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Or the Rogue is just a plain badly-designed class and to nerf the Slayer down to its level would produce two badly-designed classes rather than one good class and one poor class.
The Slayer didn't destroy the Rogue. That was done long ago, between the Bard, the Alchemist, and the Inquisitor.
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Given that the rogue is the weakest class in the game, this is a good thing. Essentially the components of the rogue concept have been seperated into different classes. Want to be a stealthy assasin, play a ninja, want to be an int based sherklock holmes type, play an investigator. Want to be the dashing fencer, play a swashbuckler, and if you want to be a back alley murderer, play a slayer. All of these classes hold up better against the rest of the game then the rogue does. The rogue being the least effective class in the game, shouldnt be the yardstick by which all skilled characters are judged.
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Just for fun i created a lvl 13 Slayer to compare with my lvl 13 Rogue. I used same base stat, same gear and same combat style (Dex two weapon fighting)
The Slayer is just superior in combat. Full BAB gives him more attacks per round with higher hit chances. He lose some dice of sneak dammage but it is largely compensated by the hit/dmg bonuses he gets from studied target. He also has better saving throws and they are boosted again by studied target.
Skillwise he loses trapfinding but he has access to it from a talent. He has a little bit less skill points and different class skills but again this is compensated by studied target.
He has access to almost all good rogue talents and he gets new ones.
Like if that was not enough the Stygian Slayer archetype was added:
-Invisibility more than once per day for a single talent: no talent better than that anyway.
-The ability to use wand and staff to cast some extremely useful spells as a caster: you lose some small bonuses to a few skills.
-The ability to cast BOTH gaseous form and fog cloud on yourself for 7 minutes per day for a single talent: no talent better than that anyway...
-You lose medium and heavy armor but if you are dex based, most of the time you do not use these to keep your dex bonus.
With you so far. The Slayer is just plain better than the rogue. It's not better than other classes though; just the rogue. Because the rogue is weak.
Conclusion: This class should have been given 3/4 BAB like the rogue
Disagree. The rogue is not the yardstick for a balanced class.
Conclusion: Just ask your GM if you can retroactively convert all your rogue levels to Slayer levels.
... what? Seriously, what? Is that English? Can I get a tongues over here? Comprehend languages at least?
Please, for the love of all that's holy, use spell check!
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Sounds like your Paladin and Barbarian are either badly made or badly played then.
Without being able to look in on your game in more detail, I'm not sure how you're pulling that off. Every rogue we've had in ours has lagged behind the rest of the party significantly, and there's a LOT of evidence on the forums of other groups doing likewise, as well as mechanical examination of its failings.
Add to that that every trick the rogue has, another class - Bard, Ninja, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Ranger, Slayer, etc. etc. etc. - either has it and can do it better, or has something that does the same general thing and does it better, and you can start to see where it has problems.
The only thing the Rogue has going for it are skills... and with Pathfinder consolidating the skills and opening them up to other classes more, doubly so if you use Traits, that's not really all that much of an advantage.
that´s why the Classes has diferent experience advancement in the old days from AD&D
there was 4 groups from where all the classes are attached
Rogue (Rogue, ninja, bard, assassin)
Priest (monk, cleric, druid)
Warrior (fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger, samuray
Wizard (mage, illusionist, specialist and so)rogue 1250
priest 1500
warrior 2000
wizard 2500...
Unfortunately even this example of 'balance' is misleading. I don't have the reference in front of me (in fact the only 1st Ed book I still have is the DMG) but I know that it was tough to get a Wizard to Level 2, but *easy* to gain levels once you hit about 7th. That is to say, it was hard to level and hard to survive as a baby Wizzie, but you rocket past every other class at the time that the wizard really comes into his power levels. Although, Rogues never struggled with levels ;) They were always low cost :p
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Or the Rogue is just a plain badly-designed class and to nerf the Slayer down to its level would produce two badly-designed classes rather than one good class and one poor class.
The Slayer didn't destroy the Rogue. That was done long ago, between the Bard, the Alchemist, and the Inquisitor.
I dont understand why people keep saying the rogue is bad. At lvl 13 i have more AC than the Barbarian and Paladin in my group and i rarely lose the bonus.
I also outdamage them by a very large margin. 5 attacks doing 6d6+4 dmg each for 200dmg possible per round...
I took 3 lvl of shadowdancer for hide in plain sight and the flank partner. The only time i can't do sneak dmg is when the target is immune: rarely.
On top of very nice combat abilities rogues get many skill points to play with, just icing on the cake.
People say it because its true. If a rogue has a better ac then the paladin and is out damaging the barbarian, the rogues system mastery is way above that of the other players. Also possible damage and average damage are very different things. Those 6d6+4 damage represent 25 damage on average, so a 125 damage, not 200, and thats offset by your frequency to hit, which is less then the raging barbarian by a large margin. His 2d6+alot damage a hit means a heck of alot more when actual statistics are concerned, and he doesnt have to rely on positioning or circumstance (getting sneak attack) to do his damage, he just rages.
And yes the rogue gets lots of skills. But so do lots of other classes, who get significantly more in the area of other class abilities then the rogue does.
I am not saying rogues are worthless, or that people shouldnt play them. But particularly in the area of their combat ability, they dont hold up under equal amounts of optimization to any of the other martial classes. So they shouldnt be the yardstick by which new classes are judged.
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Unfortunately even this example of 'balance' is misleading. I don't have the reference in front of me (in fact the only 1st Ed book I still have is the DMG) but I know that it was tough to get a Wizard to Level 2, but *easy* to gain levels once you hit about 7th. That is to say, it was hard to level and hard to survive as a baby Wizzie, but you rocket past every other class at the time that the wizard really comes into his power levels. Although, Rogues never struggled with levels ;) They were always low cost :pthat´s why the Classes has diferent experience advancement in the old days from AD&D
there was 4 groups from where all the classes are attached
Rogue (Rogue, ninja, bard, assassin)
Priest (monk, cleric, druid)
Warrior (fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger, samuray
Wizard (mage, illusionist, specialist and so)rogue 1250
priest 1500
warrior 2000
wizard 2500...
There is also the fact that levels mean something different in the current system then they did in previous ones. The intent of the rules is that levels should be roughly equal in capability (hence level being the way CR is assigned, not class). But they arent. The solution to that is not to throw any math the system has out the window by keeping different classes on different levels. The answer is to finish balancing the classes so levels of different classes are roughly equivalent.
I am truly sorry, English is not my native language and my spell check is not configured for English. Hope everything is at least understandable...... what? Seriously, what? Is that English? Can I get a tongues over here? Comprehend languages at least?
Please, for the love of all that's holy, use spell check!
Your posts are fine. Juda's the one I was confused by.
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New classes, same old arguement
Well Slayer doesn't get Evasion until level 10. and you lose the opportunity to pick another talent. well it could be better at level 13.
Sounds like your Paladin and Barbarian are either badly made or badly played then.
Without being able to look in on your game in more detail, I'm not sure how you're pulling that off. Every rogue we've had in ours has lagged behind the rest of the party significantly, and there's a LOT of evidence on the forums of other groups doing likewise, as well as mechanical examination of its failings.
Rogue with greater two weapon fighting and/or boots of speed and/or a speed weapon has 5-6 attacks on a full round. Base weapon damage 1d6+4 when sneaking(i am using swords of dubtlety). Base sneak damage 5d6 per attack. So total 6d6+4 per attack time 5 attacks = 50-200 dmg per round. It can even be higher if you add two weapon rend (1d10+1 1/2str per round). I might be wrong but i doubt any other melee class (outside a Slayer) can reach that...
Yes there are other classes that get many skills but none get that high dmg and defense. And not many get trapfinding and trapspoter.
Not sure what swords of dubtlety are, but is the high AC you have from Rogue class features, or GP? I can't think of any besides the Offensive Defense talent, and even that isn't much. Also, how is the lay of the map during your combats? Are there a lot of small rooms where full attacks are easy to come by?
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Rogue with greater two weapon fighting and/or boots of speed and/or a speed weapon has 5-6 attacks on a full round. Base weapon damage 1d6+4 when sneaking(i am using swords of dubtlety). Base sneak damage 5d6 per attack. So total 6d6+4 per attack time 5 attacks = 50-200 dmg per round. It can even be higher if you add two weapon rend (1d10+1 1/2str per round). I might be wrong but i doubt any other melee class (outside a Slayer) can reach that...Yes there are other classes that get many skills but none get that high dmg and defense. And not many get trapfinding and trapspoter.
If you account for average damage, and the % to hit, then yes, most melee classes can match that.
From the dpr olypmics threads:
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
Plug the rogues bonus to hit against a target of level+13 AC and compare that with the same result of a raging barbarian, and its no contest. The rogue rolls lots of dice, the barbarian does more damage, by a big margin.
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Not sure what swords of dubtlety are, but is the high AC you have from Rogue class features, or GP? I can't think of any besides the Offensive Defense talent, and even that isn't much. Also, how is the lay of the map during your combats? Are there a lot of small rooms where full attacks are easy to come by?
He means swords of subtlety.
This isn't like an online video game where the developers can rework a class or character archetype and patch it. Erratas cannot make big sweeping changes because they're limited by space, wordcount, and when the book will go to print. If a class is poorly designed, the best Paizo can do is introduce new options for it or introduce better classes/archetypes that enable similar character concepts.
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A thing to consider is that people want to play the concept of a rogue: a sneaky character who lies, steals, cheats and fights dirty. Who doesn't have to answer to a higher authority.
You don't really need the actual rogue class for that. It can do that, but so can a lot of other classes. A barbarian with a trait to gain Stealth as a class skill can do that. An urban ranger does it well. Monks are good at it. Dipping into the Shadowdancer prestige class means that just about anyone can do it well.
The rogue class has a name that suggests that it should be the rogue. Just like the fighter's class name suggests that it should be the the class that fights. Or the "magic-user" be the one to cast spells.
I view Rogue as a role in the party, just like Healer, Tank, Artillery and so forth. That role can be fulfilled by many classes.
And now we have the Slayer, who's really very well-suited to it. The old rogue class is no longer needed.
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The rogue class does have one use however: for a player who wants to play on "Hard Mode".
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Sounds like your Paladin and Barbarian are either badly made or badly played then.
Without being able to look in on your game in more detail, I'm not sure how you're pulling that off. Every rogue we've had in ours has lagged behind the rest of the party significantly, and there's a LOT of evidence on the forums of other groups doing likewise, as well as mechanical examination of its failings.
Rogue with greater two weapon fighting and/or boots of speed and/or a speed weapon has 5-6 attacks on a full round. Base weapon damage 1d6+4 when sneaking(i am using swords of dubtlety). Base sneak damage 5d6 per attack. So total 6d6+4 per attack time 5 attacks = 50-200 dmg per round. It can even be higher if you add two weapon rend (1d10+1 1/2str per round). I might be wrong but i doubt any other melee class (outside a Slayer) can reach that...
Yes there are other classes that get many skills but none get that high dmg and defense. And not many get trapfinding and trapspoter.
You can't assume you get a Full Attack + Sneak Attack away every round. Melee classes get to make full attacks seldom enough, and it'll be even less often that you get to both flank something and not have to move more than 5'.
Even then, there are plenty of enemies with immunity to sneak attack, including anyone with concealment from any source (even if you take Shadow Strike, you still can't Sneak Attack targets with total concealment). Fortification effects also give a chance to ignore Sneak Attack damage. If you do manage to crit, Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied.
Just hitting is a problem, as a class with 3/4 BAB and no class feature to improve that. Every single other class with 3/4 or Full BAB has a class feature to improve their to-hit rolls. You'll be even worse off if you're taking TWF penalties.
Just getting into melee will start to be a problem, as your Acrobatics rolls will start to be unreliable against the CMD of higher level creatures. Then once you're in melee your poor Fortitude save becomes a liability: If the creature is described as especially smelly, once you get close you can expect to roll a Fortitude save to not be Sickened by it. There's another -2 to hit. Many enemies have poison, disease, or even energy drain riders on their melee attacks. And if you do manage to get the Full Sneak Attack away and manage to hit, you're the new priority target for all that nastiness.
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Just for fun i created a lvl 13 Slayer to compare with my lvl 13 Rogue. I used same base stat, same gear and same combat style (Dex two weapon fighting)
The Slayer is just superior in combat. Full BAB gives him more attacks per round with higher hit chances. He lose some dice of sneak dammage but it is largely compensated by the hit/dmg bonuses he gets from studied target. He also has better saving throws and they are boosted again by studied target.
Skillwise he loses trapfinding but he has access to it from a talent. He has a little bit less skill points and different class skills but again this is compensated by studied target.
He has access to almost all good rogue talents and he gets new ones.
Like if that was not enough the Stygian Slayer archetype was added:
-Invisibility more than once per day for a single talent: no talent better than that anyway.
-The ability to use wand and staff to cast some extremely useful spells as a caster: you lose some small bonuses to a few skills.
-The ability to cast BOTH gaseous form and fog cloud on yourself for 7 minutes per day for a single talent: no talent better than that anyway...
-You lose medium and heavy armor but if you are dex based, most of the time you do not use these to keep your dex bonus.Conclusion: This class should have been given 3/4 BAB like the rogue
I say the opposite, the Rogue should be Full BAB. Even at full BAB the rogue would be weaker than the Slayer. The rogue is the weakest class in the game, don't measure against it. I don't really see the slayer replacing a rogue anymore than the ranger did.
-_-
I don't want to tear into you or anything, but there's a number of reasons why your anecdote isn't exactly a good representation of the rogue.
I dont understand why people keep saying the rogue is bad.
...
I took 3 lvl of shadowdancer for hide in plain sight and the flank partner.
You aren't fully rogue. Shadowdancer is definitely an improvement over normal rogue (incorporeal flank partner and early hide in plain sight).
I also outdamage them by a very large margin. 5 attacks doing 6d6+4 dmg each for 200dmg possible per round...
First, "possible damage" is hardly something you'll see on a regular basis. Before we even look at landing the hits, your average damage comes to 125 (5x 25 avg per hit), and that's assuming all hits land normally. Running quick math in my head, and you are probably looking at closer to ~60 damage per round against most CR13 or so ACs (~30).
Full BAB classes are either getting more attacks than you (TWF+Haste is 7 attacks for full BAB), more damage than you (Power Attack can give +12 damage alone at this level). All while having a higher chance to hit level appropriate AC.
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Now, maybe you are playing with casually built full bab classes. Or maybe you haven't paid attention to the misses and only really seen the big hits landing. Or perhaps your DM loves throwing lower AC targets against your party.
Whatever the case, your anecdote doesn't follow the average experience by the numbers alone let alone the actual player experience.
The Slayer getting full BAB really does help bring it head and shoulders over the combat-focused Rogue.
Sounds like your Paladin and Barbarian are either badly made or badly played then.
Without being able to look in on your game in more detail, I'm not sure how you're pulling that off. Every rogue we've had in ours has lagged behind the rest of the party significantly, and there's a LOT of evidence on the forums of other groups doing likewise, as well as mechanical examination of its failings.
Rogue with greater two weapon fighting and/or boots of speed and/or a speed weapon has 5-6 attacks on a full round. Base weapon damage 1d6+4 when sneaking(i am using swords of dubtlety). Base sneak damage 5d6 per attack. So total 6d6+4 per attack time 5 attacks = 50-200 dmg per round. It can even be higher if you add two weapon rend (1d10+1 1/2str per round). I might be wrong but i doubt any other melee class (outside a Slayer) can reach that...
Yes there are other classes that get many skills but none get that high dmg and defense. And not many get trapfinding and trapspoter.
My barbarian does 140-228 damage a round assuming all my attacks hit which they won't. Starting with a +31 to hit which means I can actually hit CR appropriate encounters with an AC of 38. For defense my AC is 28 with 8 DR and a crap load of hit points that probably double a rogues. There's a fighter in the game that out damages me using the Two Handed Weapon fighter and he has a 34 AC in Full Plate.
Two swords of subtlety? Well then... I guess the twohander guy can just get a +2 frost shock flaming greatsword and do 5d6 damage plus what.. 20-30 damage from power attack and rage strength or smite? Per hit. Even not looking at hit chance, you are looking at 140-240 damage at lvl 13.
And when you do reduce the average damage by hit chance, the twohander has a higher hit chance anyways, so he still wins out.
Also, a lvl 13 rogue doesn't get access to Greater Two Weapon Fighting.
Two swords of subtlety? Well then... I guess the twohander guy can just get a +2 frost shock flaming greatsword and do 5d6 damage plus what.. 20-30 damage from power attack and rage strength or smite? Per hit. Even not looking at hit chance, you are looking at 140-240 damage at lvl 13
Just going to point out, that set of enhancements is a bad idea. For the same price you're way better off with a straight +5.
In my home games I just give rogues the various alchemist poison abilities. It's a nice simple upgrade to make them more worthwhile.
Two swords of subtlety? Well then... I guess the twohander guy can just get a +2 frost shock flaming greatsword and do 5d6 damage plus what.. 20-30 damage from power attack and rage strength or smite? Per hit. Even not looking at hit chance, you are looking at 140-240 damage at lvl 13.
And when you do reduce the average damage by hit chance, the twohander has a higher hit chance anyways, so he still wins out.
Also, a lvl 13 rogue doesn't get access to Greater Two Weapon Fighting.
I do believe a weapon enchanted with frost shock and flaming can only have one of those effect active at a time, also there is better ways to improive your damage than stack elmental damage d6s. A speed enchantment doubles a two-handed weapons primary attack damage output, while it only adds little over 50% for a TWFer
Two swords of subtlety? Well then... I guess the twohander guy can just get a +2 frost shock flaming greatsword and do 5d6 damage plus what.. 20-30 damage from power attack and rage strength or smite? Per hit. Even not looking at hit chance, you are looking at 140-240 damage at lvl 13Just going to point out, that set of enhancements is a bad idea. For the same price you're way better off with a straight +5.
It was mostly to give a similar comparison in damage and cost. I wouldn't normally go that route myself either.
Naw, there's no rule limiting how many elementals you can have going at once
I do believe a weapon enchanted with frost shock and flaming can only have one of those effect active at a time, also there is better ways to improive your damage than stack elmental damage d6s. A speed enchantment doubles a two-handed weapons primary attack damage output, while it only adds little over 50% for a TWFer
Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given.
The last sentence is in every one of these effects' descriptions, and i read it as such that you command it to become flaming, it becomes flaming, then you command it to become frosty, it stops being flaming and becomes frosty.
Even if you can activate them all at once, doing so is a Standard Action. Into the trash they all go.
Just for fun i created a lvl 13 Slayer to compare with my lvl 13 Rogue. I used same base stat, same gear and same combat style (Dex two weapon fighting)
The Slayer is just superior in combat. Full BAB gives him more attacks per round with higher hit chances. He lose some dice of sneak dammage but it is largely compensated by the hit/dmg bonuses he gets from studied target. He also has better saving throws and they are boosted again by studied target.
Skillwise he loses trapfinding but he has access to it from a talent. He has a little bit less skill points and different class skills but again this is compensated by studied target.
He has access to almost all good rogue talents and he gets new ones.
Like if that was not enough the Stygian Slayer archetype was added:
-Invisibility more than once per day for a single talent: no talent better than that anyway.
-The ability to use wand and staff to cast some extremely useful spells as a caster: you lose some small bonuses to a few skills.
-The ability to cast BOTH gaseous form and fog cloud on yourself for 7 minutes per day for a single talent: no talent better than that anyway...
-You lose medium and heavy armor but if you are dex based, most of the time you do not use these to keep your dex bonus.
It's a powerful class. I believe the Gaseous Form/Fog Cloud abilityis a 1 minute per level / per day ability? Not just 7 minutes per day.
Conclusion: This class should have been given 3/4 BAB like the rogue
Or the Rogue should have been introduced in PF as a full BAB class to begin with. The only other 3/4 BAB characters in the game have significant magical or alchemical abilities to make up for a weaker BAB. Except the Monk, I guess, but even they get full BAB with Flurry of Blows.
How do you use this formula to account for the number of attacks? Examples welcome. Thanks.
Rogue with greater two weapon fighting and/or boots of speed and/or a speed weapon has 5-6 attacks on a full round. Base weapon damage 1d6+4 when sneaking(i am using swords of dubtlety). Base sneak damage 5d6 per attack. So total 6d6+4 per attack time 5 attacks = 50-200 dmg per round. It can even be higher if you add two weapon rend (1d10+1 1/2str per round). I might be wrong but i doubt any other melee class (outside a Slayer) can reach that...Yes there are other classes that get many skills but none get that high dmg and defense. And not many get trapfinding and trapspoter.
If you account for average damage, and the % to hit, then yes, most melee classes can match that.
From the dpr olypmics threads:
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.Plug the rogues bonus to hit against a target of level+13 AC and compare that with the same result of a raging barbarian, and its no contest. The rogue rolls lots of dice, the barbarian does more damage, by a big margin.
Its additive. Each attack is its own plug into that equation. Obviously iterative attacks may have differnt % to hit, off hand attacks might do different damage, adjust as needed for the attack routine in question.
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Conclusion: This class should have been given 3/4 BAB like the rogue
No. One useless class is more than enough. There is no point in downgrading everyone to Rogue's level of ineffectiveness.
If the Rogue serves as an excuse to nerf perfectly balanced classes, then the Rogue is at fault and should be ignored.
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I think of it this way ... they finally errata'd the rogue. It's now called 'the slayer'.