't.

Also bows get to add your 1xSTR at up to 1000ft. Often you don't use that much but still, 1xSTR at 80ft is really good if you ask me. A medium sized THW couldn't do any STR at that range, even on a 30ft base speed charge.

Scarab Sages

Thomas Long 175 wrote:


Edit: All that can really be said in regards to this thread is this. The Devs have ruled that using two hands for a weapon consumes imaginary hands that are not increased when you gain new physical hands. That being said, these imaginary hands are not actually written in core.

So we have to look at the wording from core.

Projectile weapons wrote:
Projectile Weapons: Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Two handed Weapons wrote:
Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon (see FAQ at right for more information.)
From here the only difference we can see is that two handed weapons make a statement about effectiveness, but beyond that they both outright state that both sets of weapons need two hands. Now if the devs are correct and this is in reference to imaginary hands (which if their statements are to have any basis in core at all it has to be, its from the same exact section), then it would be in reference to both sets of weapons as they are literally almost the exact same wording and from the same section of the book.

Vestigial hands are not imaginary. The character really does have extra hands that can be applied towards holding weapons.

FAQ wrote:

Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?

No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.

The FAQ limiting TWF while using a two-handed weapon does not address characters who physically possess more than two hands.


BigDTBone wrote:

The reason for the "unwritten" rule on THW/TWF is to prevent a player from exceeding the regular 1.5x STR soft-cap on weapon bonus damage during an iterative series. Bows, though used in 2 hands, are only able to use (upto) 1.0x STR mod in bonus damage. Therefore, bows do not use your "off-hand" of effort, though they do use your off-hand of holding.

Even if that was the reasoning that is not what the FAQ states. Your offhand is being used by a weapon (as it specifically states requiring two "hands."), and thus you cannot use it. It is not the strength modifier that uses up your offhand, but the weapon itself.

Their purpose may have been to cap strength bonus but that is not the rule they used.

Edit: And to artanthos. You completely misunderstood my statement. The vestigials are not imaginary. All characters come with 2 imaginary hands per the FAQ. A "main hand" and an "off hand." You can have 100 arms if you wish but you are limited by these 2 imaginary limbs. For manufactured and unarmed of course. Natural attacks follow completely different rules.


The reference to imaginary hands is even if you had 20 actual hands, you can only do things counting up to two hands. This is why you can't use a THW and then use armor spikes or kicks as offhand. You've used your "main" and "off" hands making the 1 attack with the THW. Thus the imaginary is how many hand actions you can take and doesn't care about actual number of hands.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The reference to imaginary hands is even if you had 20 actual hangs, you can only do things counting up to two hands. This is why you can't use a THW and then use armor spikes or kicks as offhand. You've used your "main" and "off" hands making the 1 attack with the THW. Thus the imaginary is how many hand actions you can take and doesn't care about actual number of hands.

Precisely correct. The bow only uses one hand of actions. Otherwise it would get 1.5 x STR mod to damage.

Scarab Sages

Chess Pwn wrote:
The reference to imaginary hands is even if you had 20 actual hangs, you can only do things counting up to two hands. This is why you can't use a THW and then use armor spikes or kicks as offhand. You've used your "main" and "off" hands making the 1 attack with the THW. Thus the imaginary is how many hand actions you can take and doesn't care about actual number of hands.

Please review the relevant FAQ, I quoted it a few posts up.

No mention is made regarding limiting characters possessing more than two hands.


BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The reference to imaginary hands is even if you had 20 actual hangs, you can only do things counting up to two hands. This is why you can't use a THW and then use armor spikes or kicks as offhand. You've used your "main" and "off" hands making the 1 attack with the THW. Thus the imaginary is how many hand actions you can take and doesn't care about actual number of hands.
Precisely correct. The bow only uses one hand of actions. Otherwise it would get 1.5 x STR mod to damage.

Incorrect. It uses two hands because its weapon type specifies it and only grants 1x STR regardless. Your hands are not determined by how much damage it deals but the way you wield a weapon.

In this case a projectile can only be wielded in 1 way. As a weapon requiring two hands.

Edit: Once again to Artanthos, that is in reference to the imaginary hands quoted in another FAQ.


BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The reference to imaginary hands is even if you had 20 actual hangs, you can only do things counting up to two hands. This is why you can't use a THW and then use armor spikes or kicks as offhand. You've used your "main" and "off" hands making the 1 attack with the THW. Thus the imaginary is how many hand actions you can take and doesn't care about actual number of hands.
Precisely correct. The bow only uses one hand of actions. Otherwise it would get 1.5 x STR mod to damage.

No the bow uses 2 hands to wield. Just like a THW so that uses up your main hand and off hand. You've yet to show the main and off hands only refer to 1.5 x str mod. Or that a bow only uses "one hand of action"

artanthos wrote:
No mention is made regarding limiting characters possessing more than two hands.

But neither of the examples used needed more than two-hands to operate. And the line in vestigial arms says it can't grant more attacks. Which means that if you can't get that many attacks with that weapon with two hands it is extra. Like dual wielding greatswords can't be done by a normal two-handed character, thus vestigial arms can't do it either. Same with bows. Now using 4 different light weapons, can a character with two hands make 4 light weapon attacks? eventually yes, so at the point that the two handed person can is the same time the 4 armed guy can use his 4 different weapons.


Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

The reason for the "unwritten" rule on THW/TWF is to prevent a player from exceeding the regular 1.5x STR soft-cap on weapon bonus damage during an iterative series. Bows, though used in 2 hands, are only able to use (upto) 1.0x STR mod in bonus damage. Therefore, bows do not use your "off-hand" of effort, though they do use your off-hand of holding.

If you had 2 more hands then you could use your "main" hand of effort, your main hand of holding and one vestigial hand for one bow. Then use your "off-hand" of effort, your off-hand if holding, and one vestigial hand for holding the second bow. The second bow would be limited to .5xSTR mod damage when two-weapon fighting. You would not get the -2 penalty reduction from wielding a light weapon in your "off-hand."

Please share where the unwritten rule of THW/TWF is the 1.5xSTR soft-cap. And that bows get around using two hands to wield using vestigial arms while a THW can't.

Also bows get to add your 1xSTR at up to 1000ft. Often you don't use that much but still, 1xSTR at 80ft is really good if you ask me. A medium sized THW couldn't do any STR at that range, even on a 30ft base speed charge.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxa3&page=11?Is-this-TWF-combination-legal #537


BigDTBone wrote:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxa3&page=11?Is-this-TWF-combination -legal#537

That same post also says that you can make two melee attacks with twf.

Furthermore he goes on to say that your number of attacks is intended to be limited by "hands."

Edit: Finally, nowhere does he say that the "hands" of an action is implicitly tied with the strength modifier. You'll notice its missing. What he does say is the rule is intended to keep twf from having an inherent damage bonus over two handing.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The reference to imaginary hands is even if you had 20 actual hangs, you can only do things counting up to two hands. This is why you can't use a THW and then use armor spikes or kicks as offhand. You've used your "main" and "off" hands making the 1 attack with the THW. Thus the imaginary is how many hand actions you can take and doesn't care about actual number of hands.
Precisely correct. The bow only uses one hand of actions. Otherwise it would get 1.5 x STR mod to damage.

Incorrect. It uses two hands because its weapon type specifies it and only grants 1x STR regardless. Your hands are not determined by how much damage it deals but the way you wield a weapon.

In this case a projectile can only be wielded in 1 way. As a weapon requiring two hands.

Edit: Once again to Artanthos, that is in reference to the imaginary hands quoted in another FAQ.

What about the "ranged" weapon type requires a weapon to be used in two hands? Bows have that language in their description. The amount of damage is also part of the composite bow description, not from "the way you wield it."

Which, by the way, "the way you wield it" has no meaning for ranged weapons.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxa3&page=11?Is-this-TWF-combination -legal#537

That same post also says that you can make two melee attacks with twf.

Furthermore he goes on to say that your number of attacks is intended to be limited by "hands."

Edit: Finally, nowhere does he say that the "hands" of an action is implicitly tied with the strength modifier. You'll notice its missing. What he does say is the rule is intended to keep twf from having an inherent damage bonus over two handing.

I'm just trying to help you understand the rules here. I don't need to notice anything. You'll notice that bows aren't listed as two-handed weapons on the weapons table and that ends the FAQ debate right there.


BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

The reason for the "unwritten" rule on THW/TWF is to prevent a player from exceeding the regular 1.5x STR soft-cap on weapon bonus damage during an iterative series. Bows, though used in 2 hands, are only able to use (upto) 1.0x STR mod in bonus damage. Therefore, bows do not use your "off-hand" of effort, though they do use your off-hand of holding.

If you had 2 more hands then you could use your "main" hand of effort, your main hand of holding and one vestigial hand for one bow. Then use your "off-hand" of effort, your off-hand if holding, and one vestigial hand for holding the second bow. The second bow would be limited to .5xSTR mod damage when two-weapon fighting. You would not get the -2 penalty reduction from wielding a light weapon in your "off-hand."

Please share where the unwritten rule of THW/TWF is the 1.5xSTR soft-cap. And that bows get around using two hands to wield using vestigial arms while a THW can't.

Also bows get to add your 1xSTR at up to 1000ft. Often you don't use that much but still, 1xSTR at 80ft is really good if you ask me. A medium sized THW couldn't do any STR at that range, even on a 30ft base speed charge.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxa3&page=11?Is-this-TWF-combination-legal #537

Thank you for sharing that unwritten rule.

Nothing in there says that just because a bow is 1x str it gets to ignore the rule that wielding a weapon that takes two hands to wield and it not using your off hand. He gave the reason why it's the rule, and also said that "You shouldn't be able to pile on additional attacks per round just because you can think up additional ... body parts to attack with." like a third and forth arm are additional body parts that you're "attacking" with. Since the weapon needs two hands to wield it's used to attack with that weapon.


BigDTBone wrote:

What about the "ranged" weapon type requires a weapon to be used in two hands? Bows have that language in their description. The amount of damage is also part of the composite bow description, not from "the way you wield it."

Which, by the way, "the way you wield it" has no meaning for ranged weapons.

Just to point out, a ranged weapon can be wielded in melee as an improvised weapon. You can in fact club someone your bow. The act of shaping a stick into a curved stick with a string on it does not make it impossible to beat someone with it :P

In fact, wielding it as an improvised weapon you could dual wield a bow in such a way, as an improvised weapon of course. Or you could two hand it (if your gm thinks a bow is comparable in size to a 1 handed weapon, which if he's ever seen a real longbow he should) and get 1.5 strength bonus, though he'd still be treating it as an improvised weapon.

Honestly, most of your post almost seems to be agreeing with me. It is a ranged weapon. It does 1x Strength because you wield it as a ranged weapon and that is how much this particular projectile weapon gets, when wielded in this fashion. It requires two hands because you are wielding it a ranged weapon which core states requires two hands unless the weapon explicitly states otherwise.


Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The reference to imaginary hands is even if you had 20 actual hangs, you can only do things counting up to two hands. This is why you can't use a THW and then use armor spikes or kicks as offhand. You've used your "main" and "off" hands making the 1 attack with the THW. Thus the imaginary is how many hand actions you can take and doesn't care about actual number of hands.
Precisely correct. The bow only uses one hand of actions. Otherwise it would get 1.5 x STR mod to damage.

No the bow uses 2 hands to wield. Just like a THW so that uses up your main hand and off hand. You've yet to show the main and off hands only refer to 1.5 x str mod. Or that a bow only uses "one hand of action"

artanthos wrote:
No mention is made regarding limiting characters possessing more than two hands.
But neither of the examples used needed more than two-hands to operate. And the line in vestigial arms says it can't grant more attacks. Which means that if you can't get that many attacks with that weapon with two hands it is extra. Like dual wielding greatswords can't be done by a normal two-handed character, thus vestigial arms can't do it either. Same with bows. Now using 4 different light weapons, can a character with two hands make 4 light weapon attacks? eventually yes, so at the point that the two handed person can is the same time the 4 armed guy can use his 4 different weapons.

The bow is not just like a THW. If it was just like a THW you would get 1.5x STR damage. You would be able to use the THW fighter archetype abilities with it.


BigDTBone wrote:
I'm just trying to help you understand the rules here. I don't need to notice anything. You'll notice that bows aren't listed as two-handed weapons on the weapons table and that ends the FAQ debate right there.

Actually it doesn't and if you actually want to participate in a rules debate you need to notice a lot of things. Now drop the rudeness level by a factor of 4.


Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

The reason for the "unwritten" rule on THW/TWF is to prevent a player from exceeding the regular 1.5x STR soft-cap on weapon bonus damage during an iterative series. Bows, though used in 2 hands, are only able to use (upto) 1.0x STR mod in bonus damage. Therefore, bows do not use your "off-hand" of effort, though they do use your off-hand of holding.

If you had 2 more hands then you could use your "main" hand of effort, your main hand of holding and one vestigial hand for one bow. Then use your "off-hand" of effort, your off-hand if holding, and one vestigial hand for holding the second bow. The second bow would be limited to .5xSTR mod damage when two-weapon fighting. You would not get the -2 penalty reduction from wielding a light weapon in your "off-hand."

Please share where the unwritten rule of THW/TWF is the 1.5xSTR soft-cap. And that bows get around using two hands to wield using vestigial arms while a THW can't.

Also bows get to add your 1xSTR at up to 1000ft. Often you don't use that much but still, 1xSTR at 80ft is really good if you ask me. A medium sized THW couldn't do any STR at that range, even on a 30ft base speed charge.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxa3&page=11?Is-this-TWF-combination-legal #537

Thank you for sharing that unwritten rule.

Nothing in there says that just because a bow is 1x str it gets to ignore the rule that wielding a weapon that takes two hands to wield and it not using your off hand. He gave the reason why it's the rule, and also said that "You shouldn't be able to pile on additional attacks per round just because you can think up additional ... body parts to attack with." like a third and forth arm are additional body parts that you're "attacking" with. Since the weapon needs two hands to wield it's used to attack with that weapon.

Your "off-hand" doesn't exist unless you are TWF or using a THW. Bows are not listed on the table under THW, bows are not THW.

It's that simple. I also explained to you why that is the case. If you want to continue to not accept the rules that is fine by me.


BigDTBone wrote:


What about the "ranged" weapon type requires a weapon to be used in two hands? Bows have that language in their description. The amount of damage is also part of the composite bow description, not from "the way you wield it."

Which, by the way, "the way you wield it" has no meaning for ranged weapons.

I'm just trying to help you understand the rules here. I don't need to notice anything. You'll notice that bows aren't listed as two-handed weapons on the weapons table and that ends the FAQ debate right there.

Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions).

Look, if they are saying that you only have "two" hands then doing something that uses two hands uses up both of those "two" hands you have.

Else why would I need extra arms to dual wield bows? Bows just says "You need at least two hands to use a bow." Well my guy has two hands so why not use two bows? I meet the requirements of each of having at least two hands. So why isn't this valid?


BigDTBone wrote:
The bow is not just like a THW. If it was just like a THW you would get 1.5x STR damage. You would be able to use the THW fighter archetype abilities with it.

1) No. The THW fighter archetype only works for things exclusively in the two handed weapon group. Thus even if you wielded things as a two handed weapon they wouldn't count. Your longsword in two hands is not suddenly a two handed weapon. It still will not work for overchop.

2) It still requires two hands, and the 1.5 str mod doesn't matter because that only applies to melee weapons. Unless you wanna claim because crossbows never get a strength mod they take no hands? Can my synthesis summoner get an enormous number of limbs and make as many crossbow attacks as he has limbs because he's only technically limited to natural attacks and by "hands" which according to you are only determined by number of limbs and strength bonus?

No dude. Melee weapons get 1.5 strength bonus due to the way they're wielded and only melee weapons. Longbows get 1x Str because thats part of the weapon, and their weapon type needs 2 hands. "hands" are based off the effort required to wield a weapon. Nowhere is this ever tied directly to the amount of strength multiplier you get on the weapon. Otherwise everything that doesn't get strength multiplier you could wield an infinite (only capped by limbs) amount of

You're not helping anyone Big T. There's been a total of 1 other person that agreed with you so far. Face it, you're wrong.


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No even with extra weapon wielding arms which vestigial arms are not, humanoid body mechanics wont allow it to work. You pull bows across your body much longer than a single arm length. If you do it on the right you can't simultaneously do it on the left.


BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

The reason for the "unwritten" rule on THW/TWF is to prevent a player from exceeding the regular 1.5x STR soft-cap on weapon bonus damage during an iterative series. Bows, though used in 2 hands, are only able to use (upto) 1.0x STR mod in bonus damage. Therefore, bows do not use your "off-hand" of effort, though they do use your off-hand of holding.

If you had 2 more hands then you could use your "main" hand of effort, your main hand of holding and one vestigial hand for one bow. Then use your "off-hand" of effort, your off-hand if holding, and one vestigial hand for holding the second bow. The second bow would be limited to .5xSTR mod damage when two-weapon fighting. You would not get the -2 penalty reduction from wielding a light weapon in your "off-hand."

Please share where the unwritten rule of THW/TWF is the 1.5xSTR soft-cap. And that bows get around using two hands to wield using vestigial arms while a THW can't.

Also bows get to add your 1xSTR at up to 1000ft. Often you don't use that much but still, 1xSTR at 80ft is really good if you ask me. A medium sized THW couldn't do any STR at that range, even on a 30ft base speed charge.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxa3&page=11?Is-this-TWF-combination-legal #537

Thank you for sharing that unwritten rule.

Nothing in there says that just because a bow is 1x str it gets to ignore the rule that wielding a weapon that takes two hands to wield and it not using your off hand. He gave the reason why it's the rule, and also said that "You shouldn't be able to pile on additional attacks per round just because you can think up additional ... body parts to attack with." like a third and forth arm are additional body parts that you're "attacking" with. Since the weapon needs two hands to wield it's used to attack with that weapon.
Your "off-hand" doesn't exist unless you are TWF or using a THW. Bows are not listed on the table under THW,...

Whoa now, where are you getting that your "off-hand" doesn't exist unless you are TWF or using a THW? Anything that uses two hands use your "off-hand"


Gnomezrule wrote:
No even with extra weapon wielding arms which vestigial arms are not, humanoid body mechanics wont allow it to work. You pull bows across your body much longer than a single arm length. If you do it on the right you can't simultaneously do it on the left.

Two weapon fighting doesn't happen simultaneously, so that part isn't a reason. But I do agree with the first part of your first sentence.


If its not simultaneous than rapid and many shot or Zen archer flurry already do this without jumping the shark.


Gnomezrule wrote:
If its not simultaneous than rapid and many shot or Zen archer flurry already do this without jumping the shark.

The thing is I don't care about how many attacks I'm making or the penalties. I'm interested in if I can dual wield and use bows for two-weapon fighting.

Liberty's Edge

Longbows and shortbows no, however I'm still trying to find the vestigial arms and twf faq to figure out if dual wielding crossbows would work, since you can two weapon wield them, but usually can't reload. I have to see if the vestigial arms can reload while your normal arms attack.


Deighton Thrane wrote:
Longbows and shortbows no, however I'm still trying to find the vestigial arms and twf faq to figure out if dual wielding crossbows would work, since you can two weapon wield them, but usually can't reload. I have to see if the vestigial arms can reload while your normal arms attack.

I'd say yes they can reload. They aren't being used to wield a weapon, but assisting by reloading is what I feel they are meant for. Noting super strong or crazy, but helpful. There are spells and other such stuff that does this so I think it'd be a go.

Liberty's Edge

There we go.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5

Actually rereading the vestigial arms entry, I don't think crossbows would work either, since you don't gain extra attacks or actions, meaning even the free action of reloading (eventually) wouldn't work cause you don't even gain free actions with the vestigial arms.


You don't gain extra free actions. SO you can't do two swift or two standard actions. You already are free to reload as a free action if you have a free hand. If it's able to wield a shield for you legal then reloading is fine in my opinion.

Liberty's Edge

Technically, wielding a shield doesn't require an action, but reloading does, so shield works, reloading doesn't.

Silver Crusade

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You people have me so confused I'm not even sure who is arguing what.


I would say if you have an extra set of hands then it could be possible to hold and draw two bows simultaneously and then at that point is up to GM discretion. At the end of the day no matter what is decided in a forum, the GM will always have the final say at their table....


Even with extra arms there are no rules for or against dual wielding anything other than one-handed or light weapons. In 3.5 there was a monster known as an arrow demon that could use two bows at the same time but I think it had a special ability . With that aside considering the damage that archery puts out I doubt many GM's would allow it.


wraithstrike wrote:
Even with extra arms there are no rules for or against dual wielding anything other than one-handed or light weapons. In 3.5 there was a monster known as an arrow demon that could use two bows at the same time but I think it had a special ability . With that aside considering the damage that archery puts out I doubt many GM's would allow it.

There ARE two weapon fighting rules for bows. The Bow Nomad Archetype. "When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a -4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows."


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

vestigial arms basically can do nothing but wield shields as they don't allow you any gained actions.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:
If its not simultaneous than rapid and many shot or Zen archer flurry already do this without jumping the shark.
The thing is I don't care about how many attacks I'm making or the penalties. I'm interested in if I can dual wield and use bows for two-weapon fighting.

If you don't care about extra attacks, then just use two bows without two-weapon fighting. That's perfectly legal.

Scarab Sages

Gnomezrule wrote:
No even with extra weapon wielding arms which vestigial arms are not, humanoid body mechanics wont allow it to work. You pull bows across your body much longer than a single arm length. If you do it on the right you can't simultaneously do it on the left.

There are a lot of real world mechanics that simply don't apply to Pathfinder.

Trying to go down that path is just going to cause you to disagree with a lot of RAW.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

well, I guess you can like hold things in your hands so you don't have to drop or unequip them.

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