It's not leaving RAW for RAI, it's reading in context.
Yeah, RAI. You are adding the what is written (as in Rules As Written). RAW in what's in black and white. RAI is that you think it should say "requires primary and off hand".
I'd put this under house-rule, not RAW.
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This thread is like a freeway accident I cannot look away.
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Sometimes, people will fight these things, and though proven to not be mechanically advantageous, just makes them mad, and will throw out a mass of insults, accusations, and outright mockery.
Also, due to confirmation bias, evidence that disproves there point, will be ignored, or dismissed.
At times, even I have been guilty of this confirmation bias.
I doubt many others will admit to it though.
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The reason I keep pointing to SKR's explanation of the unwritten rules, is that he explains why an attack with a two-handed weapon subsumes your off-hand attack.
Not because it requires two hands, but that gaining an extra attack, that adds an additional x0.5 strength to damage, violates an unwritten rule, that you cannot gain more than x1.5 damage.
The reason I keep pointing to SKR's explanation of the unwritten rules, is that he explains why an attack with a two-handed weapon subsumes your off-hand attack.
Not because it requires two hands, but that gaining an extra attack, that adds an additional x0.5 strength to damage, violates an unwritten rule, that you cannot gain more than x1.5 damage.
Exactly this.
The reason I keep pointing to SKR's explanation of the unwritten rules, is that he explains why an attack with a two-handed weapon subsumes your off-hand attack.
Not because it requires two hands, but that gaining an extra attack, that adds an additional x0.5 strength to damage, violates an unwritten rule, that you cannot gain more than x1.5 damage.
Yep, and a 4 armed creature would have x2.5 damage(main x1 + x1.5 for 3 off hands) so two bows for x2 or 2 THW with x1.5 and x.5 (or x1) would be fine too.
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Also, I am still not for, or against, dual Bows.
I am only saying, that in regards to the restriction on two-handed weapons and two-weapon fighting, I do not see Bows counting as two-handed weapons.
Now, I would have to say, that if a player somehow had multiple arms, he could not make an attack with a Greatsword, and a Bow. The FAQ covers that.
Multiple arms are messy, ruleswise, and I am not going to begin to pretend to fully understand how they work.
It's not leaving RAW for RAI, it's reading in context.Yeah, RAI. You are adding the what is written (as in Rules As Written). RAW in what's in black and white. RAI is that you think it should say "requires primary and off hand".
I'd put this under house-rule, not RAW.
Reading requires reading in context. If you cannot or will not read in context, then you will have trouble with lots of rules in this game.
At 4th level and every four levels after that a fighter can retrain a feat. Now is this any feat or just bonus feats? Reading in context tells you just bonus feats and the FAQ confirms this.
A cleric can convert spells to cure spells. Can a wizard/cleric convert wizard spells to cure spells? Reading in context tells us it only applies to cleric spells and the FAQ confirms.
Sometimes, people will fight these things, and though proven to not be mechanically advantageous, just makes them mad, and will throw out a mass of insults, accusations, and outright mockery.
Also, due to confirmation bias, evidence that disproves there point, will be ignored, or dismissed.
At times, even I have been guilty of this confirmation bias.
I doubt many others will admit to it though.
BBT, your reaction to the bastard sword FAQ was so childish, not only was your account suspended but Paizo wrote new community guidelines explicitly forbidding what you did.
I am not "fighting" anything. I am relating what the rules actually are for the people who come to the rules forum to gain a better understanding of the actual rules. I have backed up my position with direct quotes from the rule book. You have simply repeated "unwritten rules" over and over in between telling me it's my responsibility to prove your interpretation of the rules.
Reading requires reading in context. If you cannot or will not read in context, then you will have trouble with lots of rules in this game.It's not leaving RAW for RAI, it's reading in context.Yeah, RAI. You are adding the what is written (as in Rules As Written). RAW in what's in black and white. RAI is that you think it should say "requires primary and off hand".
I'd put this under house-rule, not RAW.
You are saying that "Two hands are required" means something other than what it actually says. THAT is RAI. That isn't RAW. All the context in can find doesn't change what's actually written on the page.
As far as context: Even if context effected RAW, there is none in the actual rules text for 2 handed weapons. "Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon." You are bringing 'context' from what other weapon types say not from the actual type. You are making a guess at what you thing they meant (RAI) from that.
On "Clearly the hands being referenced are the primary and off hands.": Try looking in the bestiary once, a core book. Multiweapon Fighting "Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)" Multiarmed creatures are assumed possible at core so how is it 'clear' they mean 'primary and off hands' when the say "two hands"? They make a feat for creatures with multiple off hands and say two hands. What's clear is that they said two hands and that's the rule.
The rules I've quoted are not only all from the same page, they were all under one heading. If you cannot follow context for longer than a sentence then that is your failing, not the rules.
The rules I've quoted are not only all from the same page, they were all under one heading. If you cannot follow context for longer than a sentence then that is your failing, not the rules.
Well lets look at that context for a moment. Assume for a moment that I'm right. Does any of the other text you quoted not make sense? Nope! In fact they make just as much sense either way.
So, lets look at the actual text. "two hands". I've got a 4 armed character over here that raises 2 off hands and when I count how many hands he raised, I count 2. Seems like a math problem, not a context one.
SO once again: two handed weapon needing a primary hand not RAW.
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I was under the impression, that the explanation for the subsumed off-hand attack, that it was a metaphorical hand, and not a real hand, and made unavailable, due to the "effort" expended when using a two-handed weapon, as it added x1.5 strength to damage.
Was this not the explanation?
Are we to say that the FAQ reaches beyond that, and makes the off-hand, and actual hand?
Would this not make any non-hand off-hand attack, require an actual hand?
Would this not lead to ruling, such as using a Dagger with two-hands(which gains no benefit) to make off-hand attacks unavailable?
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Reading requires reading in context. If you cannot or will not read in context, then you will have trouble with lots of rules in this game.It's not leaving RAW for RAI, it's reading in context.Yeah, RAI. You are adding the what is written (as in Rules As Written). RAW in what's in black and white. RAI is that you think it should say "requires primary and off hand".
I'd put this under house-rule, not RAW.
The context, in this case, is a set of limitations applied to characters with two hands.
By attempting to apply those restrictions to a character with 3+ hands, you are moving them out of context.
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You know, this has been asked a number of times before.
Not the twin Bow question, but the Bow + two-weapon fighting question.
How about we just create a separate thread, for just that question, and see if we can get a FAQ.
I would rather not muddy the conversation with multiple arms rules.
Seem alright?
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Thread is here.
No matter how sure you are in your opinion, I beg you to go there, and FAQ it.
You may even get the chance to brag, if the FAQ matches your opinion.
Thank you.:)
Originally posted in BBT's thread.
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Crossbow, Hand: You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.
Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
Longbow: At almost 5 feet in height, a longbow is made up of one solid piece of carefully curved wood. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a Strength bonus, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below), but not when you use a regular longbow.
Shortbow: A shortbow is made up of one piece of wood, about 3 feet in length. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a shortbow while mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a shortbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite shortbow (see below), but not a regular shortbow.
Not 'overriding the "need two hands" and two-weapon fighting' per se, but giving special rules for use in TWF. Nothing in "You need two hands to use a bow" prevents TWF as long as you have 3+ hands.
For 2 handed users, it's a grey area. Your off hand isn't taken up as it can still be used for other actions (loading ammo). It'd be nice to know how free/used up that off hand is. It's not like a two handed weapon where you have to keep your hand on the weapon to wield it, but instead you are REQUIRED to keep letting go of it in it's normal use.
Also worth noting, rules for both crossbows and thrown weapons designate whether they are light or one-handed for the purposes of two-weapon fighting. There are no rules for two-weapon fighting with two handed weapons.
Not 'overriding the "need two hands" and two-weapon fighting' per se, but giving special rules for use in TWF. Nothing in "You need two hands to use a bow" prevents TWF as long as you have 3+ hands.
For 2 handed users, it's a grey area. Your off hand isn't taken up as it can still be used for other actions (loading ammo). It'd be nice to know how free/used up that off hand is. It's not like a two handed weapon where you have to keep your hand on the weapon to wield it, but instead you are REQUIRED to keep letting go of it in it's normal use.
Longbows require two hands. If you're two handed, then both hands are taken up if you are using the bow.
Three or more hands can two weapon fight with A bow and any other light or one-handed weapon in any off hands they have left.
Also worth noting, rules for both crossbows and thrown weapons designate whether they are light or one-handed for the purposes of two-weapon fighting. There are no rules for two-weapon fighting with two handed weapons.
Not true. The rules say you take one set of minuses for two weapon fighting and can reduce the minuses by having a light weapon in the off hand. The hit side is complete. the only grey area is damage for double off hand weapon use. If we go by SKR's explanation of the unwritten rules, off hand two handed weapons would deal x1 damage. That's based on two handed x1.5 = one handed x1 + offhand x.5 for 2 hands and one handed x1 + 3x(off hand x.5) = two handed main x1.5 leaving x1 left for off hand two handed for 4 handed use.
Longbows require two hands. If you're two handed, then both hands are taken up if you are using the bow.Not 'overriding the "need two hands" and two-weapon fighting' per se, but giving special rules for use in TWF. Nothing in "You need two hands to use a bow" prevents TWF as long as you have 3+ hands.
For 2 handed users, it's a grey area. Your off hand isn't taken up as it can still be used for other actions (loading ammo). It'd be nice to know how free/used up that off hand is. It's not like a two handed weapon where you have to keep your hand on the weapon to wield it, but instead you are REQUIRED to keep letting go of it in it's normal use.
As I pointed out, this isn't completely true. After every shot you are REQUIRED to use that off hand to reload it, removing the hand from the weapon. Half the time, you only have one hand on it. Not saying that this means an unarmed strike is possible but clearly two handed ranged work differently than two handed ranged.
Also worth noting, rules for both crossbows and thrown weapons designate whether they are light or one-handed for the purposes of two-weapon fighting. There are no rules for two-weapon fighting with two handed weapons.Not true. The rules say you take one set of minuses for two weapon fighting and can reduce the minuses by having a light weapon in the off hand. The hit side is complete. the only grey area is damage for double off hand weapon use. If we go by SKR's explanation of the unwritten rules, off hand two handed weapons would deal x1 damage. That's based on two handed x1.5 = one handed x1 + offhand x.5 for 2 hands and one handed x1 + 3x(off hand x.5) = two handed main x1.5 leaving x1 left for off hand two handed for 4 handed use.
That's your interpretation. Do you have any rules you can quote for two weapon fighting with two-handed weapons? You know, written rules?
As I pointed out, this isn't completely true. After every shot you are REQUIRED to use that off hand to reload it, removing the hand from the weapon. Half the time, you only have one hand on it. Not saying that this means an unarmed strike is possible but clearly two handed ranged work differently than two handed ranged.Longbows require two hands. If you're two handed, then both hands are taken up if you are using the bow.Not 'overriding the "need two hands" and two-weapon fighting' per se, but giving special rules for use in TWF. Nothing in "You need two hands to use a bow" prevents TWF as long as you have 3+ hands.
For 2 handed users, it's a grey area. Your off hand isn't taken up as it can still be used for other actions (loading ammo). It'd be nice to know how free/used up that off hand is. It's not like a two handed weapon where you have to keep your hand on the weapon to wield it, but instead you are REQUIRED to keep letting go of it in it's normal use.
Using a bow requires two hands. Regardless if which hand holds the bow and which hand holds the arrow, both hands are used in using the bow.
stuff...
Dude. I already pointed out the rules. The actual two weapon rules allow it. Just pick up the combat section and point out where any weapon type other than offhand is mentioned. It's right there in black and white.
The rest, I've already said was a grey area but luckily we have a Dev's take on the 'unwritten rules' to figure it out. You know, take the context instead of having an actual rule like you where doing with two hands = primary + offhand. If it's ok for you, it's ok for me. :P
stuff...Dude. I already pointed out the rules. The actual two weapon rules allow it. Just pick up the combat section and point out where any weapon type other than offhand is mentioned. It's right there in black and white.
The rest, I've already said was a grey area but luckily we have a Dev's take on the 'unwritten rules' to figure it out. You know, take the context instead of having an actual rule like you where doing with two hands = primary + offhand. If it's ok for you, it's ok for me. :P
No, I've pointed out the rules. All you've said is that it's not disallowed, but that's not how pathfinder works. If you want to two weapon fight with two-handed weapons (or weapons that require two hands), then you need to show me the rules for it. (Well, your DM really.)
2 things:
Bows are two-handed weapons.
You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. [...]
Saying that once you fired you don't need your arm anymore doesn't matter. It's like trying to make two-weapon fighting happen with a greatsword and a gauntlet because once you hit with your greatsword, you still can free your hand.
AFAIK, every weapon that could be use in a two-weapon fighting style mention their handedness: Firearms are directly categorized as being one-handed firearms while crossbows (same books) mention it in their description, with the penalty you will suffer.
If bows were meant to be used in a two-weapon fighting, be sure they would have let you know.
A 4-armed character could use 2 bows in a full-attack action, but not while two-weapon fighting.
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Actually that is EXACTLY how pathfinder works.
No, I've pointed out the rules. All you've said is that it's not disallowed, but that's not how pathfinder works.
There are a *LOT* of everyday actions and abilities that are assumed to work even though they are not explicitly mentioned in the rules.
We assume the Dead condition stops a character from attacking. Nothing in RAW actually states this.
We assume creatures with a humanoid shape have hands (unless your a humanoid shaped elemental, then for some reason the assumption reverses) even though its not in RAW.
You could write a 10,000 page rulebook and still fail to write rules that covered every possible circumstance. Should the ruling be that EVERY action that does not have a precise, unambiguous answer in RAW is forbiden? If so, you've just removed half the feats and class abilities in the game from play.
2 things:
Bows are two-handed weapons.You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. [...]Saying that once you fired you don't need your arm anymore doesn't matter. It's like trying to make two-weapon fighting happen with a greatsword and a gauntlet because once you hit with your greatsword, you still can free your hand.
AFAIK, every weapon that could be use in a two-weapon fighting style mention their handedness: Firearms are directly categorized as being one-handed firearms while crossbows (same books) mention it in their description, with the penalty you will suffer.
If bows were meant to be used in a two-weapon fighting, be sure they would have let you know.A 4-armed character could use 2 bows in a full-attack action, but not while two-weapon fighting.
need two hands to use != two-handed weapon. For a complete list of two-handed weapons refer to table 6-4 in the CRB. You will notice that longbow and shortbow are not listed as two-handed weapons.
As far as weapons valid for two weapon fighting; it is all weapons not specifically disqualified by the THW/TWF FAQ. The two weapon fighting section in the combat chapter just says: [paraphrase] "Two weapon fighting, you can do it, here are some penalties."
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A 4-armed character could use 2 bows in a full-attack action, but not while two-weapon fighting.
If you mean a naturally 4 armed creature then I'd ask why. two handed weapons and bows require 2 hands to use and 2 off hands qualify.
If bows were meant to be used in a two-weapon fighting, be sure they would have let you know.
As has been said here many times, the book was written with a 'normal' 2 armed humanoid in mind. Wouldn't you agree that having two extra natural arms puts a new spin on them?
Firearms are directly categorized as being one-handed firearms.
And you'll note that firearms aren't directly mentioned as being able to be used in two weapon fighting.
2 things:
Bows are two-handed weapons.You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. [...]Saying that once you fired you don't need your arm anymore doesn't matter. It's like trying to make two-weapon fighting happen with a greatsword and a gauntlet because once you hit with your greatsword, you still can free your hand.
AFAIK, every weapon that could be use in a two-weapon fighting style mention their handedness: Firearms are directly categorized as being one-handed firearms while crossbows (same books) mention it in their description, with the penalty you will suffer.
If bows were meant to be used in a two-weapon fighting, be sure they would have let you know.A 4-armed character could use 2 bows in a full-attack action, but not while two-weapon fighting.
need two hands to use != two-handed weapon. For a complete list of two-handed weapons refer to table 6-4 in the CRB. You will notice that longbow and shortbow are not listed as two-handed weapons.
As far as weapons valid for two weapon fighting; it is all weapons not specifically disqualified by the THW/TWF FAQ. The two weapon fighting section in the combat chapter just says: [paraphrase] "Two weapon fighting, you can do it, here are some penalties."
So just to be clear, you feel that two-handed weapons are disqualified from two weapon fighting because they are Two-Handed Weapons and not because they require two hands to use?