In case it hasn't been mentioned before, Zen Archers are very easy to build effectively and pretty hard to screw up. If your GM has limits on magic items or plays a low build-point game, then their Wisdom to bows makes them all the better relatively speaking.
(Note that this doesn't necessarily make them the highest damage dealers out there- I'll leave that to the DPR wizards.)
A 20th level Inquisitor +15 to hit, deadly aim lowers it, most Inquisitor stuff gives bonuses to damage and not hit. Seeing what your to hit looks like to see the relevance of the damage.20th level inquisitor attack bonus:
BAB: 15
Dex: 10 (30 Dex is easy to obtain)
Weapon Focus: +1
Deadly Aim: -4
Rapid Shot: -2
Judgement of Justice: +5
Bane: +2
Weapon Enchantment: +3
Heroism: +2
Divine Favor: +3
Total: +35And that's with only sacred, luck and morale bonuses on the attack roll.
And since the inquisitor only has to get his bow to a +3 to get through all DR that a +5 can get through, he can spend the remaining 2 levels of bonuses to add other fun stuff to it to do more damage.
His example was using destruction for judgements for the extra damage. With divine favor he would buffing for 4 rounds for short term bonuses. So +27? Average AC for a 20 CR mob is about 38. He could change his judgements.
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Let me preface that I read these forums a lot and have come to value your opinion so please don't think I am just trying to be obstinate.
I understand that I can't influence what type of bane a weapon is, but from the spell it seems that I can influence what the enemies type is.
I wasn't trying to imply that I was changing the type of bane, but changing the type of enemy. My understanding, and the source of my argument, is as follows.Instant enemy allows a character to:
" Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes"Say I have aberration as one of my favored enemy types and I cast this spell on an elf. I may now treat that elf as "that type of favored enemy for all purposes" or that I may now treat the elf as an aberration for all purposes.
Now what is preventing me as a player (under the catch all of for all...
OK, if that is how you believe it should work, that the target is treated as your hated race for ALL purposes, then I hope you are ready to adjust his stats, immunities, hit dice, senses, etc to match that type. Lets say your favored enemy is an Elf. Than that enemy should now get elf resistance to enchantment, increased DEX, be effected by spells that only effect Elves from any source. so on and so on and so on. Why, because all of those fit into the "For ALL purposes" part of the sentence.
Obviously that is not the intent. The intent is that any ability you have that affects your favored enemy affect the target of the spell. Not ability your weapon has, ability the target has, ability the neighbor has. The abilities YOU have.EDIT: Dangit Emmit, you took my reply and said it better than me.
ZA monk gets weapon specialization +2 at level 6.
Didn't know manyshot and rapid shot could be used in the same turn. Still thinking 3.5 I guess.
Arcane Strike might be used by arcane spell casters.
I think you're doing weapon training and gloves wrong. Gloves add 2, not double. And Bane adds 2 to damage.
I came up with a list of unique static damage, extra dice and number of attacks the classes we discussed can access.
I'm not taking into account haste nor feats everybody can get. I'm counting though, rapid shot and manyshot due to monk flurry)
Wm Fighter: 6 attacks (4+RS+MS) / +14dmg (10 weapon training + gloves + WS+GWS)
ZA Monk:7 attacks flurry / 2d10 weapon dmg or an additional flurry.
Sohei Monk: 9 attacks (flurry+RS+MS) / +6dmg (3weapon training+gloves)
Ranger: 6 attacks (4+RS+MS) / +10dmg (instant favored enemy) / 2d6 weapon damage (gravity bow)
Pally: 6 attacks (4+RS+MS) / +23dmg (smite + divine favor)
Cavalier: 6 attacks (4+RS+MS) / +20dmg (challenge)
Inquisitor: 5 attacks (3+RS+MS) / +5 dmg (judgement of justice) +4d6 superior bane -
Did I get anything wrong? I think this helps better seeing what each class brings to table
Nice list! Do you happen to have the attack/to hit bonuses for each of those?
Inquisitor can hit vs touch AC within 30fts
Hammer the Gap, monks can get a bit more damage out of the feat.
Zen Archer at 1st level is not easy to play as you don't get your wisdom stat for your bow yet and so are relying on a reduced dexterity bonus. Higher levels yes, they're really good but a low levels they have a definite problem hitting stuff in combat.
I'm playing a zen Archer currently in Skull and Shackles, low levels were still easy. I didn't use my bow much, I relied on my STR and unarmed strike more.
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Fighters win the "Most Damaging Archer" contest because of their attack bonuses. Their static damage is excellent, and much more consistent than that of any other classes (and w/o any preparation required), but fighter attack bonuses are the deal breaker.
Instant enemy is sweet, but it comes late to the table and costs 9K per pearl to re-use that spell - and it only affects a single target. You spend your 9K GP increments on pearls, while the fighter spends theirs on Gloves of Dueling and more bow bonuses
Paladins are obviously awesome against evil targets, but against neutral targets they are very meh.
Zen archers are extremely powerful characters and very durable, but they can't keep up with a fighter's damage.
Inquisitor is OK, but they need prep time to be effective (at least effective on the same plane as a fighter), and inquisitors are starting our behind all of the full BAB characters before they start casting (as far as BAB-related attack bonuses and BAB-related iterative attacks).
The downside? Fighter Archers are going to suck in most skill and out-of-combat situations. And their Saving Throws pretty much suck. Their extra feats do open up a few options here, but they are never going to be confused with a skill monkey.
Fighters are a one trick pony - but that pony is going to win that race for damage!
15th level ZA monk.
240,000 gp
Gear:
50,000 gp +5 bow
32,000 +4 Ring of protection
25,000 +5 Cloak of Resistance
13,000 Monk Robe
5,000 Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
12,000 boots of speed
32,000 +6 headband of wisdom
38,000 +6 belt of strength, +2 Dex, +2 Con
25,000 ring of evasion
2,000 gps left.
base attack 13/13/8/8/3/3 + 13 Wis + 5 bow + 1 WF -2 DA +1 haste = 31/31/31/26/26/21/21
Damage 2d10 + 4 DA +2 WS +5 Bow +5 Str = 27
Average damage if they all hit = 189 a round.
AC: 10,+4 RoP, +5 Nat, +5 Monk, +1 haste, +3 dex, +13 Wis, +1 Dodge, +1 hat = 43 with MA it's 47.
Saves:
Fort 9 + 3 Con + 5 Cloak = 17
Ref 9 + 3 Dex + 5 Cloak =17
Will 9 + 13 Wis + 5 Cloak = 27
Guys, so far I`m not counting items (other than the gloves for those with weapon training) because I'm assuming everybody will get a +5 bow (or +2/3 and complete the rest with features such as Sohei's ki strike) and get their attributes to the top.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nrbLavMR4vMX_1QyO7hqfcTePdAK4W7Le_h eoNTfBYk/edit?usp=sharing
Assumptions:
* 20 point-buy
* All classes but paladin: 10-20-10-10-15-7
* Paladin: 10-20-10-09-10-14
* +2 to Main attribute (dex for all except for the monks, which are Wis)
* All ability score increases go to the main stat.
* Rapid Shot and Manyshot are taken by all except by Zen Archer Monk
* Evangelist of Erastil included just to see when it's beneficial to go this route or not.
My general starting stat bonuses for comparison are +2 damage (14 STR with composite bow) and +4 attack (18 DEX or WIS for monk). Like you, I don't usually bother with stacking the same items, since I'm interested in how the classes compare. I often don't bother doing the ability score increases from leveling and magic items, unless one class is somehow going to be different from another. If all the classes buy the same items at the same level, it just becomes noise in the class-to-class breakout.
Like you, I only ever count class-specific magic items. So far, this has been Gloves of Dueling for the fighter and Monk's Robe for the Zen Archer (since the Zen Archer can spend a ki point to increase damage to that of his unarmed strike). Up through 12th level, though, the Zen Archer is usually better off taking that Ki point for the additional attack, so the Monk's robe has less of an impact. After 12th level, it might be a better trade-off--I haven't broken it down that far.
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Let me preface that I read these forums a lot and have come to value your opinion so please don't think I am just trying to be obstinate.
I understand that I can't influence what type of bane a weapon is, but from the spell it seems that I can influence what the enemies type is.
I wasn't trying to imply that I was changing the type of bane, but changing the type of enemy. My understanding, and the source of my argument, is as follows.Instant enemy allows a character to:
" Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes"Say I have aberration as one of my favored enemy types and I cast this spell on an elf. I may now treat that elf as "that type of favored enemy for all purposes" or that I may now treat the elf as an aberration for all purposes.
Now what is preventing me as a player (under the catch all of for all...
I don't understand this discussion. The spell specifically affects you. It does not change the type of the creature (that is why it does not have a save) neither affect your weapon.
You can consider that creature as the type of your favored enemy. But even if you consider that creature to be (whatever) for all purposes, your weapon does not.
You could, for example, with Favored Enemy (Animal) use a Charm Animal with your enemy, even if it is an aberration. That is why i think that it says "for all purposes".
But your weapon is not you. And there is not an specific mention of it in the text. So its properties are unchanged.
Fighters win the "Most Damaging Archer" contest because of their attack bonuses. Their static damage is excellent, and much more consistent than that of any other classes (and w/o any preparation required), but fighter attack bonuses are the deal breaker.
...
Fighters are a one trick pony - but that pony is going to win that race for damage!
you have any data to back that up? Or you just assuming?
Guys, so far I`m not counting items (other than the gloves for those with weapon training) because I'm assuming everybody will get a +5 bow (or +2/3 and complete the rest with features such as Sohei's ki strike) and get their attributes to the top.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nrbLavMR4vMX_1QyO7hqfcTePdAK4W7Le_h eoNTfBYk/edit?usp=sharing
Assumptions:
* 20 point-buy
* All classes but paladin: 10-20-10-10-15-7
* Paladin: 10-20-10-09-10-14
* +2 to Main attribute (dex for all except for the monks, which are Wis)
* All ability score increases go to the main stat.
* Rapid Shot and Manyshot are taken by all except by Zen Archer Monk
* Evangelist of Erastil included just to see when it's beneficial to go this route or not.
My general starting stat bonuses for comparison are +2 damage (14 STR with composite bow) and +4 attack (18 DEX or WIS for monk). Like you, I don't usually bother with stacking the same items, since I'm interested in how the classes compare. I often don't bother doing the ability score increases from leveling and magic items, unless one class is somehow going to be different from another. If all the classes buy the same items at the same level, it just becomes noise in the class-to-class breakout.
Like you, I only ever count class-specific magic items. So far, this has been Gloves of Dueling for the fighter and Monk's Robe for the Zen Archer (since the Zen Archer can spend a ki point to increase damage to that of his unarmed strike). Up through 12th level, though, the Zen Archer is usually better off taking that Ki point for the additional attack, so the Monk's robe has less of an impact. After 12th level, it might be a better trade-off--I haven't broken it down that far.
I'm confused on your statement. If you have more attacks, then all the magic items etc becomes more important. An extra attack of 2d10+16 damage is better additive than 2d10 no? It will skew your results.
BTW at higher levels using unarmed damage is better than the extra attack, a possible 45.5 (7*6.5) damage is better than a possible 1d8+16 (20.5) damage. And haste (boots of speed) gets you and extra attack same as if you used a ki point. 11-12 is when a monk should pick up a monk belt, easily afforded and goes nicely with the boots of speed, before that extra attacks are generally better.
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15th level ZA monk.
2,000 gps left.
base attack 13/13/8/8/3/3 + 13 Wis + 5 bow + 1 WF -2 DA +1 haste = 31/31/31/26/26/21/21
Damage 2d10 + 4 DA +2 WS +5 Bow +5 Str = 27
Average damage if they all hit = 189 a round.
You seem to have given your ZA a Wisdom of 36, which is a pretty high (impossible) score for level 15. I think you can get to a 29, which is a +9 bonus.
That makes your attack bonuses much more pedestrian:
27/27/27/22/22/17/17
Just looking at the "extra" bonuses to hit and damage that only a fighter can get @ level 15 (since that was the most recent Zen Archer posted):
Weapon Training w/ Gloves of Dueling: +6/+6
Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization (ZA’s get the base version of both): +1/+2
That means that the fighter will be at least +7 better on attack (all of his attacks actually have a decent chance to hit!) and the +8 damage basically equals the STR belt and 2d10 base damage of the ZA (give or take) for your "average" damage per hit.
Bigdaddyjug: You can't have more than one judgement up at once. The inquisitor guy was talking about having greater invisibility, heroism, divine power up, and now from you having divine favour up for the most damage.
Argus: sorry something didn't seem right, just tired I guess sorry for not double checking. Throw together an archer fighter at 15th level, I'm sure I'd miss something.
Just depends on the rules. DPR Olympics rules most ppl go by say you can only have buffs that are 10mins per level. You get one full round action. So Inquisitor could have the Heroism up and activate Bane or Judgements.
That means that the fighter will be at least +7 better on attack (all of his attacks actually have a decent chance to hit!) and the +8 damage basically equals the STR belt and 2d10 base damage of the ZA (give or take) for your "average" damage per hit.
You have numbers to support this? I see a lot of theory here.
Bigdaddyjug: You can't have more than one judgement up at once. The inquisitor guy was talking about having greater invisibility, heroism, divine power up, and now from you having divine favour up for the most damage.
Argus: sorry something didn't seem right, just tired I guess sorry for not double checking. Throw together an archer fighter at 15th level, I'm sure I'd miss something.
At level 8, an inquisitor can have 2 judgements active at the same time. At level 16, this goes up to 3. At level 20, he gets 3 judgements at the same time and for 1 of them he counts as 5 levels higher for its effectiveness.
I was the one upthread who posted a long post showing how easy it is for an inquisitor to get a crazy high attack bonus, and the only buffs I used were divine favor, heroism, judgements, and Bane.
@Slacker: All I need is 1 full round to buff before I turn into a howitzer on my inquisitor. Bane and Judgements are both swift actions, and one of my buffs is a 10 (20!) minute per level spell.
I was looking on the boards, sorry, it's stated plainly in the inquisitors abilities. Maybe they were talking about low levels.
@Slacker: All I need is 1 full round to buff before I turn into a howitzer on my inquisitor. Bane and Judgements are both swift actions, and one of my buffs is a 10 (20!) minute per level spell.
You dont have to preach to me the power of Inquisitors. I get it.
I was just saying the generally accepted rules from the DPR thread. A cleric can become a beast with 4 rounds of buffing. So where do you put the line of buff time? DPR olympics created a standard. That first round a fighter could be charging with vital strike, or your damage would have to equal two rounds of a Zen Archer since he is going to full round that first round. I posted a link to the rules if you want to check it out.
EDIT:
Yeah, you only get 1 judgement at a time up to level 8. Level 8 is where an inquisitor archer really starts to shine bcause, depending on how you read the Bane/Greater Bane abilities and the Bane Baldric wondrous item, it's possible to get access to Greater Bane at level 7.
This I disagree with, but thats for another thread.
I've seen the DPR Olympics thread. I thought I remembered the rulls being 10 minute per level spells plus 1 round to buff. If those were the rules, that's all an inquisitor needs.
No class will be allowed any in-combat rounds to set up. Buffs are part of your baseline if you can apply them yourself, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action.
Named bullet allow hit vs touch AC within 30ft.
Iquisitor can cast litany spell to double the damage vs evil creatures.
Fighter is a more regular class 1-20 but inquisitor is a rocket after lv 10
Named bullet allow hit vs touch AC within 30ft.
Iquisitor can cast litany spell to double the damage vs evil creatures.Fighter is a more regular class 1-20 but inquisitor is a rocket after lv 10
Litany doesnt work for Inquisitors unless you multiclass.
Ok, time out. We are talking about the Highest DPR Archer. That is going to be the Zen Archer10/Evangelist10(Erastil) combo now. Sorry Sohei8/Fighter12. That is, according to the DPR Olympics rules. I haven't compared the Inquisitor DPR so Im not sure exactly where he stands.
That being said. I think the Inquisitor is probably the strongest class in the game. This is my opinion on what I value. They can do everything. They are in the discussion when it comes to damage. They have 6 levels of casting. 6+ Skill points and class abilities to add to these checks. They still have d8 Hit Dice along with Medium armor and shield proficiencies, which means you won't get one shotted.
It works normally without multiclass, see the rules.
It works normally without multiclass, see the rules.
Link? I dont see a new FAQ on it.
Read the "detectar evil" spell to know how the auras work.
Calling down a litany of anathema, you make an evil more susceptible to the attacks of good creatures. If the target is evil, it takes double damage from attacks made by creatures with a good aura (from a class feature or as a creature with the good subtype). If the target also has the evil subtype; when it is hit with attacks made by creatures with a good aura, it is also dazzled for 1d4 rounds. If this spell targets a nonevil creature (or one that lacks the evil subtype), it has no effect, and the spell is wasted.
It says in the spell that you have to have class feature or Good subtype. Detect Evil (I assume that the spell you are referring to) does nothing to dispute this.
Calling down a litany of anathema, you make an evil more susceptible to the attacks of good creatures. If the target is evil, it takes double damage from attacks made by creatures with a good aura (from a class feature or as a creature with the good subtype). If the target also has the evil subtype; when it is hit with attacks made by creatures with a good aura, it is also dazzled for 1d4 rounds. If this spell targets a nonevil creature (or one that lacks the evil subtype), it has no effect, and the spell is wasted.It says in the spell that you have to have class feature or Good subtype. Detect Evil (I assume that the spell you are referring to) does nothing to dispute this.
If you read the Paladin class feature Aura of Good you wil see that it doesn´t give you a good aura, it only says that your aura is equal your class level.
Aura of good says: "see Detect Good"
Detect Good says: "see Detect Evil"
Detect Evil show that every Aligned creature HD 5+ has an Aura.
If you think that only a "class feature" can active this spell so Paladins can´t use either.
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Paladins have "Aura of Good" as a class feature. How does that not qualify?
Doesnt matter if you have an aura. The Spell requires you to have it from a class feature OR have the Good Subtype. Nothing about detect evil spell comes into play.
I'm all for RAW but this is ridiculous.
Undone,
None of what he posted is relevant. The spell calls out the requirements for benefit: You have to have the Aura Class Feature (doesn't matter if you have an aura) OR you have to have the Good Subtype.
Based on the fact that Inquisitors have Litany of Righteousness on their spell list, but do not have an Aura of Good class feature, and the fact that, according to Detect Evil, creatures that merely have Good as part of their alignment cast a Good aura, I would be of the opinion that any creature that has the Good alignment could benefit from the spell.
That's definitely not RAW, since it definitely does specify that the aura must be from a class feature or the Good subtype, but it seems RAI to me.
That would be a house rule.
You can cast this spell as an Inquisitor and other people with Aura class feature still get to benefit. Its very possible that the RAI was for Inquisitors to be able to benefit from this spell and it was a mistake. It could also be RAI that clerics should have gotten the spell, not inquisitors. Its come up plenty of times. Im sure the Devs are aware of it. Like so many other things, i doubt the Devs will chime in and tell us their intent.